Defending our lifestyle to the elders

[MamaManson]

Hello all. So our family of 10 has been attending nondenominational christian church. We have a husband 2 wives and 7 children. We were open about our family before we began attending. I had emailed the pastor. The elders have called us to a meeting letting us know they want to be accommodating to our family and have us attend and worship but do not agree with our lifestyle choice and need us to not draw attention to our unique structure.

They have decided we need to meet because we want our children dedicated and baptized. They said they would like to teach us as well as are open to being taught in biblical terms of how we justify our choices.

I know my calling from God. But I'm not as good with biblical references and remember exact scripture so I was hoping you all might be able to help us find some scriptures to support our strengths. As well as some translation understand or conversation that could open their eyes a bit.

 

[UntoldGlory]

Pretty good start of things with that church actually, I really hope it turns out well!


Anyway, Samuel has a great, not too long article that does a great job of presenting a Biblical view of marriage here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/agtxwdxllrqc0 ... b.pdf?dl=0


That has apparently proven too long for some, so you might find my own notes handy as well, which have less interpretation, but are therefore less pages at first glance. That can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OBH ... sp=sharing


Either way, if they throw any arguments at you, please share. We can help you research it out, and I'm curious to hear what kind of arguments they bring.

 

[aineo]

One thing I would keep in mind is that you don't have to address their concerns as they say them. If they bring a point to your attention, and you don't now how to answer it, it is okay to write their point down and tell them you wish to research their point and discuss it more at a later time.

Whatever you do, not let yourself be sucked into a debate where you feel you have to answer all questions immediately. If they question this, just simply state, "I think you would agree, it is best that we fully explore what the Bible says without making hasty decisions. I respect what you have said, but I will now go and pray about this and study this out. Afterwards I would be happy to discuss it more with you." If they ask if something makes sense or if you agree with it, it is okay to say, "I am not prepared to answer that without further study and prayer on my part."

If it were me, at the second visit I would begin by asking, "You would agree that we are to be guided by the Bible, correct?" If they say yes, then just say, "Great, I suspected so, but I needed to be sure we are on the same page before we dive into this further." At this point you can bring your counter points, backed up by scripture, and offer them the same courtesy they did you by telling them they should go study this out before you meet a third time.

Candidly, if someone studies this out, the Bible simply does not support an anti-polygyny stance. This may be a great opportunity to help them understand something they have never taken the time to study out. I agree with UntoldGlory, it seems you are already leaps and bounds ahead of most polygynist families who attempt to find a church body that will accept them.

 

[ylop]

Hello Mamamanson.

Thanks for sharing about your situation and I hope to hear lots more about your journey.

Here is my suggestion: don't be worried about whether or not you have the right answers. You have already searched the scriptures and prayed, so be strong in your own position.

Cheers,

ylop

 

[Wesley]

I agree that the situation sounds encouraging but it could still go South pretty quickly.

An example would be a former pastor of mine made a similar offer but then, once we actually got together, he pointed to Matthew 19:9 stating that it prohibits polygyny (it does not) and when I pointed out that the passage only prohibits serial monogamy, not polygyny, he just repeated "This is truth!" over and over again as though he had made some kind of point.

I agreed with him that the scripture is truth. We didn't agree about what it says.

Be careful going into this. Not everyone is capable of rational discussion on the subject of polygyny no matter how they represent themselves in the invitation to the get-together.

 

[PolyPride]

Hello all. So our family of 10 has been attending nondenominational christian church. We have a husband 2 wives and 7 children. We were open about our family before we began attending. I had emailed the pastor. The elders have called us to a meeting letting us know they want to be accommodating to our family and have us attend and worship but do not agree with our lifestyle choice and need us to not draw attention to our unique structure.

They have decided we need to meet because we want our children dedicated and baptized. They said they would like to teach us as well as are open to being taught in biblical terms of how we justify our choices.

I know my calling from God. But I'm not as good with biblical references and remember exact scripture so I was hoping you all might be able to help us find some scriptures to support our strengths. As well as some translation understand or conversation that could open their eyes a bit.

Hi MamaManson. This is an important topic and one that's probably not focused on as much by Christian polygamy-supporters. I'm not a Christian but I have discussed/debated Christians (including Catholics) and non-believers on polygamy. To have an effective conversation, your approach matters almost as much as the validity of your points.

From my experience, a poor approach would be going through every point used to support polygamy and monogamy, but this often involves a lot information and it tends to get unorganized, messy, and things get overlooked, etc. It's not that this approach won't work but it's just not the most effective at reaching those who don't buy into polygamy. I would only move on to other various points gradually or at least after my strongest point is acknowledge/accepted.

From my experience, a good approach would be starting with your strongest point and address the other side's strongest point. So that means not only do you have to know Scripture to support your strong points but you also have to be well aware of the Scripture used by the monogamy-only crowd to support their strong points. Once I present my strong point, then most likely the monogamy-only crowd will begin to doubt or question their monogamy-only position or at least find one problem with it (IF they are reasonable and assuming I'm right) or they'll deny it and try end talking to you.

So they want Scripture that shows that polygamy is morally justified? The strongest passage I've used has been Genesis 29:30-33. This passage clearly shows God supporting a polygamous relationship since He was concerned about a man 'not' loving TWO wives. This led to His perfectly moral ACTIONS (remember God is all-good and perfect) to help both women to conceive children and which would then increase the overall love/satisfaction in the relationship.

 

[UntoldGlory]

I like the approach, but I'd choose a different verse to lead with. My reasoning is that in the passages you stated it was his first wife that was unloved so God defended (yes the story continues on, but we're keeping things short). Anti-poly types are pretty big on what they think the Bible "implies", and could say this "implies" that while God loved Rachel as well, he was supporting Leah as the 1st and "valid" wife.

I'd personally recommend 2nd Chronicles 24:2-4 "Joash did what was pleasing in the LORD's sight throughout the life of Jehoiada the priest. Jehoiada chose two wives for Joash, and he had sons and daughters.

This shows a few things, 1) The high priest didn't think it was sinful 2) It was pleasing in the LORD's sight, and 3) It produced valid heirs and offspring.

There really aren't any valid arguments against it. I had one person say "Well maybe it was the Priest's sin then, not Joash's!" but that is even weaker than the average anti-poly argument.

 

[PolyPride]

I like the approach, but I'd choose a different verse to lead with. My reasoning is that in the passages you stated it was his first wife that was unloved so God defended (yes the story continues on, but we're keeping things short). Anti-poly types are pretty big on what they think the Bible "implies", and could say this "implies" that while God loved Rachel as well, he was supporting Leah as the 1st and "valid" wife.

Genesis 30:22-24 should fix that (just in case she decides to use the passage I referred to)...
22 Then God remembered Rachel; he listened to her and enabled her to conceive. 23 She became pregnant and gave birth to a son and said, “God has taken away my disgrace"

This is in addition to Genesis 29:31-32 shows God helped Rachel and not just Leah.

I'd personally recommend 2nd Chronicles 24:2-4 "Joash did what was pleasing in the LORD's sight throughout the life of Jehoiada the priest. Jehoiada chose two wives for Joash, and he had sons and daughters.

This shows a few things, 1) The high priest didn't think it was sinful 2) It was pleasing in the LORD's sight, and 3) It produced valid heirs and offspring.

There really aren't any valid arguments against it. I had one person say "Well maybe it was the Priest's sin then, not Joash's!" but that is even weaker than the average anti-poly argument.

Great verse. It is more simple and easier to reason from! Thanks for that!!

 

[Wesley]

I don't normally bother with trying to convince them. Convincing them is the Holy Spirit's job not mine. If I care enough about them to even discuss the topic then I work to discredit their arguments rather than bothering with presenting endorsements.

The freedom of Christ (Galatians 5:1) is all the endorsement that I need. On that basis I make it an issue of them finding evidence that proves it to be sinful rather than bothering myself with finding endorsements. Then I shoot holes in their arguments about why it is sinful. The arguments are so lacking in biblical support that it's not hard to shoot holes in them.

The most common arguments that I've encountered are that Christ changed the rules or the "Adam & Eve not Adam, Eve and Evelyn" arguments.

The answer to Christ changing the rules is simply to ask where? Show me the verse. They can't because He didn't.

• Some of their attempts...
  1. Matthew 19:9: Answer = This verse prohibits divorce AND remarriage not either/or, it prohibits serial monogamy not polygamy
  2. Christ only has one bride, the church: Answer = The Bible discusses numerous churches...
     1. Seven churches in the province of Asia (Revelation 2 & 3)
     2. The church at Corinth is another bride (2 Corinthians 11:2) so that's eight
     3. Jerusalem and Samria are two more brides (Ezekiel 23) so that's ten
     4. Christ only has one body but that one body has many parts (1 Corinthians 12) which means many churches/brides, and yes, we are allowed to follow that example
  3. Adam & Eve: Answer = The story of Adam & Eve is history not law. We don't make law from history. There is plenty of history about idolatry in the Bible. Are you saying that God's ideal is for us to worship silver idols because that history is recorded in the Bible?
  4. All of the polygamous marriages in the Bible were screwed up: Answer = Eve was disobedient. Mary was disowned by her Son. (Matthew 12:48) Find me a monogamous marriage in the Bible that wasn't just as screwed up. Does the book of Hosea condemn monogamy?
  5. Think about what it will do to the children: Answer = Judah, Benjamin, Asher, Reuben, Gad, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, and Joseph seem to have done pretty well in God's eyes. (Revelation 7:1-8)
  6. If they try the legalism of human rules, laws or doctrines then I just point out 1 Timothy 4:1-3 and the fact that there is no exception listed that differentiates between types of marriage such as polygamous vs monogamous.
  In short, no matter what they say they will be directly contradicting the Bible and all we have to do is point that out.

 

[PolyPride]

Wesley,

I just wanted to add a little to your point in your last post, the first 2 or 3 sentences about convincing people. I believe that non-Mormon Christians are not doing enough activism or enough in trying to reach people (in churches, in the courtroom, in colleges, public forums/debates, etc. ) about polygamy. Look at the progress gay supporters are making in science, legally, etc.

I believe we can convince people on 'polygamy' with or without the Holy Spirit, although it should always be a positive to have the His help. I speak from experience because this is not a salvation issue and I've been able to convince both believers and non believers that the Bible approves of polygamy.

I certainly hope that no one really believes that it's a sin to try to convince people. I'm certain that trying to convince people by going into their territory and trying to reach them whether it be in the court system, in colleges, in churches, in public forums/debates, etc.. would advance the acceptance of polygamy faster than just participating on one website.

 

[Wesley]

Since I was directly addressed I will directly respond.

Wesley,

I just wanted to add a little to your point in your last post, the first 2 or 3 sentences about convincing people. I believe that non-Mormon Christians are not doing enough activism or enough in trying to reach people (in churches, in the courtroom, in colleges, public forums/debates, etc. ) about polygamy. Look at the progress gay supporters are making in science, legally, etc.

I disagree. Christian polygamy has existed in the US since before the US did. It can be traced through the birth records. I discovered it when my mom and I were researching our family tree. It wasn't until the Mormons showed up and started knocking on people's doors with their proselytization that it became an issue.

Think about this, do you like the idea of having a Jehovah's Witness come knocking on your door? If the answer is 'no' then perhaps we should realize that the same rule applies to us.

Matthew 7:6 also gives us guidance on how to deal with people who either don't care about the teachings of Christ ("pigs") or choose to use them for their own selfish purposes. ("dogs")

I believe we can convince people on 'polygamy' with or without the Holy Spirit, although it should always be a positive to have the His help. I speak from experience because this is not a salvation issue and I've been able to convince both believers and non believers that the Bible approves of polygamy.

We definitely disagree on this point. Human understanding will always fail in the long run. It may appear successful in the short term but offers no long term solutions. Only the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives us hope of actually accomplishing anything positive.

I certainly hope that no one really believes that it's a sin to try to convince people. I'm certain that trying to convince people by going into their territory and trying to reach them whether it be in the court system, in colleges, in churches, in public forums/debates, etc.. would advance the acceptance of polygamy faster than just participating on one website.

A sin?

I think that may be overstating it a bit but it definitely is not smart to try to coerce people into listening to something that they don't want to listen to. Our best teaching tool for the masses is the example that we set not our words. We should not hide who we are. I have never implied that. Shoving it into people's faces isn't going to get us anything but a repeat of the Mormon wars however. We must learn from the mistakes of the past or else we will be doomed to repeat them.

 

[PolyPride]

Since I was directly addressed I will directly respond.

Nothing personal, Wesley. Just saying if polygamists dont want to face being shunned by family, Churches, and society then you going to have to explain or even fight for your lifestyle.

I disagree. Christian polygamy has existed in the US since before the US did. It can be traced through the birth records. I discovered it when my mom and I were researching our family tree. It wasn't until the Mormons showed up and started knocking on people's doors with their proselytization that it became an issue.

I did not make any comments about when or how polygamy existed so I'm not sure what it is that youre disagreeing with me on.

Think about this, do you like the idea of having a Jehovah's Witness come knocking on your door? If the answer is 'no' then perhaps we should realize that the same rule applies to us.

Well there are many ways to reach people other than showing up on their doorstep. Gay supporters have been having success by doing things other than knocking on people's doors. The author of this thread/topic simply showed up to a Church with her polygamous family and now she has been given a chance to justify polygamy using the Bible.

Matthew 7:6 also gives us guidance on how to deal with people who either don't care about the teachings of Christ ("pigs") or choose to use them for their own selfish purposes. ("dogs")

Not everyone who disagree with polygamy do so out of not caring for Jesus' teachings. Convincing people is not always going to be as easy as swooping in, trying to teach or lecture them and expecting them to gobble up your every word. Sometimes it takes time, like if you have to answer all their questions/objections, then they have to meditate or think more about it, etc.

We definitely disagree on this point. Human understanding will always fail in the long run. It may appear successful in the short term but offers no long term solutions. Only the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives us hope of actually accomplishing anything positive.

Did you need the Holy Spirit to convince you that the Earth has water? For the same reason, i dont need the Holy Spirit to see the simple logic and facts of how polygamy is biblical, or that the OT was largely about Israel, etc., etc..

 

[Wesley]

Since I was directly addressed I will directly respond.

Nothing personal, Wesley. Just saying if polygamists dont want to face being shunned by family, Churches, and society then you going to have to explain or even fight for your lifestyle.

This is one of the few points that we agree on. I'm not going to shove the Bible in someone's face but I'm not going to hide who I am either. In other words I don't want to start the argument but I'm not going to back away if they start it.

I disagree. Christian polygamy has existed in the US since before the US did. It can be traced through the birth records. I discovered it when my mom and I were researching our family tree. It wasn't until the Mormons showed up and started knocking on people's doors with their proselytization that it became an issue.

I did not make any comments about when or how polygamy existed so I'm not sure what it is that youre disagreeing with me on.

My point is that the tactic of not denying Christ while also not getting in their faces has worked for almost 300 years in North America, longer than the US has been a nation. I like the Navy's saying on such things, "If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Think about this, do you like the idea of having a Jehovah's Witness come knocking on your door? If the answer is 'no' then perhaps we should realize that the same rule applies to us.

Well there are many ways to reach people other than showing up on their doorstep. Gay supporters have been having success by doing things other than knocking on people's doors. The author of this thread/topic simply showed up to a Church with her polygamous family and now she has been given a chance to justify polygamy using the Bible.

Agreed, but we need to choose our methods carefully rather than encouraging in-your-face thinking.

Matthew 7:6 also gives us guidance on how to deal with people who either don't care about the teachings of Christ ("pigs") or choose to use them for their own selfish purposes. ("dogs")

Not everyone who disagree with polygamy do so out of not caring for Jesus' teachings. Convincing people is not always going to be as easy as swooping in, trying to teach or lecture them and expecting them to gobble up your every word. Sometimes it takes time, like if you have to answer all their questions/objections, then they have to meditate or think more about it, etc.

This is an issue that I have yet to figure out how to overcome. I say that something exists, and in this case is common, and someone goes from "it exists" to "everyone."

Can we live in the real world please? I'm tired of the extremes. Why do we have to assume "everyone" every time I say something?

We definitely disagree on this point. Human understanding will always fail in the long run. It may appear successful in the short term but offers no long term solutions. Only the guidance of the Holy Spirit gives us hope of actually accomplishing anything positive.

Did you need the Holy Spirit to convince you that the Earth has water? For the same reason, i dont need the Holy Spirit to see the simple logic and facts of how polygamy is biblical, or that the OT was largely about Israel, etc., etc..

Speaking of extremes...

This is so extremist that I'm not even going to bother addressing it.

Have a nice day.

 

[PolyPride]

My point is that the tactic of not denying Christ while also not getting in their faces has worked for almost 300 years in North America, longer than the US has been a nation. I like the Navy's saying on such things, "If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Something is broken when you have people shunning and/or discriminating against a lifestyle that can be practiced with little to no harm. If you're unable to live as happily and freely as a monogamous couple, then yep, something is definitely broken.

 

[Wesley]

My point is that the tactic of not denying Christ while also not getting in their faces has worked for almost 300 years in North America, longer than the US has been a nation. I like the Navy's saying on such things, "If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Something is broken when you have people shunning and/or discriminating against a lifestyle that can be practiced with little to no harm. If you're unable to live as happily and freely as a monogamous couple, then yep, something is definitely broken.

Really?

John 15:19 NIV
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Are we trying to negate the prophecies of Christ? Good luck with that. I'll sit back and watch. This could be entertaining in a slapstick sort of way.

 

[PolyPride]

John 15:19 NIV
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Are we trying to negate the prophecies of Christ? Good luck with that. I'll sit back and watch. This could be entertaining in a slapstick sort of way.

Listening to you makes it sound like it's impossible to convince anyone from the anti-polygamy side that polygamy is okay. If it is impossible, why am I convinced as a non-believer? How did I manage to convince some believers and non-believers that polygamy is not inherently harmful and that it's biblically justified?

You bring up some prophecy but you fail to realize that polygamy is NOT exclusively a Christian practice since ANYONE, including non-believers, can practice it and like me are fighting for it.

Also, the world does not hate everything about Christianity. Some of the principles they actually agree with, like monogamous marriage. Many, including Christians, certainly don't hate polygamy because of Christ. Progress can be made, just like when slavery ended, interracial marriage bans ended; all of these things were ended, in part by people fighting for their right, rather than just "sit back and watch" (as you said you'd do).

 

[Wesley]

John 15:19 NIV
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Are we trying to negate the prophecies of Christ? Good luck with that. I'll sit back and watch. This could be entertaining in a slapstick sort of way.

Listening to you makes it sound like it's impossible to convince anyone from the anti-polygamy side that polygamy is okay.

And once again we go to extremes. I say that it's dangerous to try to convince SOME people and it gets taken to "it's impossible to convince anyone."

I'm going to step away from this discussion since it is doing nothing but hijacking the thread for no apparent reason.

 

[PolyPride]

Are we trying to negate the prophecies of Christ? Good luck with that. I'll sit back and watch. This could be entertaining in a slapstick sort of way.

Listening to you makes it sound like it's impossible to convince anyone from the anti-polygamy side that polygamy is okay.

And once again we go to extremes. I say that it's dangerous to try to convince SOME people and it gets taken to "it's impossible to convince anyone."

I'm going to step away from this discussion since it is doing nothing but hijacking the thread for no apparent reason.

You did not specify that you were referring to 'some' until AFTER i pointed out the error of over-generalizing..

The woman who started this thread can communicate with her Church elders about polygamy and may very well be succesful at convincing them.

Either way, just as long as you agree that some on the anti-polygamy side can be convinced to accept polygamy then we can both be happy : )

 

[Wesley]

We agree that some people are undecided on the issue, simply parroting what they've heard rather than having formed their own opinion, and that those who are undecided can be swayed to either side depending on the situation and presentation.

We appear to disagree on the best method for such persuasion and on the issue of whether or not those who are dead set against polygamy can be converted by anyone other than the Holy Spirit.

 

[PolyPride]

We appear to disagree on the best method for such persuasion and on the issue of whether or not those who are dead set against polygamy can be converted by anyone other than the Holy Spirit.

Based on evidence from my experience, I can say that it's possible to convince both non-believers and believers who are against polygamy - not just the undecideds. I can at least say it took more than just waiting around for the Holy Spirit to do all the work since I had to actually engage the person by answering their objections, questions, etc. Most times it took days/weeks of discussion back-and-forth, and some were convinced and some were not.

If the Holy Spirit is willing to use an unbeliever like me and He is willing to convince other unbelievers on NON-salvation and relatively simple-to-understand issues, then I'm all for it.