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Meat Determining Sound Doctrine

Joleneakamama

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Female
Because I like this kind of stuff....and because I wanted to try out the new label :) here is a subject that might be fun.

What kind of factors do you consider in determining what is sound doctrine?

KJV 2nd Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

NIV For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

We all have seen people reject polygyny, while those of us here can readily see it is a Biblically sound doctrine. The context of verses used to support the practice are solid, while the context of verses used to attempt to refute polygyny are weak.

There is obviously a myriad of varying doctrines out there, and people to like them all. There is a denomination it seems for every possible combination.

So, the questions I have for consideration are.

How do you evaluate doctrine?

How much weight do you give the traditional interpretation of verses?

How important is the context and usage of a word compared to say the definition of that word according to a concordance?

In the case of support for a doctrine or position coming from non-canonical books, do the verses carry as much weight as those in the regular biblical books?

All this is important because the answers to the questions here help in determining which of your fellow man are off their rockers, and have the delusion from God that is mentioned in 2nd Thes. 2:11
(This of course is jest, as I am sure we all want to be serious in seeking the truth and avoiding delusion)

Please feel free to share other questions. It is late at the end of the day here and I am sure this is not a comprehensive list.
 
Holy Spirit.

Oh, and studying the Word to make sure I understand what I am hearing.
Completely agree. You've got to be careful when using the Holy Spirit that you're absolutely sure that's what it is. I've heard people say the Holy Spirit told them to do all sorts of things. I've heard it used that an obvious false prophet was legit. And that polygyny is wrong. And certain things you can and can't do in the bedroom (just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a sin...).
The best way to make sure it's the Holy Spirit is to ask God to show you in His word. He'll show up, He'll do it, and then you won't have any doubt.
 
This does look fun!

How do you evaluate doctrine?
This first question is the hardest to answer for me because it's kind of general, but I suppose the best I can do is give an example with polygyny. When I had cause to re-evaluate monogamy what I had was one verse that seemed to teach it against the grain of the rest of scripture, but it was a NT verse and between Moses and Paul, Paul gives directions directly to me. (Non-messianic) But then I saw a couple words in that verse that made me think there was more to the story. So I looked up the definition of those words and then, with the aid of a close friend, tracked down every use of those two words in scripture and divided them up in to categories by usage and saw that it was exactly what it appeared to be. Once I saw that this verse didn't change or alter the direction of scripture on plural, I became comfortable with the doctrine of poly because as far as I can tell, it was consistent all the way through the bible (whether I understood it or not). So i suppose I evaluate doctrine by torturing it beyond all reason?

How much weight do you give the traditional interpretation of verses?

Some, I suppose. Unless something jumps out to me as an obvious misappropriation or something feels off about it I usually don't look too closely at it. It's just that so many traditional interpretations run clean contrary to a plain reading of the scripture that they are based on that a lot of them end up begging for scrutiny.

How important is the context and usage of a word compared to say the definition of that word according to a concordance?

Supreme in every way! For me the Strong's or Thayer's is good information about a word, but better than that, if possible, is tracking down what each word is relied on in scripture to mean by it's usage. I believe that God uses words to indicate concepts that don't come across in the dictionary definition and that the culture of the day did not really use but are apparent from their usage. The only thing I trust more is a mystical experience in which God illuminates something for me by brute force, but that is not so easily replicate-able...

In the case of support for a doctrine or position coming from non-canonical books, do the verses carry as much weight as those in the regular biblical books?

Not for me. There is at least one non-canon book that I think really should be canon, but even so I believe a good doctrine will be mentioned more or less obviously in multiple books and shadowed or typed in many other places. For me the word doctrine runs parallel to the word precept. I also feel that if a given non-canon book contains all the information about a given doctrine that can be found... it will not come up enough to really matter that much. For me 1 Enoch is where it's at, but understanding that blessing comes from winds originating from windows at cardinal points on the compass is just a mystery that can remain a mystery for me, and as it's not mentioned anywhere else that I am aware of it likely isn't something I need to be concerned about. And obviously I have less assurance about many other books so I may stew on them from time to time... but if a doctrine suggests something that canon books refute, I won't find the time to torture it.
 
I've heard people say the Holy Spirit told them to do all sorts of things.

I've seen that too. All sorts of unbilblical or sinful things. It seems most can't tell the difference between the HS and their own feelings. I wouldn't say that I can either.

I once talked with a prophet and asked when God talks to him, is it in his own internal head voice or in an altogether different voice. He said it sounded like himself talking.
 
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I've seen that too. All sorts of unbilblical or sinful things. It seems most can't tell the difference between the HS and their own feelings. I wouldn't say that I can either.

I once talked with a prophet and asked when God talks to him, is it in his own internal head voice or in an altogether different voice. He said it sounded like himself talking.
The prophets in Scripture never seemed to have any problem AT ALL hearing exactly what God was saying to them.

I’m curious does anybody here know of any cases in Scripture where it specifically says that God spoke to a prophet in his internal head voice rather than audibly?
 
There is a big difference between being a prophet and hearing from Yah.

Just saying
 
The prophets in Scripture never seemed to have any problem AT ALL hearing exactly what God was saying to them.

I’m curious does anybody here know of any cases in Scripture where it specifically says that God spoke to a prophet in his internal head voice rather than audibly?

Does it ever say that God spoke either audibly or in ones head? Doesn't it just say, He spoke? Or it sounded like thunder to others, which I assume implies someone heard Him speak in their head.
 
Does it ever say that God spoke either audibly or in ones head? Doesn't it just say, He spoke? Or it sounded like thunder to others, which I assume implies someone heard Him speak in their head.

The case where it sounded like thunder to others would suggest that it was audible and the others weren’t permitted to hear it. There are a number of times in Scripture were God’s voice was audible, but i have not found anywhere where Scripture says that God spoke to someone with their own inside there head voice (or however you want to phrase it).
 
The case where it sounded like thunder to others would suggest that it was audible and the others weren’t permitted to hear it. There are a number of times in Scripture were God’s voice was audible, but i have not found anywhere where Scripture says that God spoke to someone with their own inside there head voice (or however you want to phrase it).

I know that phrases in the bible say that God spoke from 'heaven' in many places, but does that mean there was really an actual sound wave producing sound that came from the sky, or was it more of a sensation manifested in your mind, like when you hear someone speak in a dream.
 
Does it ever say that God spoke either audibly or in ones head? Doesn't it just say, He spoke? Or it sounded like thunder to others, which I assume implies someone heard Him speak in their head.

I don't know. Those I've talked to who claim to be prophets or who say the HS gives them messages all relate it being internal. But I would not at all say that is definitive of the current experience of prophets much less scripture.

The only thing I trust more is a mystical experience in which God illuminates something for me by brute force, but that is not so easily replicate-able...

My relentlessly logical brain struggles to understand what you speak of.
 
I mean from Scripture, where is this taught in scripture?
Scripture never taught me how to breath,
suckle,
walk,
smell,
see,
swim,
smile,
make love,
or hear from my Creator, and a million other things. But I do. Not continually, He doesn’t perform on demand like a trained puppy.
But He gives me the guidance that I need when I need it if I am willing to listen.
Most people will never hear Him because they have been taught that He doesn’t speak to them.

True story:
Last night Ali got back from a visit to Seattle. One of the blessings of the visit was to find out that the private school that she was instrumental in rescuing twenty some years ago is still thriving under one of the teachers that she hired back then.
You see, the school was closing down back then and she had specific plans to rescue a small number of the children and homeschool them. I felt impressed of the Lord that she was to take the entire school on. She had never done anything similar and didn’t want to do it, but she acquiesced.
She couldn’t be happier about having done it and seeing her obedience bear fruit to this day.

Sometimes He does it with a thought, sometimes an impression, sometimes with words. Sometimes just seeing a word or two in your mind that you don’t understand the significance of at the time, but you mull it over and bathe it in prayer until He brings clarity.

Ali , for the past five years has written and published a small commercial paper that has a ministry to thousands in our local area. Hardly a week goes by but that multiple people tell her how blessed they are by it, read it cover to cover. And it pays for itself.
Something that she never desired to do, but I listened to that small voice and now, as part of writing a column about the city for each edition, she meets personally with the mayor and prays with him each time. Something that the local pastors would give their eye teeth to be able to do.

I am blessed to be married to Karin because of the words that Yah spoke to her. She had no intention of ever marrying again.
 
All this is important because the answers to the questions here help in determining which of your fellow man are off their rockers, and have the delusion from God that is mentioned in 2nd Thes. 2:11

So it's a test? We're poly believers, I thought we had to be off our rockers to gain admittance to this place?!?

But in all seriousness...

How do you evaluate doctrine?

So if I want to understand a topic, or evaluate a teaching someone gives me, I'll go to the scriptures. That can be anything from looking at the verse in question in context, evaluating a handful of verses, or doing an exhaustive study of scripture on the topic and where are the words are used. How detailed I go depends on the scope and difficulty of the question. It's become easier with time as I have grown the mental bank to pull up many applicable verses.

My practice is to take the scriptures, as they are, in their plain English literal meaning, and compose an understanding from what they tell me in a logically consistent manner. In other words, take them as they are with a child like faith. I'll only view things metaphorically when the passage demands it.

I really dislike the just so stories preachers tell to explain away the plain meaning verses; they seem to obfuscate more than illuminate and at times are contradictory with each other or scripture. Same for using one verse to dismiss another while ignoring the full context of everything else in scripture. I also dislike the tendency of some to explain away literal means using a metaphorical explanation (e.g. viewing Song of Solomon as only an allegory of Christ and not as the literal love poem it is [also?]; or explaining away the Mark of the Beast as merely symbolic). So too for the attempt to explain away clear commands using unclear examples in the history recorded in scripture.

I usually only go to commentaries if I'm struggling with understanding something and need more ideas or am doing a deep dive on a subject. But I don't view them authoritatively (i.e. "see, this idea is right, mr. so and so says so").

If faced with a difficult question I will also pray to God for wisdom and knowledge. And if this revolves around a matter of difficult application in my life I may fast and dedicate large blocks of time to prayer on the matter. And I trust from principle that the Spirit is trying to lead me in my walk in Christ (imperfect though I may be in following).

How important is the context and usage of a word compared to say the definition of that word according to a concordance?

I'm not sure what to say here. My sense is they need to be consistent with each other. The definition should fit the grammar and the logic of the prose. But usage elsewhere can help one better understand the meaning of the word (translation isn't a 1 to 1 thing). Sometimes I'll see someone argue for an interpretation based on an alternative concordance definition not in accord with usual translation, but which if accepted would make logic of the prose to become contradictory. I don't care for that.

But neither am I shy to argue for alternative renderings of words, especially when one can see the known bias of translators come through in the way different translations render words. And I tend to hold concordance meaning above any individual translation choice when various Bible translations disagree; esp. when the odd man out is one known for occasional idiotic renderings.

But I don't really have the knowledge yet to get into making interpretation of individual verse translations based on textual differences between original manuscripts/families.

Most of my foundational understandings of doctrine came without diving into concordances and dictionaries; just systematic study of all scripture. But as I've dived deeper into specific topics I've gone to them more and more for fuller understandings. But I'm very suspicious of arguments that are based entirely on a single alternate rendering of the word while disagreeing with tradition. Especially if there are extant early commentaries to the contrary from native Greek speakers.

Looking up meanings in a dictionary is pretty straightforward though. But if a concept of mine relies on an interpretation of the grammar of the original language I hold it as highly speculative as I'm way way out of my depth there and will say so.

How much weight do you give the traditional interpretation of verses?

It's a gut check. My initial conclusion is draw just from the plain understanding of the scriptures. But if the conclusion I draw differs from tradition then I need to study deeper to ensure I interpreted it right. On the one hand, tradition is often wrong, so I don't start with tradition but scripture. But if my idea has never been held before by anyone, there is a good chance it's wrong. This isn't a strategy particular to scriptural interpretation for me, I do a similar same thing in other fields of endeavor.

But it is tricky, tradition can be a mixed bag. Different streams of Christianity conflict. Tradition changes. For example, Christianity universally condemns polygamy; that's the tradition. Yet if you look in history they didn't at the first, and didn't for as much as 1600 years after. We can see why it changed, and it wasn't because of scripture but pagan tradition while polygamy being ok is consistent with the OT and the early practice; which argues very strongly for it being ok. Especially since most of the condemnations rely on questionable interpretations of NT verses that don't directly address it and which the early church fathers didn't feel were condemning of it.

Another example is the headcovering. There are many just so stories and theological explanations for why it doesn't apply today. Modern tradition says no. Yet the plain English reading says yes. And the balance of tradition (the first 1900 years) say yes. The illuminating thing is the tradition only changed at the beginning of the coming of feminism (new, unscriptural, anti-God motives) and that is when the explain-away ideas arrived too. That's not to say tradition can't be wrong or late changes to it are necessarily wrong (e.g. the corrections of Reformation being 1400 years late doesn't mean they're wrong), but 1st wave feminists are hardly Martin Luther figures arguing against church traditions that are clearly contrary to scripture.

Take poly again, that we are coming to this idea during a time of sexual liberation might suggest this isn't coming from a Bible ideal, but us trying to join the party while feeling good about our faith too. But the pro-poly message of the OT, the consistency of the scriptures on the matter and the history of the change in theological understanding of the idea in the early church (the earliest pro-monogamy treatiste admits it's not from the NT but a 'new revelation') tell me that this isn't simply us trying to bolt cultural changes onto the scripture (even if maybe that's how some got here). I have argued polygamy as a good if you can't beat em join em strategic rejoiner to the culture war, but that's not the source from which my pro-poly ideas flow.

No I don't want to debate those here, I'm just giving examples on how I've handled the complexity of tradition in a logical way.

So tradition informs, but it doesn't dictate. If I lived in 105 a.d. I'd have a different answer; but over 2000 years tradition has shifted so much and in so many contradictory ways its impossible for any one tradition to be definitive in an of itself. People within a single stream of tradition will from bias argue for theirs. But from an unbiased outside perspective, choosing one or another tradition requires some form of judgement external to any one tradition.

I more look at the broad scope history of tradition than any one tradition. I usually only look at individual creeds or Synod statements if I'm wanting to understand the history of a particular stream of thought. The Apostles and Nicene Creeds being exceptions which carry a lot more weight than other creeds.

In the case of support for a doctrine or position coming from non-canonical books, do the verses carry as much weight as those in the regular biblical books?

Really haven't done much of this. But mostly because I'm not well versed in them and my bible study tools don't draw them in.

I'm not one to dismiss non-canonical books out of hand; especially those accepted by some churches as canonical; I'm pretty much open to any text that a part of Christianity accepted as from God. In theory, they get more weight than commentaries but maybe less than canonical; with those books no churches accept as canonical being towards the low end. But if I have to go to the non-canonical books I'm probably dealing with something where there is a lack of information in the canonical ones or I'm trying to fill in a hole of understanding or logic or trying to show what the common first century understanding was on something (a popular though fake scripture can't tell us the Truth, but it can tell us what people then commonly believed).

Yes I know all the above is a very logic heavy approach; more on the limitations of that another time.
 
Scripture never taught me how to breath,
suckle,
walk,
smell,
see,
swim,
smile,
make love,
or hear from my Creator, and a million other things. But I do.

I have not heard anyone ever teach a doctrine, that they claim is biblical, on how to suckle, but I assure you, if they do, i will ask them to give me the scriptural references. I do, however, agree with you. One does not need to learn or be taught how to hear God. If He wishes to speak to someone, they will hear Him loud and clear.

Not continually, He doesn’t perform on demand like a trained puppy.
But He gives me the guidance that I need when I need it if I am willing to listen.
Most people will never hear Him because they have been taught that He doesn’t speak to them.
Isn’t this contradictory to your first point? I agree that people don’t have to learn to hear God, he is powerful enough to be heard whenever He chooses to communicate with a human being. However, it seems somewhat illogical to say that a person doesn’t need to be taught to hear God and at the same time say that God isn’t capable of speaking to someone who has been told that God won’t speak to them.

Take Saul as an example. God knocked him off his horse, spoke to him in what seems to have been an audible voice, and then blinded him and didn’t seem to struggle at all with the fact that Saul was not expecting to hear His voice that day.

True story:
Last night Ali got back from a visit to Seattle. One of the blessings of the visit was to find out that the private school that she was instrumental in rescuing twenty some years ago is still thriving under one of the teachers that she hired back then.
You see, the school was closing down back then and she had specific plans to rescue a small number of the children and homeschool them. I felt impressed of the Lord that she was to take the entire school on. She had never done anything similar and didn’t want to do it, but she acquiesced.
She couldn’t be happier about having done it and seeing her obedience bear fruit to this day.

Sometimes He does it with a thought, sometimes an impression, sometimes with words. Sometimes just seeing a word or two in your mind that you don’t understand the significance of at the time, but you mull it over and bathe it in prayer until He brings clarity.

Ali , for the past five years has written and published a small commercial paper that has a ministry to thousands in our local area. Hardly a week goes by but that multiple people tell her how blessed they are by it, read it cover to cover. And it pays for itself.
Something that she never desired to do, but I listened to that small voice and now, as part of writing a column about the city for each edition, she meets personally with the mayor and prays with him each time. Something that the local pastors would give their eye teeth to be able to do.

I am blessed to be married to Karin because of the words that Yah spoke to her. She had no intention of ever marrying again.

I don’t mean to be in any way disrespectful toward you and your wife’s accomplishments and
I’m not saying that God doesn’t direct our paths in various ways. It would seem, however, that the vast majority of the time it’s completely without us noticing. “The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord : and he delighteth in his way.”

We are not instructed anywhere in scripture to listen to the voices in our heads, at least not that i have found. If I’m wrong please show me from scripture. I know of people, who are successful and have accomplished some great things for humanitarian efforts. Some of those same people have had the experience of a burning in their bosom, that proved to them that the book of mormon is true. What sets your experience apart from or makes it superior to theirs?

What are the biblical ways that God communicates with us and what things are simply traditions of men?
 
I found this online "According to one definition, doctrine is teaching from God about God that directs us to the glory of God."

Using this as a general definition and starting point to evaluate scripture, I would give the words of Yeshua the upmost weight because he told us that he only spoke his father's words. (Ezekiel too, after he was called, could only speak when YHWH spoke through him) When a prophet said "Thus sayeth The Lord" that would also be on the same level of instruction. The challenge with some of the prophets is understanding the context and application as sometimes it was spoken as a parable and not as clear as the commandments and clear regulations found in Leviticus.
This is why the clear teaching of Yeshua is such a treasure. We can see YHWH's heart toward His children, and see interactions and even questions clarifying points asked by the disciples.

The lying pen of the scribes is something to be aware of. There is often a bias present, and when one word is translated into more than one word sometimes the meaning gets hidden in some passages.
Sheol being rendered grave when a righteous man like Jacob makes a reference to going there, but rendered hell everywhere possible, let people associate a burning place of fiery torment to hell (sheol) that they might not have, had all the places it was used been uniformly translated grave.
Gentile is another word where the modern connotation is almost oposite what the word actually denotes.
Goy or ethnos could have been uniformly translated nations, but those who put gentiles intended to convey the familial link between the Jews and Gentiles, one ironically completely absent from the modern understanding.

One thing I have always loved about word studies and people who research and present their findings is that a better understanding has always increased my desire for more and my sense of awe for our Father in Heaven.
I'm gonna stop here for now as my lap is being claimed by a little.
Thank you all for the thought provoking contributions.
 
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