Fathers blessing

[Mojo]

Practically or theologically, what does it mean to get a fathers blessing? Besides good feels that is. In practical use it seems more akin to getting his voluntary approval. Is that all there is to it or is there more import than that?

There may be no explicit scriptural precedent, other than the concept that she s still under his covering/authority.

In practical terms, showing deference and respect to parents is amplified. That should never be a trivial matter.

We reap what we sow. I, personally, would take offense at some punk who ran off with my daughter without so much as a courtesy announcement. It would tell me a lot about him. It would say a lot about me should I do it that way (lack of respect for authority, etc.)

In most traditional cultures, taking her without a meticulous process involving entire families and even whole clans is almost unheard of.

 

[steve]

Practically or theologically, what does it mean to get a fathers blessing? Besides good feels that is. In practical use it seems more akin to getting his voluntary approval. Is that all there is to it or is there more import than that?

Good question.
Frankly, I think that we have completely lost sight of whether or not a person’s blessing or curse has any actual value in the spirit realm.

 

[HisSilver]

Deuteronomy 22 and 1 Cor 7 both make clear that the father has authority over who is daughter marries.

But today most fathers have abdicated that authority and have left it up to her to choose. Even the suggestion he has some say in the matter is offensive to most modern Christians.

Now, I got permission of my father-in-law before asking. But it was made clear to me by my then girlfriend that it was required. Back then, the very idea that such a thing would be necessary had never dawned on me.

Today, I'm not sure I'd ask permission if the father hadn't already made it clear that was necessary. But...

There is this problem: many of these same parents who refuse to play any role in who their daughter chooses, when they don't like who she picks will undermine the new marriage or do everything they can to support her when she blows it up, instead of pushing back in support of the marriage. I've even seen church pastors aid and abet their rebellious daughters, leading to divorce. Maybe getting his blessing or even permission would help prevent that?

I don't know. But I've seen families terminally undermine marriages often enough that I pause at the thought of taking on a wife whose parents won't stand by the marriage. Which presents a bit of a problem given how most Christian's view polygamy.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Did those with second (or more) wives ask their father's permission? How would the father even respond? On the other hand, you may wish her father to know your intentions are honorable even if he doesn't agree...

 

[steve]

Did those with second (or more) wives ask their father's permission?

We had a brother in the forum some time ago who was dating two seconds simultaneously and I believe that he did go to each of their fathers and explained himself and asked permission.
I believe that the relationship had failed with one of them, but he has been missing for some time.

 

[rockfox]

The question in the OP is one of those questions where I'm not really sure what the right answer is. Especially in these confusing times where we're at a cross roads where some have preserved traditions, others lost them entirely, and still others trying to recover them.

I was thinking about this and I think asking for my father-in-law's permission played some role in the durability of our marriage. A woman who doesn't have the right to form a marriage (because the father has claimed it) implicitly doesn't have the right to end it either.

In most traditional cultures, taking her without a meticulous process involving entire families and even whole clans is almost unheard of.

Yes, except in those cultures where bride stealing was practiced.

Good question.
Frankly, I think that we have completely lost sight of whether or not a person’s blessing or curse has any actual value in the spirit realm.

Yes exactly. We don't formally bless people in our culture. But I was reading Genesis the other day and it sure seemed to mean a lot to Isaac and his sons.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Something else to consider might be a woman who fits the biblical title of orphan. Simply put, a young woman who rejected her fathers matrimonial choice when she reached her majority (bat mitzvah) or one who was actually fatherless or without a kinsman redeemer, brother, uncle etc. She was then considered in charge of her own matrimonial affairs.

In a modern context, this may be a woman who’s father has been nonexistent in her life for various reasons, or one that the young lady is adamantly opposed to having any say over her life for whatever reason. In that case, it may be a good idea to find out if there is a male father figure that would be available for you to approach about the idea. Someone who will have influence with her after the marriage and can fill that role of support if needed.

If there is no one, that may be a red flag, but I personally wouldn’t dismiss her out of hand, just for that. I would however take extra precautions to ensure that all parties are on the same page and with expressly stated and written goals and visions, though I’m actually in favor of doing that anyway.

 

[rockfox]

or one that the young lady is adamantly opposed to having any say over her life for whatever reason

I'd want to meet the father and know that she had really really good reasons to reject his authority. And even then, a die was cast in her with that; I suspect it will be highly likely she'll be prone to rejecting your authority. Much like I've heard many many testimonies about women from divorced families ending up in divorce themselves even though they claimed at the outset to be adamantly against it due to the pain her parents divorce caused her.

Our parents model the relationship between God and man. Ones relationship to your father will greatly affect how you view God. So just the act of a father teaching his daughter that she needs his permission to marry will reverberate across her spiritual life in beneficial ways. The husband honoring that example in asking the fathers permission may well likewise have spiritually beneficial affects. I guess that presents a good argument for asking the father permission even when not required, honoring authority even when it's not enforced is a good example.

I wonder how much of our problems today tie back to classical liberalism's rejection of authority in favor of radical individual sovereignty.

 

[Isaac]

I'd want to meet the father and know that she had really really good reasons to reject his authority. And even then, a die was cast in her with that; I suspect it will be highly likely she'll be prone to rejecting your authority. Much like I've heard many many testimonies about women from divorced families ending up in divorce themselves even though they claimed at the outset to be adamantly against it due to the pain her parents divorce caused her.

I can see why you’d want to meet him so I don’t necessarily disagree with you. This was the case with my first wife, @Sonshine. I met him, not to verify her reasons, but to help restore the relationship between my soon-to-be wife and her father. This ended up not happening, at least not until the end of his life, but that was his doing, not hers and not mine. The meeting and interaction did verify, but given the quality of woman I had found in @Sonshine, I personally never would have had to meet him and verify her reasons and see them for myself as I trusted her. So, I see what you’re saying, but I think more can be told by truly knowing the woman rather than meeting the father who has had his authority rejected. For what it’s worth, @Sonshine is a woman who has never once rejected my authority as her husband, never failed to follow where I have lead, never once failed to submit. Not once in almost 16 years. Not even in those times when I’ve failed and not led as I should have. Perhaps the majority of women are as you assume, but not all, brother. Or maybe it’s just that @Sonshine is one in a million...I kinda think she is. Also, she’s from a divorced home.

Sometimes the picture you paint of women is so very bleak, and I understand why, but personally, I’ve not found it to be as bleak as you say. I’ve got two wonderful ladies from different backgrounds and both are stellar wives. I’ve noticed the same about many BF women as well, both those I’ve met in person and some just from the forum, @Foxlily included. I not sure what I’m exactly trying to say here...maybe they’re a microscopic minority, I don’t doubt that. Just wanted to give some credit and recognition to the many women on here who aren’t like those you describe most of the time, but feel they’re lumped in when reading your posts. Anyway, I do love reading your posts and more often than not, I find myself agreeing with your thoughts and opinions.

Blessings, brother.

 

[frederick]

Sometimes the picture you paint of women is so very bleak, and I understand why, but personally, I’ve not found it to be as bleak as you say.

If we look at the picture without biblical glasses on, I agree it looks very bleak. But there is an All-powerful God saving sinners (men and women) who is Himself sanctifying and transforming them into the image of the Son. That makes the picture look most promising indeed and is one I've enjoyed seeing first hand.
Back to the OP, recognising parental authority is important because it has implications for obedience to the Fifth Commandment. It's important we aren't seen to be setting an example that may prove detrimental to our own futures.

 

[Foxlily]

@Isaac I've not always been a wonderful wife.. long painful journey to where I am now.. God and @rockfox being integral parts. Rockfox cannot say the same as you in that I have never fought him and I have great sorrow from that time in our lives. So please leave me out of this one.

 

[steve]

@Isaac I've not always been a wonderful wife.. long painful journey to where I am now.. God and @rockfox being integral parts. Rockfox cannot say the same as you in that I have never fought him and I have great sorrow from that time in our lives. So please leave me out of this one.

You deserve honor in that you have defeated the enemies many attempts to destroy your marriage.

 

[rockfox]

You deserve honor in that you have defeated the enemies many attempts to destroy your marriage.

This 10 thousand times this. Whatever her foibles, she stayed in the marriage when we went through hard times an order of magnitude worse than those I regularly see take down other marriages. And for that I am eternally thankful.

A great part of her strength and spiritual growth is she is owning up to those failings she has had and views them with repentant Godly sorrow. I cannot say the same for many other women.

 

[rockfox]

I can see why you’d want to meet him so I don’t necessarily disagree with you. This was the case with my first wife, @Sonshine. I met him, not to verify her reasons, but to help restore the relationship between my soon-to-be wife and her father. This ended up not happening, at least not until the end of his life, but that was his doing, not hers and not mine. The meeting and interaction did verify, but given the quality of woman I had found in @Sonshine, I personally never would have had to meet him and verify her reasons and see them for myself as I trusted her. So, I see what you’re saying, but I think more can be told by truly knowing the woman rather than meeting the father who has had his authority rejected. For what it’s worth, @Sonshine is a woman who has never once rejected my authority as her husband, never failed to follow where I have lead, never once failed to submit. Not once in almost 16 years. Not even in those times when I’ve failed and not led as I should have. Perhaps the majority of women are as you assume, but not all, brother. Or maybe it’s just that @Sonshine is one in a million...I kinda think she is. Also, she’s from a divorced home.

Sometimes the picture you paint of women is so very bleak, and I understand why, but personally, I’ve not found it to be as bleak as you say. I’ve got two wonderful ladies from different backgrounds and both are stellar wives. I’ve noticed the same about many BF women as well, both those I’ve met in person and some just from the forum, @Foxlily included. I not sure what I’m exactly trying to say here...maybe they’re a microscopic minority, I don’t doubt that. Just wanted to give some credit and recognition to the many women on here who aren’t like those you describe most of the time, but feel they’re lumped in when reading your posts. Anyway, I do love reading your posts and more often than not, I find myself agreeing with your thoughts and opinions.

Blessings, brother.

Thanks Issac. You are truly blessed. From my broad interactions with Christian families in multiple states in different parts of the country I can assure you your wife really is 1 in a million. The vast majority of Christian wives, even in good traditional conservative circles, are not submissive. Though I have known many who claimed their wives were submissive but really weren't; simply because they were comparing to the world instead of the Bible or because they were suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or were too nice to ever contradict her.

If I were to judge things solely by my experience with my wife I would get a very skewed picture of the world; not the least because I come from a different generation and a part of the country that was already at that time a full generation behind the rot in the rest of the nation. But I watch, I observe, I learn from others about me and from those I interact with online, I look at the statistics, I read the Bible (e.g. Proverbs is less than enthusiastically positive about women), all without rose colored glasses to gather a broader picture of the totality of human experience.

I realize my perspective on women is hard for some to swallow. But I take women as they are, not as I'd like them to be, as the pretty lies our society paints about them would have us to think, or as they were in times past. Not all are that bad. But they all have the same carnal nature (just as do men). Forewarned is forearmed. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. A warning about the common fruits of female carnal nature is not an indictment of all women.

And it really is bleak out there. Marriage today is failing. Our social system is breaking down. Our society is one which has removed nearly all restraints from women while encouraging their worst carnal natures. American women are widely regarded to be the worst in the world. They are radically different from their grandmothers and greatgrandmothers. The current crop of young women is dramatically worse than those of even just 20 years ago. Men are increasingly deciding marriage isn't worth the risk (and quite logically so).

Yes there are exceptions, there are always exceptions. And counter trends (hopefully we here will be one of them). Being a man with 2 wives, you're the very definition of exceptions. Some women just have personalities that lend themselves to those exceptions even with all the corruption society feeds them. I may only have 1 wife, but @Foxlily's objections notwithstanding, so too are we exceptional. My wife is not as perfect as yours; but men who get to know us are amazed by her good character, behavior, and outlook. And I see how most other women behave. And I know my wife, I know the temptations of her carnal nature, the things even she cannot admit to herself, the things most women don't dare speak of to men.

But ultimately I am optimistic; or I wouldn't be having more kids and open to another wife. The women of BF really are extraordinary. It is my prayer that the people here will become the genesis of a new movement, a counter-culture, a remnant, that will help start turning things around and be salt and light to our fallen society. Despite the bleakness what we see around us is simply the flowering of carnal female nature from the fall; and we men are fit for the challenge.

 

[rockfox]

If I may try and pull us back on topic, I'd love to hear more opinions on the OP and critiques of my first post if anyone disagrees with it. This question is of practical importance to me and I'm not really settled on the answer.

And maybe a Torah keeper or @IshChayil can provide some input on the spiritual side of blessing? I get the strong sense we American Protestants really don't have a good grasp for its meaning and importance.

 

[Nikud]

A father's Blessings is important. I'm not just talking for marriage you have to look at the meaning of blessing and when it comes from a Father to start to see the importance in a marriage blessing.

The Hebrew word for blessed (baruch), comes from brachah (blessing), but with a small change in vowel, it becomes breicha—a wellspring of water or even a pool. Life giving.

Blessings are inherited by the descendents of the Blessed. A blessing is special favor, mercy, benefit, to increase, or bring down Divine abundance. When I “bless” you, I am asking God to increase your health, wealth, joy or whatever it may be, to shine His light on you… in essence, to give you more of Himself. God is the source of all blessings.

The Hebrew verb baruch means to kneel as seen in Genesis 24:11. However, when written in the piel form it means to show respect (usually translated as bless) as seen in Genesis 12:2. A related Hebrew word is brachah meaning a gift or present. From this we can see the concrete meaning behind the piel form of the verb baruch. It is to bring a gift to another while kneeling out of respect. The extended meaning of this word is to do or give something of value to another.

I ask myself what kind of man does not want the respect of a man that will be his father in law? What kind of man doesn't want to receive a valued gift from a man that will be his father in law? Modern Western culture mistakes the transfer of headship in covenant from father to daughters husband as a seperation of family when its a blood bond, a blood sacrifice that unites families through that covenant.

A father's blessing to his children is powerful.

The father lifts his hands, and the child bows his head. The father places his hands on the child’s head, closes his eyes and begins to whisper his blessing. It matters not if the father is a great sage or a simple man, the blessing draws its power from God because of the sincerity of the father. Think of the blessing that Jacob gave Ephraim and Manassah. That was from their grandfather. What man wouldn't want his woman's father to bless him in such away?

When a man bestows this kind of blessing upon another, there is a respect and love that fulfills the command to love your neighbor as yourself.

I'll end with what the poet Dan Bellm wrote: "I thought about this scene for a long time afterward, wondering, 'What is a blessing?' and really wanting one. Was this only an exchange between two people, or was something more present-something else? When people meet closely and truly, when a person blesses another, is God present? What is a blessing?"

 

[cnystrom]

How important do you think it is to have your significant others fathers permission before officially proposing and getting married

I think it essential if she is still living under his roof, and very nice to have if she is not.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

How important do you think it is to have your significant others fathers permission before officially proposing and getting married

Just found this in Ecclesiasticus 3:9
Ecclesiasticus 3:9 For the blessing of the father establisheth the houses of children; but the curse of the mother rooteth out foundations.

 

[PeteR]

Ooo… Nice!!

Just found this in Ecclesiasticus 3:9
Ecclesiasticus 3:9 For the blessing of the father establisheth the houses of children; but the curse of the mother rooteth out foundations.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

There’s a LOT of very wise proverbs and insight into family relationships in that book. I made it to about chapter 34 this morning. Loving it.

Also did some research into the exclusion of the deuterocanonical books from the 1611. After looking thru some notes on 2 century “canons”, I’m fairly convinced that they have a place of importance in the literature of a believer.

It’s almost comical how many men/pastors I can remember being all adamant about standing on and only using the 1611. The 1611 had the apocrypha. It was later versions that omitted them and that wasn’t even agreed on till mid 1800s. Too funny, kinda sad.

 

[Paulsen]

There’s a LOT of very wise proverbs and insight into family relationships in that book. I made it to about chapter 34 this morning. Loving it.

Also did some research into the exclusion of the deuterocanonical books from the 1611. After looking thru some notes on 2 century “canons”, I’m fairly convinced that they have a place of importance in the literature of a believer.

It’s almost comical how many men/pastors I can remember being all adamant about standing on and only using the 1611. The 1611 had the apocrypha. It was later versions that omitted them and that wasn’t even agreed on till mid 1800s. Too funny, kinda sad.

You are right! Both funny and sad.