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False Prophets

MarvelousMarvin

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Real Person
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Jesus warned His followers to beware of false prophets:
Matthew 7:15 NKJV "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."
While in Gallup on Tuesday, I saw a motorhome painted up with advertising saying that the rapture will take place May 21, 2011. So, being skeptical (especially about prophecies and prophets) as well as being naturally curious, I googled the date and came up with, among other things, the following article:

http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-01/bay-area/17466332_1_east-bay-bay-area-first-time-camping

I also found Camping's website as well as the websites of some of his cult's followers. But google that for yourself, since I do not wish to promote a false prophet in any way, shape, or form.

Harold Camping, according to the above article, originally predicted the rapture for September 6, 1994.

Sorry, my dear brothers and sisters, looks like we all missed hearing the trumpet.

Not to be undone over his mistaken prophecy, he claimed that he "may have made a mathematical error."

However, God's standard for His prophets is 100% accuracy:
Deuteronomy 18:22 NKJV when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
No "mathematical errors" allowed. Not even for an 89 year old "prophet" who has been studying the Bible for 70 years.

I actually tried to study out some of his teachings in order to know how to refute them. (A painful exercise which is not recommended...) He makes several basic errors in how he interprets Scripture, including the fact that he ignores anything that might indicate he is wrong.

When adding up the ages given in the genealogical tables in Genesis 5 and 11, he switches back-and-forth between using the age of one patriarch when the next is born and saying that one patriarch died in the year that the next-listed one was born. That allows him to come up with a date for Creation of 11,013 BC rather than the 4004 BC date given in Ussher's Annals of the World. Of course, he has an explanation of why - some novel interpretation which no one apparently thought of before. It hinges on two phrases used in the genealogical lists: "so-and-so became the father of x" and "so-and-so named his son x." This same re-dating of Genesis events also allowed him to place the Deluge of Genesis 6-9 as starting - uh, this is good - exactly 7,000 years before May 21, 2011, in 4990 BC. How this was calculated so precisely when no month or day of the month is given for anyone's birth or death is beyond me. You see, the rain started on the 17th day of the 2nd month of Noah's 600th year. (Genesis 7:11) May 21, 2011 is the 17th day of the 2nd month on the Hebrew calendar. I did not bother to check a Hebrew calendar to see if he is right about May 21 this year being the 17th day of the 2nd month; I just took his word for it since that would be so easy for even a non-Believer to check and call his bluff on if not true. He even allowed for the fact that there was no year zero. (The year following 1 BC was AD 1, not 0.)

And, of course, he uses Peter's statement:
2 Peter 3:8 NKJV But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
to "prove" that the seven days of grace between Noah entering the Ark and the rain starting is actually 7,000 years.

[humor]
Wonder if Peter would have written those words had he known how many ways they would be mis-used? First, the "day-age" Creation heresy; now this garbage! What's next? Maybe the Millennial Reign will be only one day?
[/humor]

Camping said that Jesus was crucified Friday, April 1, AD 33. That could not be. Jesus was in the tomb for three days and three nights:

Matthew 12:40 NKJV For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So if He was crucified on Friday and rose again before Sunrise on Sunday morning, that is only one full day and part of one other day, plus one full night and part of another. The tomb was empty before sunup on Sunday morning. (The RCC popularized "Good Friday" as the day of crucifixion; it has no real Scriptural basis.)

However, because passover in AD 31 was on Thursday, April 12, there were two Sabbaths that week. (Whatever day passover occurs on in any given year is called a Sabbath, regardless of whether it is the first, seventh, or any other day of the week.) According to NASA calculations, Thursday, April 12, AD 31 was a prime candidate for being passover because of the new moon. So Jesus was probably crucified on Wednesday, April 11, AD 31, and was in the tomb Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday nights between sunset and sunrise, and all day Thursday, Friday, and Saturday between sunrise and sunset, adding up to the predicted three days and three nights. The date of Wednesday, April 11, AD 31 is something about which we can not be dogmatic; it's just a likely possibility, but fits the known facts better than Friday, April 1, 33 AD for the date of His crucifixion.) (You can find a list of passover dates here: http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm)

Camping claims that Satan was bound during the Church Age, which he dates as being from the Crucifixion until the start of the Great Tribulation, which he claims was May 21, 1988. That 1,955-year period is the "Millennial Reign of Christ," which is possible (according to the false prophet) because "1,000 years" represents "a long, but indefinite, period of time" rather than a literal 1,000-year period.

But my Bible tells me this:
1 Peter 5:8 NKJV Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
That verse was written after the Church age began, during which time Camping claims that the devil was bound.

I quit trying to understand Camping's twisted thinking after reading on his website that the Great Tribulation is actually 23 years, ending on May 21, 2011, not seven years as is clearly taught in Scripture.

Maybe I should offer to buy one of those "May 21" decorated motorhomes for, say, $10, delivery to be taken on May 22...but if I do, I'll make sure to get a notarized bill of sale before May 21!
 
"On Sept. 6, 1994, dozens of Camping's believers gathered inside Alameda's Veterans Memorial Building to await the return of Christ, an event Camping had promised for two years. Followers dressed children in their Sunday best and held Bibles open-faced toward heaven.

But the world did not end. Camping allowed that he may have made a mathematical error. He spent the next decade running new calculations, as well as overseeing a media company that has grown significantly in size and reach.

"We are now translated into 48 languages and have been transmitting into China on an AM station without getting jammed once," Camping said. "How can that happen without God's mercy?""

One false prophesy makes a false prophet, and this can happen "without God's mercy" because it is of Satan.

These guys are all over the place...just as the scriptures tell us they will be. There is a guy here that proclaims himself to be the appointed son of God - http://www.kingdomofjesuschrist.org/ He too has a large following all over the world. Satan empowers these "ministries" which also fulfill the scriptures "many will be deceived".

Luke 21:8-9 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once."

2 Timothy 3:12-13 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
 
PolyDoc said:
...However, God's standard for His prophets is 100% accuracy:
Deuteronomy 18:22 NKJV when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
No "mathematical errors" allowed. Not even for an 89 year old "prophet" who has been studying the Bible for 70 years.

I actually tried to study out some of his teachings in order to know how to refute them.

There's a far easier way to discern a "false prophet" than waiting for things which may of course never happen. Even things like Ezekiel's tabernacle, and Isaiah 4:1-2, after all, lie - at least ultimately - in the future.

Check out Deuteronomy 13! The whole chapter is quite specific, not to mention blunt.

EVEN if what a "prophet or dreamer of dreams" tells you COMES TO PASS...but he tries to get you to follow "other mighty ones" instead of continuing to follow YHVH and His Word, to "...keep His commandments, and obey His voice..."

...well, there's more there than only do NOT "fear him", or even listen to him...

A false prophet is one who tries to get you to follow ANY other 'gods'...or practices that He did not specify in His 'teaching and instruction'. There is a lesson there about the many pagan practices of "Xtianity" which is VERY uncomfortable to those who have done EXACTLY what He forbids in verse 7 there, and a whole lot of other places in Scripture, for so long!
 
Mark C said:
There's a far easier way to discern a "false prophet" than waiting for things which may of course never happen.
Yes, of course - many prophecies found in Scripture are still in our future.

But the false prophet that prompted me to start this thread already has a track record of being less than 100% accurate, so Deuteronomy 18:22 was used as proof of his being a false prophet. And now that this thread is in existence, maybe we can use it to teach about discerning false prophets based on what Scripture says, like Deuteronomy 13.

Apparently, there is some kind of caravan of Harold Camping's followers going across the country with their vehicles painted up advertising his false prophecy about May 21 being judgment day/the rapture/etc. (Pardon me for a moment while my flesh makes a comment: WHAT IDIOTS!!! OK, I'm back. :lol: )

We as believers need to be vigilant and not fall for the teaching of any false prophet who comes along, and there are many. Some are not so obvious, but require a little digging on our part to show that they teach some false doctrine, while others are so obvious that one wonders why anyone would even pay attention to them.

Will the Rapture take place on May 21, 2011? Most likely not, but only the Father knows. We (and that false prophet, Harold Camping) do not know.

Maybe it will be May 20! Well, now that we expect it to be that date, it can't be - because Jesus said:
Matthew 24:44 NKJV Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Now that we don't expect it to be May 20, maybe it will be. But now, we expect May 20 again, so...well, just be ready, my dear brothers and sisters! He may come at any moment. :D
 
Should be pretty easy to figure out...

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I haven't seen anyone coming in the clouds...yet...and when He does it will be obvious...we don't need to predict the day, but rather be ready for the day.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Matthew 24:44 is a verse that quickly and easily identifies cults...anyone that claims to know when the Lord is returning is claiming to know the mind of God. This is one of the many reasons I quit going to Calvary Chapel.
 
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NKJV (1) "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, (2) and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' (3) you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. (5) But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

"Let us go after other gods." Like, perhaps, the idolatry of teaching that it is a sin for a man to have more than one wife, even though the Bible clearly teaches otherwise? The idolatry of teaching that government laws and regulations and courts, not God's Word, defines what marriage is and who is legitimately married?

If so, then 99% or so of evangelical preachers and teachers in America are false prophets/teachers. (100% of the cult teachers and preachers are false regardless of what they teach about marriage.) Including everyone from faith healers to Creation scientists. Including the big names like John Hagee and the unknowns like Pastor Whatsisname of the Last Baptist Church in Toad-in-the-Road, TX. Regardless of what they teach about other doctrinal issues that really is Scriptural Truth instead of man's traditions. And in spite of any signs, wonders, and miracles that may follow them.

Luke 18:8b NKJV ...Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?

Fortunately, there are still a few of us who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
 
PolyDoc said:
If so, then 99% or so of evangelical preachers and teachers in America are false prophets/teachers. (100% of the cult teachers and preachers are false regardless of what they teach about marriage.) Including everyone from faith healers to Creation scientists. Including the big names like John Hagee and the unknowns like Pastor Whatsisname of the Last Baptist Church in Toad-in-the-Road, TX. Regardless of what they teach about other doctrinal issues that really is Scriptural Truth instead of man's traditions. And in spite of any signs, wonders, and miracles that may follow them.

May I prayerfully submit that this is going too far?

Personally I agree that a man may have more than one wife, but it is only a view that I have crystallised in the last one to two years. We all are on a path towards discovery of God's truth, each travelling at a different speed and we will only reach the full destination when we die.

It is too easy to stereotype those who don't hold our own views at a particular time as 'false prophets'. In fact I suggest that a ready willingness to malign others as 'false prophets' is one of many indicators of cult-like behaviour. And I dont think anyone at BF wants to go down that path.

I know my own views on various biblical issues have changed over the years, sometimes even backflipped.

We should aim for inclusion, not exclusion. It is too easy to draw up lists of acceptable beliefs versus heresy. Many are invited to the wedding banquet.

ylop
 
"Let us go after other gods." Like, perhaps, the idolatry of teaching that it is a sin for a man to have more than one wife, even though the Bible clearly teaches otherwise? The idolatry of teaching that government laws and regulations and courts, not God's Word, defines what marriage is and who is legitimately married?

If so, then 99% or so of evangelical preachers and teachers in America are false prophets/teachers. (100% of the cult teachers and preachers are false regardless of what they teach about marriage.)

YHVH and His Word also defined what is set-apart as a 'holy-day' and what is not. And THAT set of idols is one of the few Traditions even more 'precious' to that 99% than Sacred Mongomania.

While the claim that His "teaching and instruction" is not persistent, exactly as He says, is arguably bad enough, I will submit that there is even worse. To change His "Appointed Times" that He said were to be honored "forever", so long as "heaven and earth" still exist, is inexcusable. But to do so in the name of false gods (or 'goddesses') "which are no gods" - with names like Ishtar/Astarte/Ashteroth/Eastre (or Mithras/Sol Invictus, too) and thus profane the most Important Event in all human history not only with idolatrous "traditions," but even RENAME them, is EXACTLY what that passage (and many others) directly prohibits!
 
Ylop,

Please note the two little words I used:
I don't really think that 99% of evangelical leaders are false prophets, but a large percentage of them are. How large? Your guess is as good as mine. And I'm glad I am not the one who has to judge that - it's God's job, not mine. We do need to differentiate between actual false teachers/prophets and those who, like many of us (including me), have been deceived for so many years, and pray that God will open their eyes as He did for us. Someone who rejects sound Biblical teaching and instead, twists Scripture in order to "prove" man's tradition, is very close to the line.

I gladly fellowship with fellow Believers who do not accept my new-found belief in Biblical Marriage, but some of them refuse to fellowship with me because of that. Those who are in a position of leadership and reject fellowship with those of us who believe in Biblical Marriage are, IMHO, close to being false teachers.

Then, there's the problem of the Pastor who says to me, "You can attend church here but you can't teach." Which side of the line is he on? Especially when the pastor in question will not take time to find out what I really believe.

Also IMHO, those who dis-fellowship someone who believes in PM are exhibiting more cult-like behavior than anyone in the Biblical Families family, including what I said even if you ignore those two little words, "if so." And someone who not only dis-fellowships a believer in Biblical Marriage, but tells his congregation that the excommunicated person has "gone Mormon" has really crossed the line.

And in case you didn't guess, what I wrote in this post is said out of personal experience. People who were close friends before I was excommunicated go out of their way to avoid me now. And I also suspect, but don't have solid proof (just circumstantial evidence), that the pastor who excommunicated me also called other pastors in the area to "warn" them about me.
 
Hey Brother Marvin,
Your recent posts reflect something that I think many here will already agree with. That is that many churches are either of false prophet status or have never learned what the Biblical make up of a church is supposed to look like. In Galatians, Paul writes about the fruit of the spirit and the works of the flesh. ?Care to put your head in the sand and take an uneducated, inexperienced guess at which list generally represents most churches today? Yeah, no challenge is it? Even when we are not looking at a doctrine, so divisive as marriage, there is very little of the love of God found in churches today.

The problem is identified as most believers and churches are in love with the world and its benefits and barely tolerant of God and His requirement of death to self.
But, the question remains, What can we do about it?

An evangelist of a century or more ago, Gypsy Smith, was asked by a man visiting from a distant town, "How do I get a revival started in my town?"
Smith replied by giving the man a piece of chalk, telling him "Go back to your hotel room and draw a circle on the floor, then get on your knees and pray that God starts a revival in that circle, then the revival will be on in your town."

I don't know what we can do about the rest of supposed "Christendom" and I'm not certain about what we can do for our own little corner of the world, but I do know that Jesus said things would get worse before they get really, really good. I am resolved to take care of the attitude in my circle of chalk and love those who are on the outside of it, whether they like it or not. :D
Do you think we can sell this idea to the mono only crowd?
 
John Whitten said:
An evangelist of a century or more ago, Gypsy Smith, was asked by a man visiting from a distant town, "How do I get a revival started in my town?"
Smith replied by giving the man a piece of chalk, telling him "Go back to your hotel room and draw a circle on the floor, then get on your knees and pray that God starts a revival in that circle, then the revival will be on in your town."

Never heard this before, or it didn't register, John, but what a great story.

Taking the idea further, or perhaps building on it, I'd like to highly recommend the book, "Concentric Circles of Concern", available at http://www.amazon.com/Concentric-Ci...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1301860218&sr=1-1. It has had an continues to have a huge impact on my life.
 
John Whitten asked:
Do you think we can sell this idea to the mono only crowd?

By and large, the mono only crowd is mono only because that is what they have been taught all their lives, and it never occurred to them (as it obviously did to us) to question what they were taught about marriage. That teaching comes from not only the Church, but secular society as well. In the US, as well as most other Western nations, marriage laws are based on the pagan Greco-Roman-Catholic ideas of "romantic love" rather than on the Bible.

There is actually a better way to tell a false prophet than to see how his teaching in some area or other lines up with God's Word. Remember, there is probably not one person on the face of the Earth whose doctrinal beliefs are 100% correct, because our understanding of the Word of God is incomplete - even Spirit-filled and Spirit-led men of God who have devoted a lifetime of study to the Bible. So how do we tell a false prophet?

1 John 4:1-3 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (2) By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, (3) and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

So, John, to answer your question: yes, it is possible to sell this idea to the mono only crowd. At least, those who are led by the Holy Spirit, not a spirit of antichrist. One who is led by the Holy Spirit will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23 NKJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Maybe it's time for PolyDoc to get inside that circle of chalk and seek revival. Anyone else care to do likewise?
 
ylop said:
We should aim for inclusion, not exclusion.

I have not excluded anyone who calls himself a born-again Believer. I gladly fellowship with other believers even if we disagree on something as important as marriage doctrine.

Instead, many of them exclude me when they learn of my new-found belief that polygyny is just as Scripturally acceptable as is monogamy or celibacy.

In fact, I was excluded to the point of having my ministerial credentials terminated and being excommunicated from the entire denomination, and the pastor responsible for that has been telling his congregation that I have "gone Mormon."

I am fighting that action since the two leaders involved (my former pastor and the State Overseer) totally ignored the denomination's rules for terminating a minister's credentials and excommunicating someone.

It would serve no purpose to elaborate on that in a public forum, so if you really want to know the details, send me a PM.
 
Segregating 99% of evangelical pastors as false prophets is exclusive and cult-like, no matter what little words you put before your statement.

One man's cult is another's gathering of true believers.

Your posts would be seen by others, as in by a reasonable man in the street, to be the proclamations of an exclusivist polygamist cult.

Which I think is not your intention.

ylop
 
ylop said:
Your posts would be seen by others, as in by a reasonable man in the street, to be the proclamations of an exclusivist polygamist cult.

Christianity is seen by the "reasonable" man in the street as being an exclusivist cult. After all, we say that if you do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you will go to hell when you die. How exclusivist is that? If I were more concerned about the opinion of the world than about knowing (and striving to live by) Truth, I would not claim to be any kind of a Christian. Not mono only, not poly. Instead, I'd look for some watered-down religion that includes everybody. Post modern thought says to be tolerant of all religions - except Christianity, because we proclaim what Jesus said:

John 14:6 NKJV Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Yes, I know that former President GW Bush said that we all serve the same god, but he was wrong. True Christians serve the God of the Bible, not the god of the Koran or the god of the Book of Mormon or the gods of the far Eastern religions. (Yes, the Mormons worship both a different Father God and a different Jesus that the One the Bible tells us about. And they get very upset when that is pointed out to them.)

In the eyes of the world, we are exclusive, because we say that we do not all serve the same God. Therefore, to them, we (all true Christians) are seen as being a cult.

Which I think is not your intention.

You are right about that. Believing that it is not a sin for a man to have more than one wife does not mean we have to act like "an exclusivist polygamist cult" and avoid fellowship with those who have not yet seen the truth about Biblical Marriage.

And as I said - I do not exclude any Believer, but will gladly fellowship with anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, even those who disagree with me about some doctrine or other - and that includes Biblical Marriage doctrine. They exclude me because I do not back away from Biblical Truth, even if it goes against the false doctrine that 99% of the churches teach, and has been taught first, by the RCC since about AD 1000 - 1100, and after the Reformation, by Protestant churches.

Those pastors and other leaders who are "mono only" and can not show us from Scripture that we are wrong, but exclude us from fellowship anyway, are the ones exhibiting cult-like behavior, not us.

Joshua 24:15b NKJV "But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
 
I know this is an old topic but I appreciate the wisdom shared here because I am having struggles with a close acquaintance who is all wrapped up in these self-proclaimed prophets like Kenneth Copeland (who to me is 100% bats*it crazy!)
 
I know this is an old topic but I appreciate the wisdom shared here because I am having struggles with a close acquaintance who is all wrapped up in these self-proclaimed prophets like Kenneth Copeland (who to me is 100% bats*it crazy!)
So far everyone I've seen who calls themselves a prophet or prophetess has been wrong. There are many people with the gift of prophecy who receive visions, dreams, words of knowledge etc, and most of those are legit (not all, people make up stuff all the time). But they moment they call themselves a prophet they head into crazy territory.
 
I guess that's the thing for me is that if someone is a prophet then it's obvious that they're a prophet because they're always right.

The false prophets are obvious because they're rarely if ever right and anyone speaking for God is going to be right every single time.
 
and anyone speaking for God is going to be right every single time.
Yes, but it's important to know that people can be wrong with what they think themselves. People often attack people who've had dreams etc because they've said something wrong, but they've said what they think is going to happen and not what God said was going to happen. It's important to keep these two things seperate, and many people do that perfectly fine.

One way to tell a false prophet is to see them intertwine the two of these things so it sounds like it's all God speaking, but later on when it doesn't happen they can pull it out and say it was just them suggesting that, not God saying it.

Also, dream, visions etc, can be symbolic. So, for example, I have seen the Statue of Liberty falling. Do I think it's actually going to physically fall? No, I do not. I think it's symbolic of the loss of freedom.
 
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