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Ephesians 4:11

lutherangirl

lutherangirl

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"It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers." Is this verse referring to gifts that had already been given out, or are these gifts still "now-a-days"? I know that there are still evangelists, pastors and teachers, but what about apostles and prophets? Who are and what do these "now-a-days" apostles and prophets do? If we don't receive anymore prophecies in "now-a-days" time, what is a prophets job?

Michelle
 
Michelle, there are some gifts to churches and some gifts to people. Apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastor/teachers are gifts to churches. Other gifts such as those listed in Romans and I Corinthians are, IMHO still available as God chooses to give to His people for His purposes. Spiritual gifts are not of our choosing, but of God. Spiritual showmanship is not a part of God's program.

Apostles and prophets, as represented in the first century, that were used of God to establish churches in the truth of God's Word, before it was written down do not so function today. They were the mouth pieces of God's authority and Word to His people. With the writing down and preservation of God's Word, the Bible, the role of apostles and prophets have changed to that which we call missionaries or church planters and evangelists.
 
John,

Thank you for explanation. At our church we "call" a pastor to lead our congregation, since pastors we consider a "divine call from God." My question is there are many people in the church using their gifts: some are employed some are volunteers. Why does one have to go through Seminary training to be considered "called" by G*d? Aren't we all called by G*d to use our gifts to His glory?

Michelle
 
Hey sister,

I know you asked John this question but I'll add my thoughts as well as it might be of help.

Why does one have to go through Seminary training to be considered "called" by G*d? Aren't we all called by G*d to use our gifts to His glory?
Click to expand...

The short answer is that when God calls the call is to one of service and the best servants are those who are also willing to be trained. That does not mean it must come through seminary training though. That can be one way but it is not the only way. In some case it is not the best either, depending on the seminary and it's strength.

Take for example Silas and Timothy. They both received the call of God in their lives and then they were sitting at the feet of Paul to learn and to train.

Even Paul after he had been trained from one of the strongest teachers in Judaism he went out with Barnabas and for a period worked alongside of Barnabas on the mission field.

So YES we are all called of God to serve but in the body we have different roles. Some have serving gifts and some have speaking gifts. Those are the two broad categories of how people are called. This is how Peter divides the gifts into the two broadest categories (1 Peter 4:10-11). Some have more one side than the other and a few excel at both sides.

Yet at the same time when one receives a call it is important to train and do all one can to exercise their spiritual muscles so they can become the best they can in the service of their calling. I kind of look at it like a surgeon today. A person can sense the call to be a surgeon and he can go get a knife and read some books and begin to serve. But how many people will entrust themselves to a surgeon who has not been trained by another competent surgeon? Few and far would if any. Using the word of God is like that too. Hebrews 4:12 tells us that the word is sharp, it cuts. Thus when called to an office like a pastor or teacher or evangelist it is critical to know how to use the word properly.

Billy Graham was asked once, what do you think about being trained like in a seminary. He said that if he knew he had only a few years left to live to preach the gospel he would spend at least half of that time in study in seminary getting prepared to go. The reason he and others feel this way is because precision with the word is so critical to the souls and lives of those being ministered to. To go and make a disciple one first needs to be a disciple and a disciple of a stable and solid saint who is mature in the word. Again that does not mean seminary training but that can be one way it is done.

Hope this helps.
 
Hi Michelle,
Let me illustrate with something that might be familiar to both of us as Michiganders (think Paul Bunyan :) ). An axe head is forged to shape and may even be attached to a handle, it is a complete axe. But no one would cut much wood unless an edge was put on its blade. That is the benefit of training to the called, effectiveness, productivity and excellence. A sharp axe cuts more wood easier and quicker. A pastor that is called by God into the ministry and then called by a congregation to that specific church, has all the basic tools to do the job, in an unprepared fashion. I'm thinking of an aptness for teaching, a compassion for people, a tenderness toward God, but training puts an edge to his tools that makes him much more effective and beneficial to God's work.
 
Thanks guys. I love the way you both used allegories to answer my questions. I understand perfectly why a person would want to hone his craft. What if a person fills out a spiritual analysis questionnaire, and the results show he is a exhortor or servant. Does he have to go to college/seminary to use this gift within the body of Christ?
 
show he is a exhortor or servant. Does he have to go to college/seminary to use this gift within the body of Christ?
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John might have a better answer here than I do on this one. But this is my initial thoughts.....our seminaries and colleges have normally been set up for those with the speaking side of the gifts. Thus, they are often ill-equipped in a way to deal with those who have serving gifts. I say in one sense though as a qualification because growth in the knowledge of the word alone is always in a sense valuable to all and those with serving gifts can still greatly benefit from it.

Yet, on the other side, I think colleges and seminaries could do a better job of training in this area as Dr. Lawrence O' Richards has so well stated in his book on a "Theology of Christian Education." Part of that improvement could be if colleges and seminaries developed projects for each course that were aligned to a students giftings in either the speaking or serving aspects. If a student were gifted in speaking then he or she could write a 20 to 30 page paper on a particular topic from the course and teach on it. If the student was inclined more towards a serving role than the student could take something from the course and do a ministry hands on project somewhere with a goal to apply that knowledge of the course to the serving project.

So in short, no a person with serving gifts would not need to go to a seminary or college yet if one did it would not be a bad thing as all growth in the word is good. But a college or seminary, at least as is, is geared more towards those with the speaking/teaching gifts than for those with serving gifts, which is something the schools could work on to be better able to help in training all of of those who want deeper training for the call to ministry. And last of all, the college or seminary does not create the pearl, the minister, only God does that through the the Spirit. A servant or a teacher can be trained and developed under the guidance of someone older than them in the Lord. Apprenticeships are one of the greatest tools to growing in the work of the Lord.
 
OK, I thought that all members of the church have a spiritual gift. Then we take a spiritual analysis test to find out what we should be doing in the church to work in unity building up the body of Christ and not stepping on each others toes. Like I could never be a pastor, so why would I waste me time stepping on his toes. I thought we stick to our gift, and the church will grow. So, I get that we have trained men that our pastors (men), elders (men) that take care of the spiritual needs of the congregation (whom, for some, don't have much training), and the rest of us "office of the keys". So, if I'm in the Word and hold the status of "office of the keys" can I still hold one of the gifts that Romans and 1 Corinthians refers too? Or are you guys saying really only these gifts are given out to "higher ranks" within the church?
 
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 NIV 2011

I do not agree in full to what I am about to quote below (from the Roman Catholic Church) but I would like to point out that many people such as Derek Prince (who is not Roman Catholic and does not give the same details in his belief as I quote below in the same way at least) and others (who are not Roman Catholic and do not give the same details in his belief as I quote below in the same way at least)) believe that people still receive private revelation today but they do not add books of the Bible for everyone throughout the whole world to use as part of the public revelation I might not be explaining their stance fully correctly. Many people for instance have avoided death, bankruptcy, etc. in specific instances where they thought God warned them in a dream, or voice or thought/inner voice, where God directed them to do something and they obeyed, but this does not mean it should be added to the collection of public revelation for instance do not go down to such and such a place at such and such a location and time does no good after that time is elapsed. For instance one person told me they once withdrew money from a bank immediately before the bank failed saving them months of time in which they would not have had access to the money due to government take-overs, if I remember right they did this because they felt God might want them to do that but they did not go and put it in a book and say this is for the moral guidance of most of the public and should make up an additional book of the Bible.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM said:
There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfilment, as is the case in certain nonChristian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM

I believe Deuteronomy 18:21-22 is meant to be a test for those who claim to be prophets of public revelation. If someone does not go down a dark alley on a hunch and does not say, "God declared...." but keeps it to themselves in word but not in action they are not setting themselves up for death penalty on the Deuteronomy 18:21-22 basis.

Many Muslims have supposedly had dreams in which they think they saw Jesus, that might be an example of a private revelation, they are not adding a book to the public set of scripture but God might be communicating something important to them privately, I said the word "might" so I am not violating Deuteronomy 18 by mentioning this.

I am not sure that this definition of private revelation vs. public revelation can be directly found in scripture but it helps explain a lot and makes sense to me, using these terms is about like using the terms trinity (which is not in the Bible) to describe something that might be conceptually present within the Bible. That being said I am not sure this private and public revelation thing can be found conceptually in the Bible but neither can how to make a specific year and model of a car, but that does not mean the year and model of the car does not exist and it would be ridiculous for someone who has seen such cars to argue they do not exist because they are not in the Bible.

One of the dangers of these "private revelations" is that demons can give them.

If someone says a book is from God for public revelation I would think that they should be tested with the test of a prophet from Deuteronomy 18:21-22 and Deuteronomy 13 needless to say the Quran and the book of Mormon as I see it flunk that test. The book of Mormon because Joseph smith failed to predict what would really be found to be the meaning of the "book of Abraham" when it was correctly translated from the Egyptian and the Quran because it does not even get the past correct 100% of the time let alone the future.

If someone claimed a new book is part of public revelation I would see if I can test it with the test of the prophet in Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18:21-22 and if it fails the test I will consider it not public revelation and if it has no prophecies I would usually disregard it (although that is not the same as failing the test it is more like not applying for the test) and if it fails to be rejected (so far) then that just means I failed to show it was not public revelation but that does not mean it is public revelation however it means I would want to take it more into consideration. This is a brief oversimplification missing a few details.
 
I'm not sure I understand your question.

If by it you were asking can a woman be a pastor/teacher over men then the answer is simply no (see 1 Timothy 2:11-14 for one clear and plain text on that). Scripture does not endorse women being the authoritative doctrinal leaders over the men of the body of Christ because that is doctrinal warfare. When we look at 1st Timothy 3:-17 we find the male gender pronoun and noun used throughout that entire context and immediately preceding that text is the freedom clause given to women releasing them from that position of doctrinal warfare. I said the word release too because it is a blessing that a woman does not have to fight out the doctrinal battles against hell and evil forces that seek to distort the gospel of grace. It would be like placing a woman on the front lines of a battle field in a physical hand to hand battle on the war field. Some idiots and morons might think that it is ok to place a woman out in front like that to be shot at by the enemy :x but real men who love women don't think in those terms. More men, of course, need to step up to the plate and go to battle and protect women from that role, both physically and spiritually!Shame on those who are too sissyfied to do that or are to full of pride to be trained to do that either spiritually or physically! :evil:

ok ok ok ok ......I'll get off that horse......WHEW.....I could go on forever with that but I'll drop that for now.

But if you are asking can women be educated in the word and use that education to help shepherd younger women and children then the answer is yes absolutely. Older women should be training younger women and older men should be training younger men. Both parents ought to be training the children in the Lord.

The spiritual gifts do not per se fall along gender lines. In other words, the teaching gifts do not all fall to the men and the serving gifts all fall to the women.

But, a woman is called to be a help or complementarian mate to her man. She is to use her gifts to help him and he is to use his gifts to build up the body of Christ (including first and foremost his family) as he goes about working for the gospel (either with his serving gifts or speaking gifts or both). Likewise, the woman is to use her gifts (within biblical boundaries) to edify her family and the body of Christ as she works for the gospel.

I have hit on a lot here because I'm not sure I understood the precise point of the question so I have tried to cover several different angles.
 
I was thinking today and I find it interesting that Jesus never taught the diciples to preach but He did teach them to pray! I am trying to do a lot more listening and less talking in prayer.
 
Dr. Allen,

I understand totally that women aren't suppose to be pastors or elders. I was just wondering if the other spiritual gifts could be passed on to women. It seems like you are saying that the men deal with the direction and decisions of the church, and the ladies stick to the foo foo stuff like Sunday school and VBS, and of course dinners/potlucks. :D
 
DiscussingTheTopic said:
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 NIV 2011

I do not agree in full to what I am about to quote below (from the Roman Catholic Church) but I would like to point out that many people such as Derek Prince (who is not Roman Catholic and does not give the same details in his belief as I quote below in the same way at least) and others (who are not Roman Catholic and do not give the same details in his belief as I quote below in the same way at least)) believe that people still receive private revelation today but they do not add books of the Bible for everyone throughout the whole world to use as part of the public revelation I might not be explaining their stance fully correctly. Many people for instance have avoided death, bankruptcy, etc. in specific instances where they thought God warned them in a dream, or voice or thought/inner voice, where God directed them to do something and they obeyed, but this does not mean it should be added to the collection of public revelation for instance do not go down to such and such a place at such and such a location and time does no good after that time is elapsed. For instance one person told me they once withdrew money from a bank immediately before the bank failed saving them months of time in which they would not have had access to the money due to government take-overs, if I remember right they did this because they felt God might want them to do that but they did not go and put it in a book and say this is for the moral guidance of most of the public and should make up an additional book of the Bible.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM said:
There will be no further Revelation



Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfilment, as is the case in certain nonChristian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".
Click to expand...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PH.HTM

I believe Deuteronomy 18:21-22 is meant to be a test for those who claim to be prophets of public revelation. If someone does not go down a dark alley on a hunch and does not say, "God declared...." but keeps it to themselves in word but not in action they are not setting themselves up for death penalty on the Deuteronomy 18:21-22 basis.

Many Muslims have supposedly had dreams in which they think they saw Jesus, that might be an example of a private revelation, they are not adding a book to the public set of scripture but God might be communicating something important to them privately, I said the word "might" so I am not violating Deuteronomy 18 by mentioning this.
Click to expand...

Maybe this isn't private revelations, but that the Holy Spirit within us let's us know when things are right or wrong. The pastor this Sunday at the Baptist church we attended said, "The Holy Spirit is doing his job 100 percent, because even if you ask a non-believer if he is a sinner or is perfect that person will say Yes, I'm a sinner; and NO to being perfect. So, the Holy Spirit can convince and convict men without them even believing."
 
withfresheyes said:
I was thinking today and I find it interesting that Jesus never taught the diciples to preach but He did teach them to pray! I am trying to do a lot more listening and less talking in prayer.
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Good advice about listening more. I'm going to put that into practice.
 
I was just wondering if the other spiritual gifts could be passed on to women. It seems like you are saying that the men deal with the direction and decisions of the church, and the ladies stick to the foo foo stuff like Sunday school and VBS, and of course dinners/potlucks.
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Most certainly they are important! The role of elder pastor is not per se a gift as much as it is a role and office. I believe every one of the spiritual gifts can be imparted to a woman just as much as a man. The way in which it is used is defined further by other verses of Scripture. For example, suppose a woman were to have the gift of teaching. She should then use that gift to train and mentor women.

If we keep in mind that the 3rd member of the Triune Godhead is called the "paraclete," i.e. the Helper and then we also see that the woman is called the helper or help mate of the man does that not show us how valuable a woman is? God as the Holy Spirit is in the role of helper and in that role he works to make sure the plan of the Father, and the work of the Son come to pass.

If someone should say that being in the helper role is less valuable then the person would have to also reject the value and importance of the Holy Spirit. That is not and cannot be a position accepted by any true saint. The Holy Spirit is God and is equal in value to Christ and the Father.

However, about the dinners and potlucks, my my my I would think the preparation of food is one of the highest essentials.....I mean without that nobody would survive or have any energy to do anything :lol: :D

Well, ok seriously, what a woman does under the authority of her head and what her and her head does under the authority of the spiritual leaders cannot be seen as secondary or less valuable. That is so often one of the lies the devils promotes to instigate disorder into the body of Christ. Order is a form of power. Think of it like a river. If every 10 yards a river branches off into a separate stream shortly that river will lose its power and it will dwindle away. But if the water is governed by the banks and if it remains in order traveling together in the same direction that river will gain momentum and power as it goes. That is the order principle of which we draw power.

A woman serving as a helper to the mission is like the Holy Spirit serving as a helper to God's mission. It brings power to the plan and is ever so important.

I hope that helps to explain that a little better.
 
lutherangirl said:
Dr. Allen,

I understand totally that women aren't suppose to be pastors or elders. I was just wondering if the other spiritual gifts could be passed on to women. It seems like you are saying that the men deal with the direction and decisions of the church, and the ladies stick to the foo foo stuff like Sunday school and VBS, and of course dinners/potlucks. :D
Click to expand...

Teaching children can be more important than teaching adults in the long-run, don't you remember the basics of communism/socialism...

It does not matter if the parents disagree because when they are dead if the socialists brainwash the children.......

(By the way Germany during WWII had the national socialist party in charge)

But I am not sure if woman are permitted to teach boys.

If the women were in charge what would happen if they bossed around their husbands? Can they both obey their husband and order something irreconcilably contradictory to what their husbands order?

Bosses are in charge of employees but they sometimes hire employees to do important things that they do not know how to do. This means the company could not function without the employees in some circumstances, because if the boss were to try to do what the employees do on his own he could not.

Men for instance are not capable of giving birth to children, but if no children are born how can the Kingdom possibly advance?

Someone has to be physically born before they can be born again/from above. If there were no women to give birth to children how could anyone be spiritually reborn?

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’
John 3:6-7 NIV 2011

This is not the same as Mormonism. Mormons believe people are spiritually born then physically born, the Bible teaches people are physically born then spiritually born again/from above. (My use of the word "born" is based on English translations.)

If there is no childbearing no one will be born to have the opportunity to be saved.

15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Timothy 2:15 NIV 2011

15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring.[d] So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.
Malachi 2:15 NIV 2011

My point is that women doing their part making babies is indispensable to ministry, so one should not think the men have all the important jobs.
 
lutherangirl said:
Thanks guys. I love the way you both used allegories to answer my questions. I understand perfectly why a person would want to hone his craft. What if a person fills out a spiritual analysis questionnaire, and the results show he is a exhortor or servant. Does he have to go to college/seminary to use this gift within the body of Christ?
Click to expand...

I highly question the intelligence, motives and morality of most of the early founders of psychology. If you disagree with me and think they know what they are talking about just read Freud.

So my intuition about most spiritual analysis questionairres.... but sometimes questionnairres work well.
 
WHEW! I am worn out just from reading all of the previous posts. I believe that God gives us all gifts...and those are things we excel at in life. I myself have a wonderful gift of gab:) I love to share Gods word with anyone who will listen...especially children! God has given me such a love for children that it overflows into every aspect of my life. I have served as preschool director,sunday school teacher/director and VBS preschool director...can you see where I am heading with this? :lol: My Heavenly Father has given me the ability to translate His word into a way that young children can understand and for the very young it is about LOVE! I am wonderful at organizing big functions....those infamous potlucks!lol As women we can share our testimony with other women as it relates to WOMEN and young ladies. I would be hard pressed to be able to understand what a man, young or old, deals with on a daily basis as it relates to his beliefs as I am not a man. We are just wired different and no one will make me think otherwise:) I am quite sure that I am probably off topic but just seeing how someone might see these jobs that I have carried out in our church as almost a foo foo job,well I feel as there is NO more important job I could have...aside from my role as a wife and mother:)
"Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."
[Proverbs 22:6]

Shannon
 
Shannon,

I was just trying to make a point about the "foo foo" part. Of course I value Sunday school teachers and VBS staff. I've been apart of both as well. It's just hard being a church secretary and secretary for the church council. I'm involved in many decision making efforts and battles that arise along the way. It's difficult to know a woman's place when the men are looking for answers but yet don't want to necessarily want to hear them from a woman. Hence, what spiritual gift do I have, since I'm placed in many different positions? I want to glorify God but not be out of order.

Michelle
 
lutherangirl said:
"...If we don't receive anymore prophecies in "now-a-days" time, what is a prophets job?

Michelle
Click to expand...

A true "prophet's" job is ALWAYS the same, Michelle -- as is the message. And it really doesn't have much to do with "foretelling the future". It is about calling His people to "t'shuvah". That Hebrew word is usually translated as "repent", but it REALLY literally means "RETURN!"
(Hey, guys! You're GOIN' the WRONG WAY! And if you don't TURN AROUND and go back the other direction, the BAD STUFF He's already warned you about will happen...again.)

The pictographic meaning of the original Hebrew letters is interesting as well; it literally means "return - to the Father's TABLE." And the prophet simply points out that the 'rules' for living in His house, and "eating at His table" have never changed.

Check it out for yourself. Even the very NAMES of the prophets of Scripture usually telegraph their specific additional message, when "He does nothing but that He first declares it through His servants, the prophets". (For example, Yeshe-Yahu [aka "Isaiah"] means "Salvation [is] YaHu"; it is no coincidence that the One he Wrote of has the bookend Name, Yah-Hu-shau...Yah Who Saves, or "IS Salvation". And check out what "Yerme-Yahu means ...and Hoshe-Yah ...and "YaHu-chananon"!)
 
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