DEATH BURIAL RESURRECTION TIMELINE (2 questions)

[JudahYAHites]

I have been considering these two questions.

With scriptural referenced answers;

1. What day did Mary, Mary and Salome buy and prepare the ointments for the body of YaHushuWaH aka Jesus?
2. What day did the chief priests and the Pharisees speak with Pilate and get security for the tomb ?

(Not interested in adhominems these are two straightforward questions if you cannot or will not deal with the questions at hand please do not answer and muddy the waters. Thanks)

 

[FollowingHim]

Assuming the three days and nights in the grave (the sign of Jonah) is literally true, the only way that can work in my understanding is if the crucifixion was on a Wednesday, prior to a Passover special sabbath on the Thursday, with the resurrection occurring Saturday evening and only being discovered Sunday morning. That is three nights in the grave (Wed, Thu, Fri) and three days (Thu, Fri, Sat). If correct, this would mean (1) the ointments were purchased and prepared on the Friday, then stored over the Saturday sabbath ready to be used early Sunday morning. (2) No idea when the chief priests and Pharisees spoke to Pilate, there are options as they might have been happy having this conversation on a sabbath, I doubt it matters much.

Of course, that is only if we must interpret the sign of Jonah literally. If not, a Friday crucifixion works. The ladies may have acquired what they needed late that afternoon and prepared it either that evening, very early Sunday morning, or on the sabbath believing that this was not "work" but rather service to God. And the priests could have spoken to the Romans on Saturday, again deciding this was not "work" as it's just a conversation.

A spanner in the works is that the present Jewish calendar has a floating passover Sabbath so would work for the first proposal above, which requires two sabbaths in one week. But the Qumran calendar is set up such that every Sabbath feast falls on a weekly Sabbath. I don't think we know what calendar was in use at the time, but I would suspect it would be closer to the Qumran calendar, given that was written at the time, rather than the modern Jewish one which is further removed from that time. If it was the Qumran one then the first option is impossible, and only the Friday-Sunday traditional understanding is possible.

Either way makes no difference ultimately but it's an interesting question to ponder.

 

[Mark C]

Pretty good, Samuel, but I'm not sure that...

...Either way makes no difference ultimately but it's an interesting question to ponder.

And, given the now-historic animosity (described in Constantine's Sword, et al) between the Roman church and rabbinic judaism, BOTH of which seem to have "changed times and seasons" to "effect the separation" - I won't ignore that there are plenty of reasons to argue about dates.

A spanner in the works is that the present Jewish calendar has a floating passover Sabbath so would work for the first proposal above, which requires two sabbaths in one week.

This is actually the primary proof of what I contend must be the 'correct timetable.' (And that's not really at all how I'd phrase what they do anyway.)

It is notable that "two Sabbaths in one week" confuses the you-know-what out of most of mainstream christianity, but it should not. {Rashi commented on it quite a bit, centuries ago.) But one way to understand what is "obvious in hindsight" is that there is a "Weekly Sabbath," and a "high sabbath," or set-apart, holy day, associated with the other times when YHVH says "don't work." (And, even there, it's important to read the Word carefully. They are NOT all the same.)

 

[Mark C]

BTW, I contend that this part of what you wrote is [almost ] quite correct, of course:

Assuming the three days and nights in the grave (the sign of Jonah) is literally true, the only way that can work in my understanding is if the crucifixion was on a Wednesday, prior to a Passover special sabbath on the Thursday, with the resurrection occurring Saturday evening and only being discovered Sunday morning. That is three nights in the grave (Wed, Thu, Fri) and three days (Thu, Fri, Sat). If correct, this would mean (1) the ointments were purchased and prepared on the Friday, then stored over the Saturday sabbath ready to be used...

...probably right after sundown, at the end of the Sabbath...

Which is NOT quite

...early Sunday morning.

except by a sundown-to-sundown reckoning.


So, as for (2) - later that Wednesday, perhaps while He was still hanging, but probably before it was dark.

 

[FollowingHim]

"Ready to be used early Sunday morning" is correct, as that is when the women actually visited the tomb ("on the first day of the week, very early in the morning"), and were planning to use the spices. They might have been preparing them Saturday evening, but it was so they were ready to be used Sunday morning.

 

[Earth_is-]

This is a good illustration from a book I purchased last year. Since our Messiah said "3 nights" it had to of been before Saturday nightfall.

Scripture says that when the two women visited his tomb very early Sunday morning - it was already empty. That doesn't mean He rose right before they came. He could had risen many hours before they arrived.

 

[FollowingHim]

Why does that chart have both Thursday and Friday listed as high sabbaths @Earth_is-? What specific scriptural sabbaths is it referring to?

 

[Earth_is-]

Didn't notice that. But here's the author's explanation of how he came to three sabbaths that week:


I believe the "High Sabbath" he referred to in John 19:31 was actually referring to the Feast of the Unleavened Bead Sabbath (on Thursday). John 19:31 is usually translated to Special or Great Sabbath - which is closer to the Greek rendering.

So two total Sabbaths during that week. On Thursday (Feast of Unleavened Bread), and then of course the weekly Sabbath on Saturday.

 

[FollowingHim]

Yes, it must. I had always interpreted the text as meaning that the Passover was a sabbath, one day, then the feast of unleavened bread occurred, and on the seventh day at the end of the feast was a second sabbath, also one day long. But I see on closer inspection that the text may mean the first day of the feast itself is a sabbath also, making two sabbaths in a row as in your chart. Not sure which is more correct.

 

[Mark C]

A spanner in the works is that the present Jewish calendar has a floating passover Sabbath so would work for the first proposal above, which requires two sabbaths in one week.

Yes, it must. I had always interpreted the text as meaning that the Passover was a sabbath, one day, then the feast of unleavened bread occurred, and on the seventh day at the end of the feast was a second sabbath, also one day long. But I see on closer inspection that the text may mean the first day of the feast itself is a sabbath also, making two sabbaths in a row as in your chart. Not sure which is more correct.

I see the confusion, but it is slightly different.

The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread itself (i.e., Thursday of THAT week) is a "High Holy Day" (no regular work) and that follows the Seder ('Passover meal') itself "between the evenings."

The day of First Fruits is the day AFTER the regular weekly Sabbath that week, which would have been 'sunday' that week, and (by my reading which you now see) is always on a sunday. In fact, it often coincides (but not this year by most reckonings) with the 'Resurrection Day' observations. Since it is, thus, First Fruits, and He was the focus as that, I have no problem with the dating.

The 'fifty-day countdown' thus begins on the sunday after Passover. Which means Shavuot also always falls on the first day of the week.

But it does lead to two important points. Rashi, among others, but prominently, reads the "day after the Sabbath," in the text to mean the day after the 'high holy day' of that week, as opposed to the regular weekly Sabbath. (I think he got that wrong, and the reason might well be that conflict with the RCC. Elsewhere, he/they are careful to distinguish between a weekly Sabbath, and the moed, or High Day, specified by YHVH.)

Which leads to the second point. "First Fruits," while a Biblical 'set-apart day' of YHVH is NOT specified as a day of "no work." Nor is it identified specifically as one of the three "Feasts of Ascension" (where all the men would return to, essentially, Jerusalem; Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot.) Although likely most would still be there, anyway.


Oh, one more note: Because of 'calendar confusion' over the centuries, and the Diaspora (scattering, across time zones, etc) the Hillel, or Rabbinic, or Diaspora Calendar (commonly used, seen on published calendars) calculates dates for the Feasts. But most "traditional jews" I know then celebrate the major High Holy Days (especially Pesach) by doing them for TWO days in a row, just to make sure not to miss it...

 

[FollowingHim]

The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread itself (i.e., Thursday of THAT week) is a "High Holy Day" (no regular work) and that follows the Seder ('Passover meal') itself "between the evenings."

Thankyou. So I am right in understanding that there should be only one high sabbath at the beginning of the feast, not two high sabbaths - Passover itself not being a sabbath but occurring at the beginning (evening) of the first day of the Feast, which is a sabbath?

The day of First Fruits is the day AFTER the regular weekly Sabbath that week, which would have been 'sunday' that week

I like your explanation, but before I just accept it because I like it - I thought that First Fruits was the day after the last sabbath of the feast of unleavened bread. Can you clarify from scripture where it says it is the day after the regular weekly sabbath?

 

[Mark C]

Thankyou. So I am right in understanding that there should be only one high sabbath at the beginning of the feast, not two high sabbaths - Passover itself not being a sabbath but occurring at the beginning (evening) of the first day of the Feast, which is a sabbath?

The confusion usually involves calling something the 'day' of Pesach. It's actually a special meal, followed by a week of eating unleavened bread, book-ended by a High Day on each end.

The seder meal (the one Yahushua celebrated with His disciples had to be a day early, for the obvious reason) is eaten at evening on the day before the "High Holy Day" that marks Day One of the "Feast of Unleavened Bread." The final day is also a 'high day'.

Meanwhile, Bikkurim, or First Fruits will be on the 'First Day' (of the week - i.e., 'sun-day') that falls IN that week. After the first High Holy day, and the day after the Sabbath within it.

That starts the countdown, toward Shavuout (50 days later, also on a First Day.)

I like your explanation, but before I just accept it because I like it - I thought that First Fruits was the day after the last sabbath of the feast of unleavened bread. Can you clarify from scripture where it says it is the day after the regular weekly sabbath?

Leviticus 23. At verse 10, the text says, "on the morrow after the sabbath..."

The question is 'which?' Rashi, again, says that means the "High Day" whereas I go with those who interpret it to mean the day after the regular, weekly, Sabbath. The latter places Bikkurim always on a First Day.

I can see your confusion, but I've never heard anyone (or any history) that says it wasn't the one IN the week of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

[Mark C]

PS> Most orthodox, rabbinic, reformed jews go with Rashi.

 

[JudahYAHites]