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Discussion: Submission is a condition of the heart

sweetlissa

sweetlissa

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I want to start a discussion about submission. I thought I knew about submission, but apparently my knowledge is going to continue growing. I like that. Up till a few days ago, I thought I understood submission. But I was so wrong. God has been talking directly to my heart recently about taking the concept of submission to an even deeper level than ever before.

So, since I share what God tells me with my sisters, I thought I would see where this discussion might take us.

SweetLissa
 
Sweet Lissa,

I really enjoy reading your posts. God does have an interesting way of revealing to us how much more there is to learn about His Word. The Pastor said last Sunday, "People ask me 'what will you preach after you've preached every chapter in the Bible to us'?" He replied, "I'll preach those chapters all over again."

I'd like to hear more about the new aspects of submission that you've learned on your journey. It is helpful to learn and grow from one another.

I've learned like anything thing else in life, there will always be some people who will do better at certain things than me. That doesn't mean I beat myself up, because I'm not doing it as good as sister so and so. As long as my heart is right with God and am making every effort to be who He wants me to be; I'm me.

Peace to you, sister in Christ
Michelle
 
I have always felt for me that submission was to listen to my G-d and my husband. To respect his wishes when it comes to our family, finances, home and children. Since the bible tells us as wives to submit to our husband as to the Lord. To me that means listening and being in sense obedient.

I know that sounds a little odd coming from a 30 something wife of only 12 years. But I try to honor my husbands wishes especially when it comes to finances and our children. We plan together but he has the final say. If he feels strongly about not doing something or spending a certain amount then we don't.

I do struggle with this a times and I have to pray that the Lord will show me how to HE wants me to be properly submissive to my husband. I pray each day that I am able to live up to G-d's standards.
 
When we first began to know the Lord, we started by reading the Bible, going to studies, reading books and commentaries and asking for advice. One of the first things I remember learning is that if we asked him God would give us the desires of our hearts. To a beginning Christian, this probably sounded like a free pass to all the stuff we wanted. We tried and usually we didn’t get that new car or the boyfriend we wanted, even though we asked. Then someone told me that the statement was really more along the lines of if we loved God and followed his word he would give us the desires of our heart. Not in the way of asking and receiving but in that God would give us the desires that he wanted us to have. So instead of wanting the football star to be our boyfriend, we would decide that we wanted a Godly husband that God prepared for us. Or instead of wanting that flashy new car, we would want a reliable car with a reasonable payment that we could afford and wouldn’t tempt our flesh. So reality is that as we grow in our love for and knowledge of God, he teaches our hearts to want what he wants us to have. This is one aspect of submission to God.

Now when we get married, we begin our path of submission by simply promising to obey our husband. That is pretty scary stuff. Here we are, we have just committed our lives to this man and now we have to obey him too! But a few years down the road, I have found that this is more than just simple obedience. In the same manner that I have learned about God, I have learned my husband. My love for him has grown and my knowledge of him has grown. So now, if I truly listen to my heart, I find that the desires that hubby has are the same ones that are growing in me. We have talked enough to understand the overall plan for our lives. We know each other’s values and hopefully by this time they are very similar. As time goes on, it is very difficult for a woman to not submit to her husband, because she has grown to believe as he believes and to desire what he desires. This, to me, is a condition of the heart. When our hearts are truly joined, it is very difficult to be out of submission. Imagine two halves of the same heart not working together.
 
I really like what you ladies posted--great insight from you both. Do you ladies find it difficult to submit when your husband has broken your heart? I mean God never breaks my heart, yet I find I still can't surrender to some of His wishes for my life.
 
This is definitely a growth process. I think that there will always be times where submission is more difficult than others. Especially when dealing with a broken heart. I would think that after a heart break, most women probably revert back to the "simple obedience" form because usually after a heartbreak trust has been broken. At that point it is more the wife's trust in God than her trust in her husband. It is difficult, but it is necessary when you heal from a rough patch. (At least that would be my best guess, since this is relatively new stuff for me to be thinking about.)

SweetLissa
 
This is a very insightful subject, so I'm throwing things out there that are coming to mind. So when you know a woman that thinks they are totally submissive to their husband--home schools, cleans, cooks, etc.--yet, complains that their husband isn't following God the way he should or raising the kids in the manner he should, is this submission but not of the heart?
 
BTW, this is just a hypothetical woman not anyone I know. :D
 
There are a couple of things that could be going on there:

First off that woman might be naturally negative and not know that she is even doing it. I remember one time, with a relative of mine, where I discovered that she didn't even realize what she was doing. We had taken them to Disneyland for the weekend and she did nothing but complain the entire time. At breakfast on the final day, I mentioned to her that it hurt a great deal that I had so carefully planned this outing for everyone involved and it seemed that she had not enjoyed herself at all. She was horrified that I thought that.

Another possibility is that this woman has not come to an understanding of the power of her tongue. We all know that as small as the tongue is it is a very dangerous instrument. With one slash of that little tiny muscle, she can negate all of the good she is doing every day. All it takes is a little negativity to sour a whole lot of positives.

One other possibility is that she doesn't realize that her words are showing what her heart truly feels. She may "obey" but her heart is not submissive. She opens her mouth and her true feelings come out.

The sad thing is that these women do exist. And usually they have been told or shown that they could do things differently. But they either don't believe the person who tells them or they don't care.

If these things are happening, I believe that a husband could/should gently explain to his wife what she is doing and how it affects their family or their relationship. He should be prepared to show her scriptures that outline how unpleasing this is to God and then show her the way he wants her to be. It doesn't do much good to just say "Don't do that!" He must be willing to be her example and show her what he wants to replace the ugly behavior.
 
This is all so true! One thing about "Those women who don't even realize what their tongue can do" is that I think that those women are us and live in us and come out every once in a while-what woman hasn't used her words at soem point as weapons. Women are very verbal by nature and it is a very powerful tool for them. I have found that i am one of those girls who sometimes talks out of turn and says a mean thing to just "say how I feel" and "let it out" whithout thinking what it's gonna do to the person next to me wether husband, child or other wife. Thank you Sweetlissa
 
Just recently I got a pm from a friend on Facebook. It was someone that I knew when she was in her teens. She was the girlfriend of my stepson. For a brief period of time, right after her mother passed away, I was her guardian. I took this job very seriously and wanted to protect her from everything, my stepson's intentions included.

Ultimately, her natural father stepped in and she and the stepson broke up. Over a decade later she pm'd me to tell me that she felt that I had been at least partially the cause of ruining the best thing that ever happened to her. She did this in the name of healing. Well, it did nothing to heal me. I quietly apologized and de-friended her. She wrote me back and said "No you didn't have to go away, I just had to say it." Well, she will never know just how much those words damaged me and my heart.

Oh well.
 
This is a learning journey indeed. So far with I'm hearing all the ladies saying is we all have to work on it. We could easily add to the OP: 'Submission is a condition of the heart,' and let's add & tongue.
 
It is also a journey that will never end.

SweetLissa
 
i find actual outward submission so hard, it's scary to think about also having to takle internal submission too!!! :D
 
Greetings Ladies!

I haven't been here in quite a while, as my dh has concluded that pm is not for our family at this season of our lives, if ever. Which is fine with me, as we're both on this learning journey together, and are both not ready for pm ~ as we are working things out in our marriage and family in other areas. I have allot of learning & growing in Christ in general, and don't feel quite balanced in life as of yet.

I am however enjoying the process of learning who I am in Christ Jesus, with a Holy Spirit confidnce of who He (God) has created me to be. Not with a worldly~prideful arrogance mind you, but trying to realize and live out God's will for my life in humble confidence. Yet more often than not, I fail in the area of being the wife, mother, friend and Sister, being Humble in Christ as God calls me to be. Ugh ~ what a journey, filled with both joyful and sad/hard at times, but so worth the work it takes to learn to die to self and become more "Christ~like," with each year we're blessed with. Thus striving and seeking thru God's will and word/His Scriptures alone~what true Biblical Submission is and applying it in my marriage. Again more often than not, I fail my dh and God in this area. As the Apostle Paul shared: The very things that I know I should do, I don't, and yet the very things I don't want to do, I do ~ Ugh~ as I can so relate, lol! But none the less, not to use this as "a scape goat or excuse for where we may fail at times." But just as Paul and the rest of us will continue to fall short of the glory of God ~ until Jesus returns and thus fail at times, failing our dh's, kiddos or friends, doesn't mean that God can't use us, or that we can't help to encourage one another, "Speaking God's Truths in His version of Love, as iron sharpens iron." Sometimes we wives can truly become "emotionally stressed out, depressed, lost or confused" on the journey of marriage and truly just need to vent, pray about it, maybe repent of things, and then pick the pieces back up with God and move on. Sometimes there are real vaild issues of concern, hurt or verbal or emotional neglect or abuse on the part of our husbands or us as wives too! Things happen in life where we all fail one another. But that doesn't always mean that the wife is out of line or just being lazy/selfish or husband bashing, thus being in sin nor not truly being "Biblically Submissive either." There are seasons of hurts, abuses at times, and areas of neglect that need to be dealt with on either side. Sometimes I fail my dh and fall into sin and hurt him, just as he has with me over the years. But that doesn't mean it's sin to vent once in a while, seeking God's will thru prayer 1st & foremost, as long as it's in respect and from a real loving heart of concern for our marriages. I try with God's help not to fall into these "venting seasons too much and watch my mouth and the true issues of my heart." But when the need to vent in a proper & respectful way arises at different seasons, does not mean that my heart is not in the right place. And more often than not, I'm able to follow God's will in the outward act of obedience to Him(God) and to my dh, and the inside emotions & true heart feelings do come along and line up with my actions! But I do understand that we shouldn't lazily allow ourselves to continue on in never ending~disrespectful venting seasons either. But some hard seasons do last longer than others, as our life here is such a learning journey! I am a work in progress, as we all are ~ and as we all fail our dh's, family and friends at times. All we can do is humble ourselves, confess & repent to God and whoever we hurt, pick the pieces back up and turn back to God and the call He places on our lives as Sisters of the faith. Praise be to God! :eek:)
 
sweetlissa said:
If these things are happening, I believe that a husband could/should gently explain to his wife what she is doing and how it affects their family or their relationship. He should be prepared to show her scriptures that outline how unpleasing this is to God and then show her the way he wants her to be. It doesn't do much good to just say "Don't do that!" He must be willing to be her example and show her what he wants to replace the ugly behavior.
Click to expand...

This brings up another point. What if the husband doesn't really understand submission and doesn't spend time in the Word with his wife? He can't help the woman grow in it. However, she knows that she should submit according to God's wishes, so in this case will "condition of the heart" every truly flourish unless the husband gets on board with his role?
 
That is an excellent question. My gut level response is to say that if the husband isn't doing his part the submission will not grow the way it is supposed to. But that would be blaming the husband for something that is in the wife.

I believe the more scriptural way of looking at it is this:

Submission is ultimately about your relationship with God. In the end, we each are responsible for the relationship that we have had with the Father. Hubby is responsible for his relationship with God. So our relationships with God will help us to be submissive in our hearts. And if we are praying about our husband's relationship with God, we have to trust God to fix that relationship.

So in essence, while the husband not doing his part may effect the depth of relationship with his wife, it should not affect the relationship between wife and God. So the submission would be there, but the husband may not be part of it as much as he would be if he were following God.

I think. This is off the top of my head. Any other ideas, ladies?
 
As the out-of-the-closet-been-in-recovery-from-feminism-for-40-years-"older-woman" (Oy!!) in our Bib fam crew ;), there is no topic that has served to drive me more quickly and firmly to the horns of the altar and the throne of Grace than submission. I have been in every ditch possible, ranging from a sort of charismatic Stepford Wife approach, to Dirty Harry's "Go ahead, make my day," especially when I was a single Jewish mother bear. :!: I would not be at all surprised if my guardian angels have PTSD and are needing counseling from wrestling with me as I have wrestled with this topic, which I have made one of my "babies," if you will, in the Word of God.

I am also very aware that some of the purpose of God's Word is to get us to grapple with, and then cave into, the Author, and "walking with a halt" after having been "smitten in the thigh" indeed gives us wings to soar and see the view from 30,000 feet. In other words, much of submission has comparatively little to do with our hubs and waaaaay more to do with our Father and our Beloved.

So, for the sake of this post, there are three things that I have found to be helpful that I want to briefly toss into the ring. First, re: whether or not a woman can really grow into submission if her husband doesn't "get it," may I commend to you the example of Abigail. Not exactly a situation where she and not-so-dear-hubby Nabal were working through Beth Moore's "To Live Is Christ," and praying together. Yet, because of her submissive life before YHWH she not only saved several lives, but the whole discourse begins in I Sam 25 with her being described as not only being beautiful, but being of good understanding.

Point 2: Not-so-nice-Nabal put Abigail (whose name in Hebrew means ' father or source of joy' into a position where she was CONSTANTLY having to rely on YHWH for wisdom, which we know He loves to give, and please note that wisdom is sweetly personified in scripture by our perfect Master as a woman. So, Nabal really did her a favor, and so does anyone, husband or otherwise who is in authority in our lives, (or even presumptuous, out-of-line authority, for that matter,) when their Guiness Book of Records undisputed King or Queen of Aggravation status drives us to God.

Point 3: If you look at the II Pet 3 discourse on women and submission, you need to understand that contextually God is requiring the toughest thing possible of three groups of people: slaves, wives, and husbands. If you just start with the admonition to women, you won't get it.

Slaves are being required to follow Christ's example and find out how to walk that out with horrible masters. Wives are shown that trust and obedience are powerful weapons with powerful consequences, the least of which is becoming more beautiful (like Abigail!)
And husbands are being shown that while loving an impossible woman and finding out, (as Yeshua gives the strategy to do so) just what in the world it means to "dwell with her according to knowledge" is the most difficult, unfair thing imaginable, but the result is a fast track to answered prayer.

Bottom line, there ain't no free lunch for anyone, and as women, we have to "go there" even when it seems no one else does and worse, when it appears that they get away with it. :lol:
 
Ok, so we are discovering why we are to submit, who we are to submit to, and how we submit. Can modern day women submit the way ladies of the Biblical days did, and weren't there some ladies in Biblical days that did it better than others?
 
Michelle,

I would say that modern day women can indeed submit as did women of biblical times, from OT on to present day, for several reasons.
The first is that we submit ultimately to God, even when we are submitting to people as an act of love for Him, and when we do that, we are plugging into the timeless realm of the One who made and loves us. IOW, because He is the same, any act of surrender to Him impacts heaven, whether that act happened in the Iraqi desert thousands of years ago or on the sidewalks of NYC on 9/11.

The second comes in the form of what I would say is a hint. Even though we think of biblical times and NT times as somewhat synonymous, Peter 2,000 years ago refers to "holy women of old." The hint seems to be that Peter is saying, "Hey, now Noah's wife and Sarah REALLY had this submission thang down, and you can do it, too! They totally qualified for the Heb 11 Hall of Faith, and are your example in my (Peter's) opinion." So, if in Peter's mind there was a distinction between those "women of old," and female disciples of Yeshua who were actually allowed to learn and ask questions of Messiah, ( and thus be fantastically enlightened for their day,) the result may have been that they asked themselves the same question as you, ie "Can we ever really submit like they did?"

The third reason falls squarely in our times. The more opportunities exist for women due to enlightenment, education, technology and material blessing, the greater the surrender when our Beloved asks us to lay it all down.

As for some doing it better than others, that's a given. But, on the other hand, only God knows what kinds of prices people pay on the inside, and how different that may look on the outside. Missy Ima Milqtoast choosing to bite her tongue might not be as tough as it is for Lady Leona Lioness, and my experience is that most women have some of both qualities, and end up not speaking up when they should, as well as saying stuff they shouldn't.
 
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