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Establishing the Calendar

BiblicalLiteralist

BiblicalLiteralist

Member
So many calendars, so much to discern. I had an epiphany today while researching different calendars and wanted to know the thoughts of those of you keep the moedim's,, in relation to it.

According to Genesis 1:14-19, YHWH created the Sun, moon, and stars on the 4th day of the first week.

Does this mean that the first month started on the 4th day? Or that the moon was not created until the 4th day of the first month?

It says the moon was created as a lesser light to govern the night so does this mean the 1st moon was a full moon? Making the first day of the first month a full moon? Or does this mean the 4th day of the first month was a full moon?

Do we know the season of the first week of creation?
 
RemnantResilience said:
So many calendars, so much to discern. I had an epiphany today while researching different calendars and wanted to know the thoughts of those of you keep the moedim's,, in relation to it.

According to Genesis 1:14-19, YHWH created the Sun, moon, and stars on the 4th day of the first week.

Does this mean that the first month started on the 4th day? Or that the moon was not created until the 4th day of the first month?

It says the moon was created as a lesser light to govern the night so does this mean the 1st moon was a full moon? Making the first day of the first month a full moon? Or does this mean the 4th day of the first month was a full moon?

Do we know the season of the first week of creation?
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Wow. I want you around sometime when I'm doing mushrooms!

I suppose my dismissive answer to all this would be that we err when we assume that YHWH's time measurements are identical to our own.

But I love these questions, because they're like Möbius strips. In a sense, the sun was required to make a day have meaning, and the same goes for the moon to make a (28-day) month have meaning. Weeks are also dependent on days, but we can dismiss that one, given that it didn't need any meaning until He finished the 6 Days, added the first category of Sabbath onto the end -- and called it a week (figuratively and literally). But, even then, you've identified something that can only be explained with pretzel logic.

In a sense, the first 3 days weren't even days (until maybe the next week), so Wednesday had to be the first day, and the Sabbath starts the evening of (actual) Day 3.

And thus, I believe I agree with you that Day 4 (or actual Day 1) could have been the first full moon (and I bet the Old Farmer's Almanac is hip to this) -- but my educated guess is that it's more likely that was the first instance of the New Moon (which would make more poetic sense), indicating that the first Full Moon occurred on Day 18 (actual Day 15).

I'm confounded by contemplating what season it might have been. My guess would be Spring, but we'll probably have to bring in some Young Earthers to set us straight.
 
Keith Martin said:
Wow. I want you around sometime when I'm doing mushrooms!

I suppose my dismissive answer to all this would be that we err when we assume that YHWH's time measurements are identical to our own.

But I love these questions, because they're like Möbius strips. In a sense, the sun was required to make a day have meaning, and the same goes for the moon to make a (28-day) month have meaning. Weeks are also dependent on days, but we can dismiss that one, given that it didn't need any meaning until He finished the 6 Days, added the first category of Sabbath onto the end -- and called it a week (figuratively and literally). But, even then, you've identified something that can only be explained with pretzel logic.

In a sense, the first 3 days weren't even days (until maybe the next week), so Wednesday had to be the first day, and the Sabbath starts the evening of (actual) Day 3.

And thus, I believe I agree with you that Day 4 (or actual Day 1) could have been the first full moon (and I bet the Old Farmer's Almanac is hip to this) -- but my educated guess is that it's more likely that was the first instance of the New Moon (which would make more poetic sense), indicating that the first Full Moon occurred on Day 18 (actual Day 15).

I'm confounded by contemplating what season it might have been. My guess would be Spring, but we'll probably have to bring in some Young Earthers to set us straight.
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Tonight I'll be dozing off wondering if, in fact, He didn't even consider those first 'Days' Days, only counted Wednesday to Saturday as a week, thus originally intending for us to have a 4-day week, requiring sabbath observation every four instead of every seven days . . .
 
We know the first 3 days are counted in the establishing of the first week, which ended in the sanctifying of the sabbath on the 7th day of creation week, as it is stated as such.

Because of that we know that a week is 7 days long with the sabbath being the last day in that sequence, as that is also stated.

So the questions that remain,

Are those first 3 days counted on the calendar?

What stage was the moon in when it was created?

And do the answers to those questions affect how the first of the month is established?
 
Love this. I dig these types of questions. Right up there with "why?". I recall the eternal struggle between myself and my teacher, who insisted I show my work to receive full credit on my math assignments. All too often we think we grasp the "formula" for God's heavenly and earthly precepts, when in fact we only have imperfect knowledge of a subset of the answers that are derived from that formula. Asking questions like these drives us to the uncomfortable position of admission that our answer key is lacking and, if we want to understand, we are forced to learn the formula via showing our work, so to speak, which was my teacher's (our Teacher's) intent behind the exercise.

Don't let anyone hinder you from questioning, brother, with a completely open, honest, and inquisitive mind. Test everything, especially those things any man tells you not to.
 
RemnantResilience said:
We know the first 3 days are counted in the establishing of the first week, which ended in the sanctifying of the sabbath on the 7th day of creation week, as it is stated as such.
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Ah, yes, great point. Genesis 2:2-3.

It would appear, then, that, if days that are dependent on a sun that hasn't been created can still be labeled 'days' even before the sun they're dependent on has been created, then months that are dependent on a moon that hasn't been created can still be labeled months even before the moon they're dependent on has been created.


According to that notoriously unreliable Wikipedia, the most common among the historical 28-day-month adherent cultures was to label day one of a lunar month the day of the New Moon, so I suppose I'm going to stick with the logic of equating the New Moon with the day the moon was brand new, making the New Moon starting on Day 4, but that also means that YHWH began His Creative Earth Work on day 26 of the lunar calendar, which means the moon was seriously waning when God got in gear Earth-wise, but if it was New when it was new on Day 4, then it was New.

This could be a case of whether or not a tree makes any sound if it falls in the woods while no one is around to hear it. Given that Adam wasn't around to observe the moon, which would fix the phase relative to an earthly observer, maybe the correct answer is that on the day of its creation, the moon was in every phase.

But on the other other hand, none of this is dependent on anything but the perspective of YHWH.
 
I tend to get "nerdy" about Genesis 1, and when He created photons, and so on, but not so much hung up on the "day" specifications.

"Evening and the morning: Day the first," seems to me to suggest that whatever the lighting might have been, He started the clock at 'evening', and went from there.

But, thereafter, and once those other markers were in place and running, I'll suggest there's an easy solution:

Start with the Sabbath. Count to seven. Repeat...
 
For some science nerd's ideas on genesis an interesting book is Fountains of the Deep by Steve Ross. Note: I'm not endorsing anything he says in the book, but it made for interesting conversation at my church.

One thing that I've always wondered is exactly when a day begins. This is specifically important for the sabbath. I have some friends who keep it sunset to sunset, and others who keep it sunrise to sunrise (and one more who keeps it from sunrise to sunset).
 
RemnantResilience said:
So many calendars, so much to discern. I had an epiphany today while researching different calendars and wanted to know the thoughts of those of you keep the moedim's,, in relation to it.

According to Genesis 1:14-19, YHWH created the Sun, moon, and stars on the 4th day of the first week.

Does this mean that the first month started on the 4th day? Or that the moon was not created until the 4th day of the first month?

It says the moon was created as a lesser light to govern the night so does this mean the 1st moon was a full moon? Making the first day of the first month a full moon? Or does this mean the 4th day of the first month was a full moon?

Do we know the season of the first week of creation?
Click to expand...
I've been avoiding this... but i'll drop a few questions and maybe a link or two...

1. Are months mentioned anywhere in that passage?

2. Is there any mention of establishing the calendar from a particular location? Or with an observation of grain in 20 diverse places?

3. What other lights were in the heavens and how might they relate?

4. If the heavens are telling... all the
earth... might there be a different calendar visible even from the islands and far coast lands?

And, for @Mark C 5. If the Shabbat comes after the work and the shmitah comes after the work, and the yovel comes after the work... why would we read that the day begins with rest?.. Maybe the passage says, 'Yah worked, and evening, and dawn, day one.'. .. rinse, repeat... therefore yom kippurim is specifically evening of the ninth to evening of tenth, not...simply the tenth! 😉

natsab.com

Pondering the Calendar… Is Hillel wrong?!?

I avoid calendar discussion and debates like the plague. Seriously. I HATE them, so usually when the topic comes up, I bow out or ghost… Just. Not. Interested. But, like a stone in my shoe, s…
natsab.com natsab.com
 
PeteR said:
And, for @Mark C 5. If the Shabbat comes after the work and the shmitah comes after the work, and the yovel comes after the work... why would we read that the day begins with rest?..
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OK, true confession time. I'm afraid you lost me, Pete...

PS>
...therefore yom kippurim is specifically...
Click to expand...
I don't THINK I disagree, but I'm honestly not sure.
 
PeteR said:
I've been avoiding this... but i'll drop a few questions and maybe a link or two...

1. Are months mentioned anywhere in that passage?

2. Is there any mention of establishing the calendar from a particular location? Or with an observation of grain in 20 diverse places?

3. What other lights were in the heavens and how might they relate?

4. If the heavens are telling... all the
earth... might there be a different calendar visible even from the islands and far coast lands?

And, for @Mark C 5. If the Shabbat comes after the work and the shmitah comes after the work, and the yovel comes after the work... why would we read that the day begins with rest?.. Maybe the passage says, 'Yah worked, and evening, and dawn, day one.'. .. rinse, repeat... therefore yom kippurim is specifically evening of the ninth to evening of tenth, not...simply the tenth! 😉

natsab.com

Pondering the Calendar… Is Hillel wrong?!?

I avoid calendar discussion and debates like the plague. Seriously. I HATE them, so usually when the topic comes up, I bow out or ghost… Just. Not. Interested. But, like a stone in my shoe, s…
natsab.com natsab.com
Click to expand...
First of all, my real name is Michael Moon, so I'll be somewhat saddened if the calendar is not actually lunar. But seriously great article. I'll be starting some of those videos in the article tonight.

Does "the Way" exclusively apply to the Qumran Sect, the (pre paganization) Christian Sect, or is it just a term that was used to denote true adherence to Torah? Or am I completely lost on that 🤣
 
StudentofHim said:
First of all, my real name is Michael Moon, so I'll be somewhat saddened if the calendar is not actually lunar. But seriously great article. I'll be starting some of those videos in the article tonight.

Does "the Way" exclusively apply to the Qumran Sect, the (pre paganization) Christian Sect, or is it just a term that was used to denote true adherence to Torah? Or am I completely lost on that 🤣
Click to expand...
Watch the first video and find out there's quite a bit of textual and circumstantial evidence that Paul, Yeshua, and some of the disciples were connected in one way or another w Qumran...
 
Mark C said:
OK, true confession time. I'm afraid you lost me, Pete...

PS>

I don't THINK I disagree, but I'm honestly not sure.
Click to expand...
My point is that I think a day begins at dawn... all of Scripture supports this... I've arrived here kicking and screaming... still love and observe as Judah in the Land and w respect to some in fellowship, but a day begins at dawn, with work, then evening, then morning, or daybreak. .. next day.
 
We have a twenty four hour day.
Did they?
I’m leaning toward day being from sunup to sundown, with the intervening part as simply night, not connected to either day.
 
Yom is period of time sometimes translated as 'day'... in thecxreation account, each period of time has both light and dark...
 
PeteR said:
My point is that I think a day begins at dawn... all of Scripture supports this... I've arrived here kicking and screaming... still love and observe as Judah in the Land and w respect to some in fellowship, but a day begins at dawn, with work, then evening, then morning, or daybreak. .. next day.
Click to expand...
I’d be interested in the scripture behind this. I can think of several things that seem to contradict it.
 
RemnantResilience said:
So many calendars, so much to discern. I had an epiphany today while researching different calendars and wanted to know the thoughts of those of you keep the moedim's,, in relation to it.

According to Genesis 1:14-19, YHWH created the Sun, moon, and stars on the 4th day of the first week.

Does this mean that the first month started on the 4th day? Or that the moon was not created until the 4th day of the first month?

It says the moon was created as a lesser light to govern the night so does this mean the 1st moon was a full moon? Making the first day of the first month a full moon? Or does this mean the 4th day of the first month was a full moon?

Do we know the season of the first week of creation?
Click to expand...
I can't speak to the timing of the first week, other than that I believe the time was established to correspond with what the Father was doing above, and the lights were created at the phase and location which set them to continue properly to indicate days, moadim, and rest days according to when the Creator was resting/ shabbating, etc.
As to the calendar phases, when Abraham was called upon to be impressed with the number of stars, it was probably a conjunction night. Genesis 15 12, 17 mention darkness. 430 years later, to the very day, Israel left Mitsraim mid-month. And on that same date many centuries later, Mashiakh was sought with the aid of lanterns and torches. John 18.3. So dark nights mid-month, full moon ruling the night last night of every scriptural lunar month, indicating new moon day (first day of a new month) the following morning.
 
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