Having Children

[MissMarlee]

I'm usually just a lurker, but a question popped up in my mind. When a new wife joins the family, when are children expected to follow? I was talking with someone a few days ago who said that when a second wife is added to the family, he plans on trying for a baby right away, so she has more of an excuse to stay and work things out through the hard times instead of run when things get tough. A man I once courted told me that right away wasn't the right time to have a baby because of other pending issues in the family, yet we never talked birth control. What is your opinion?

I'm personally of the opinion that birth control isn't necessary in a biblical family, provided that each child can be taken care of and the addition of a new child would not break the bank and lower the standard of living for everyone involved. What do you guys think?

 

[FollowingHim2]

Having a baby so 'she has an excuse to stay' is a terrible idea! The commitment to stay and work through the bad times should be there because you're married, not because of children.

It gets tricky doesn't it, trying to work out when is the best time to have a baby. Should you have one straight away, wait a year or two? Will you have more money then, will you have less? Will you be able to provide for the baby? How many children should you have in total?

You know what is much, much easier? Leaving it up to God. Have His children in His timing. God will provide for the children He gives you. Children don't need the latest gadgets anyway, they need love and security. Forget about contraception and just enjoy life .

 

[Isabella]

Having a baby so 'she has an excuse to stay' is a terrible idea! The commitment to stay and work through the bad times should be there because you're married, not because of children.
.

Not only is it a terrible idea, it is stupid and foolish. Society shows many examples of many women who would rather be single parents than put up with a relationship they are not happy with. All he would end up with is the possibility of losing a wife, a child and if he chooses to go to court he faces a major humiliation and possible prosecution also.

Utter fool.


B

 

[steve]

well said


also, children are small humans, never to be objectified as a glue with which to fix adult relationships.

 

[CecilW]

also, children are small humans, never to be objectified as a glue

Sir BumbleBerry observes that they DO produce some awfully nasty sticky stuff! Eeeewwwwwww!~

 

[FollowingHim]

I'm personally of the opinion that birth control isn't necessary in a biblical family, provided that each child can be taken care of and the addition of a new child would not break the bank and lower the standard of living for everyone involved.

I too agree wholeheartedly with the first part of that statement, but cannot agree with the qualifications that follow it. If we truly trust God, He will provide all our needs. On the other hand, if you say "birth control isn't necessary so long as we think we've got enough money for another child", then what you're really saying is that in the majority of circumstances, where we never feel we've got quite enough money right now, that birth control IS necessary. You aren't really saying anything different to the secular world, who also agree birth control isn't necessary while you're trying to have a baby...

The way I see it, God's a whole lot more responsible than me. The "responsible" thing to do is therefore to put God in charge.

There's enough to worry about in plural marriage without also trying to work out when is the best time to have children.

 

[ylop]

Hi MissMarlee.

For me personally, I could not be intimate with a woman and use birth control. I would feel like I was using her for my own selfish purposes, and attempting to deny God's plan for my family.

ylop

 

[chris]

Sounds like this is turning into a birth control discussion.
My two cents sure to stir the pot. We're called to trust God, We're also called to be good stewards of what we have been given including financial resources. Additionally, as Christians we claim that God is all-powerful. Therefore, if God is indeed all-powerful, how are you a mere mortal denying God the ability to give you a child. I've heard that logic for years and never quite understood. If you really believe that you are capable of denying God then He isn't as powerful as you claim to believe He is.

Regarding good stewardship, throughout the Bible I believe we can see the value of planning, of saving, having a vision. We are to be ready to change direction if God so indicates. Why is it that we all of a sudden throw that logic out the window with having children. Again, we can plan it, God may have other ideas.
End of my two cents...

 

[chris]

Say, Mark, would you be able to provide the reference. I ask not because I disagree but went looking for it and could only find verses around children are a gift, heritage, reward but nothing with English word blessing. To be fair I didn't dig into the Hebrew so perhaps it's the same underlying word?

 

[chris]

No worries, I've much too learn as well. To be honest I'm sometimes intimidated by the amount of knowledge that folks on here have of the Scriptures. It's probably a bit of pride, because in the churches I've attended I tend to have read the Bible more than most of the congregation... on here that's par for the course so I guess I'm overdue for some sharpening.

Anyway, that's interesting to know, and something I'll have to look at too.

My only other thoughts revolve around this idea. I need to go through Scripture to check this though.
I think wives are a blessing as well (but need to find whether or not there are references backing this... I seem to recall something along the lines of he who finds a wife finds a good thing but that's different than blessing). Anyway, on the premise that wives are a blessing as well, we then need to determine what type of planning we need to do in order to have a wife as well as additional wives. In fact, there is a thread on the boards right now about how we need to prepare financially, etc for additional wives. You can probably see where I'm going with this...
If wives are a blessing from the Lord and we need to have certain things in order before having another one (such as preparing to love another, finances), shouldn't we also plan or prepare for the addition of a child (will take time, love and finances)? It would seem logically inconsistent to say that we should prepare or plan for another wife but not a child.

Anyway, it's good to have someplace to discuss and think this through. Thanks!

 

[FollowingHim]

Psalm 127:3 is clear that children are a "reward" from God. Whether or not we call that a "blessing" or not is just word-games. At the end of the day they are something provided directly from God for us.

The Bible is also very clear that it is God who chooses whether a woman will have a child or not, through many examples when He has done just that, for instance:

Exodus 23:25-26 You shall serve the Lord your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you. None shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.

Genesis 20:18 For the Lord had closed all the wombs of the house of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.

Genesis 29:31When the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.

Hosea 9:14 Give them, O Lord— what will you give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

This last one I find fascinating. Infertility is used as a curse throughout the scriptures, while fertility is used as a blessing (for instance in Leah's case). Yet in our culture you go to the doctor and get a prescription for a curse...

The Bible never commands us to not use contraception. I think we can certainly deduce that some forms of what is called "contraception" are unscriptural, as some forms of "contraception" result at least part of the time in a baby being conceived but then dying, in violation of the sixth commandment (they are partial abortificants to be technical). However there is no outright ban on true "contraception" - ie something that just prevents conception. I just feel that personally, when I read all the passages on what is a blessing and what is a curse, I feel that it is more consistent with the general tone of the scripture to remain open to receiving blessings from God, rather than putting anything in His way.

Note that this is the first civil discussion we have ever managed to have on this topic. Please everyone, keep it civil, every previous thread on this topic has turned into a fight and has had to be locked. This is NOT a critical issue of Christianity, but a peripheral issue, for which Romans 14:5 applies - we are able to have differing views on this one. But it is very good to discuss what our differing views are, in order to learn from each other. Thanks everyone.

 

[CecilW]

I think wives are a blessing as well (but need to find whether or not there are references backing this... I seem to recall something along the lines of he who finds a wife finds a good thing but that's different than blessing).

Proverbs 18:22, Chris. "He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor from the Lord."

Is "favor from the Lord" == blessing? Works for me.

 

[chris]

I agree with much of what FollowingHim states, in particular the last paragraph. Perhaps we need to wrap up any loose ends and then lock it before someone hijacks it...

That said, I'm still interested in determining whether or not there are some flaws in the following statements:
1) Children and wives are a blessing from the Lord. We seem to agree that there should be some planning involved in order to marry a wife and yet not for when adding children. My point here is that seems to be logically inconsistent.
2) Regarding the argument that using contraception somehow contravenes the power of God. My thought is that either we follow an all-powerful God or we don't. If He is indeed all-powerful as we believe, then how could contraception keep Him from doing what he has determined will happen. I do agree with Samuel that those using it would want to know and understand how each option works due to the nature in which each accomplishes their result.

I'm willing to take these questions on in a more private discussion elsewhere if needed because while I raise the question I'm not interested in starting an argument.
Thoughts?

 

[FollowingHim]

My thoughts on your questions Chris:

1) Although we do put in a bit of thought as to our wives, and keep our eyes open, it is God who ultimately gives them to us. To be honest, when I thought about who I would marry when I was a teenager, I would never have picked my current wife. I was actually looking firmly in a different direction when God brought her into my life and made it completely obvious that this WAS the wife for me.

This is my general philosophy around wives - keep your eyes open, and pursue a woman purely to learn enough about her to let God prompt you through your contact with her about what His plan is. And He will make that very obvious.
This is my general philosophy around children - do the physical bits required for children and again leave the ultimate decision about the result to God.
I think these are actually about as consistent as they can be given the different mechanisms by which you obtain wives and children.

2) You might as well say "If God is all-powerful, we should be able to walk everywhere in the middle of the road blindfolded, and He will still keep us safe". But we don't do that. Why? Because each of us has a ministry we are to perform on earth, be it raising a family or leading a million-member church, and part of serving God in that ministry is keeping ourselves safe to ensure we are able to do it. We help God achieve this goal through us, we don't work directly against Him but trust Him to achieve His goal despite our actions.

God gave a very clear commandment to "go forth and multiply". We don't achieve that by deliberately trying NOT to obey and trusting Him to go against our wishes - we do it by serving Him and giving Him greater opportunities to fulfil that commandment in our lives.

 

[chris]

I knew I couldn't leave well enough alone...
We've already determined this to be a somewhat disputable matter (I believe that was stated earlier).

I'll be honest, I struggle to find the balance between the verses where we're commanded to be good stewards taking care of our families (I Tim 5:8), wise as serpents (Matthew 10:16), and plan for the future (Luke 14:28-30, Proverbs 13:16), which seem to imply that we're to use the mind God gave us to make wise decisions and those verses which effectively state we can do nothing on our own. I believe that one could make the argument from I Tim 5:8 that if we aren't able to provide food, clothing and shelter, we shouldn't be having kids. And yet we have verses stating that God will provide all of our needs... Again, I struggle with balancing these seemingly juxtaposed ideas. I'm worse than an unbeliever if I don't take care of my house but God is going to provide everything. Then we also have somewhere that a person needs to work in order to eat.

Regarding your argument on point 2. I don't believe the analogy is the same, you're willfully placing yourself in danger, I believe proverbs calls those people fools. From scripture I believe we can make the case that the wise are those people who plan (Luke 14:28-30,Proverbs 13:16), save ( Proverbs, 13:11, Proverbs 21:5), consult others (Prov 15:22) and allow God to change any said plans (Prov 16:9).

Tangent approaching...
Was the command to "go forth and multiply" a command to us all or specifically to Adam and Eve? I tend to believe it is generalized to us all, however, I would differ on the term command in light of the commands in Leviticus in which things are determined to be a sin or not a sin. If it is a command equivalent to the rest of the law then would anyone who is infertile for any reason be breaking the law? Are infertile couples less blessed and less loved by God? Are they living in sin? I'm fairly certain that we would agree that they are not. However, would we also judge them if they were able to be fertile only with the help of IVF?

Trying to get back on topic... so, let me ask this question. Are we then saying that people are okay under the Bible to use IVF and other sorts of technology to become pregnant but not able to use modern technologies in an attempt to better plan out child spacing? It would seem illogical to support the first but not the second.

My wife and I were unable to maintain a pregnancy for about 6 years and experienced several miscarriages before our oldest and before our 2nd youngest. All quite heart-wrenching. We were fortunate / blessed in that the problem was eventually corrected through weight loss and correcting a hormonal imbalance. Yet, I have personal friends who have been unable to conceive without medical intervention in the form of IVF. I struggle to accept that God is somehow less involved. Rather I tend to believe that God gave us the capacity to reason, to investigate and use what He gave us to do good. Oops slipped off on tangent yet again...

Well, I'm going to quit before I dig the hole any deeper... My intent is to provide more material and resources for those who come along and want to hear both sides of the discussion. :? Not certain I've provided a good representation but I gave it a go.

* EDIT: http://christianpf.com/money-in-the-bible/ for more references about planning, saving, God's provision, etc. I only used it as a reference to pull Scripture references and don't know whether or not I agree with any statements made on the page because I was only scanning for Scripture

 

[FollowingHim2]

Chris, IVF is not ok biblically. I understand that it must be terribly frustrating and upsetting to not be able to have children but IVF is not the answer.

In IVF, they take several sperm and eggs and put them together. Then some of those fertilised eggs are put inside the mother and the rest are either thrown away or frozen. Of those that are frozen many do not survive the thawing process. Life begins at conception. To then kill it is against the 6th commandment.

Sorry this isn't as concise as Samuel's posts but I'm sure he'll come on later and let you know his thoughts .

 

[Gillfam]

Ok I need to check the forums more often,lol! One If Jennie and I wanted a baby out of love great, but we would never have a baby just too keep her there. I want her to stay with all my heart, but if she wanted to leave so be it. I would never get her pregnant just too keep her around that would show I didn't trust her to began with. I would hope she took her vows as seriously as I did and never walk out on this family. I have to admit though at times I have thought about having a baby right away, but we aren't going to try we are just going to go with the flow and see what happens. Yah will send a baby if we are due one, but make no doubt if we are going to have a baby we are getting out of NM!

 

[Gillfam]

I do Oriental medicine and have found there are safer alternatives to getting pregnant and also have been way more effective than IV! Even then though I believe if it is Yahs will he will make a way. We should never force our fates on Yah. He will always give us what we need!

I knew I couldn't leave well enough alone...
We've already determined this to be a somewhat disputable matter (I believe that was stated earlier).

I'll be honest, I struggle to find the balance between the verses where we're commanded to be good stewards taking care of our families (I Tim 5:8), wise as serpents (Matthew 10:16), and plan for the future (Luke 14:28-30, Proverbs 13:16), which seem to imply that we're to use the mind God gave us to make wise decisions and those verses which effectively state we can do nothing on our own. I believe that one could make the argument from I Tim 5:8 that if we aren't able to provide food, clothing and shelter, we shouldn't be having kids. And yet we have verses stating that God will provide all of our needs... Again, I struggle with balancing these seemingly juxtaposed ideas. I'm worse than an unbeliever if I don't take care of my house but God is going to provide everything. Then we also have somewhere that a person needs to work in order to eat.

Regarding your argument on point 2. I don't believe the analogy is the same, you're willfully placing yourself in danger, I believe proverbs calls those people fools. From scripture I believe we can make the case that the wise are those people who plan (Luke 14:28-30,Proverbs 13:16), save ( Proverbs, 13:11, Proverbs 21:5), consult others (Prov 15:22) and allow God to change any said plans (Prov 16:9).

Tangent approaching...
Was the command to "go forth and multiply" a command to us all or specifically to Adam and Eve? I tend to believe it is generalized to us all, however, I would differ on the term command in light of the commands in Leviticus in which things are determined to be a sin or not a sin. If it is a command equivalent to the rest of the law then would anyone who is infertile for any reason be breaking the law? Are infertile couples less blessed and less loved by God? Are they living in sin? I'm fairly certain that we would agree that they are not. However, would we also judge them if they were able to be fertile only with the help of IVF?

Trying to get back on topic... so, let me ask this question. Are we then saying that people are okay under the Bible to use IVF and other sorts of technology to become pregnant but not able to use modern technologies in an attempt to better plan out child spacing? It would seem illogical to support the first but not the second.

My wife and I were unable to maintain a pregnancy for about 6 years and experienced several miscarriages before our oldest and before our 2nd youngest. All quite heart-wrenching. We were fortunate / blessed in that the problem was eventually corrected through weight loss and correcting a hormonal imbalance. Yet, I have personal friends who have been unable to conceive without medical intervention in the form of IVF. I struggle to accept that God is somehow less involved. Rather I tend to believe that God gave us the capacity to reason, to investigate and use what He gave us to do good. Oops slipped off on tangent yet again...

Well, I'm going to quit before I dig the hole any deeper... My intent is to provide more material and resources for those who come along and want to hear both sides of the discussion. :? Not certain I've provided a good representation but I gave it a go.

* EDIT: http://christianpf.com/money-in-the-bible/ for more references about planning, saving, God's provision, etc. I only used it as a reference to pull Scripture references and don't know whether or not I agree with any statements made on the page because I was only scanning for Scripture

 

[FollowingHim]

I'll be honest, I struggle to find the balance between the verses where we're commanded to be good stewards taking care of our families (I Tim 5:8), wise as serpents (Matthew 10:16), and plan for the future (Luke 14:28-30, Proverbs 13:16), which seem to imply that we're to use the mind God gave us to make wise decisions and those verses which effectively state we can do nothing on our own. I believe that one could make the argument from I Tim 5:8 that if we aren't able to provide food, clothing and shelter, we shouldn't be having kids. And yet we have verses stating that God will provide all of our needs... Again, I struggle with balancing these seemingly juxtaposed ideas. I'm worse than an unbeliever if I don't take care of my house but God is going to provide everything. Then we also have somewhere that a person needs to work in order to eat.

I believe we are to be good stewards of what God gives us. Being a good steward does NOT mean saying "God, please don't give me any more to take care of, I don't think I can cope with more", but rather "How do you wish me to take care of what You are giving me?". Check the parable of the talents. The man entrusted with the most achieved the most, the man entrusted with the least achieved the least. None of them said "don't give me this, I can't do it" (unless you count the man with the one talent who was so scared of it he didn't even try), they took the challenge and ran with it, and were rewarded for doing so.

It is one thing to plan carefully how to provide for your wives and children. It is another thing entirely to avoid having people to provide for in the first place.

Was the command to "go forth and multiply" a command to us all or specifically to Adam and Eve? I tend to believe it is generalized to us all, however, I would differ on the term command in light of the commands in Leviticus in which things are determined to be a sin or not a sin.

I don't think we can say it is a sin not to multiply. But God has clearly shown us His intention in this passage, do we want to follow His will or not? I don't obey Him just to avoid sin - I obey Him because I love Him and want to do His will.

If it is a command equivalent to the rest of the law then would anyone who is infertile for any reason be breaking the law? Are infertile couples less blessed and less loved by God? Are they living in sin? I'm fairly certain that we would agree that they are not.

Now that's a tricky one to answer fully without offending somebody! There is a reason for everything in this life. God has allowed them to be infertile. This could be positive - because He has a purpose for their lives that does not involve children. It could also be negative - it could be a punishment, the Bible clearly shows examples of that. I would expect the first reason is far more common. We should not presume aspects of the lives of others are a punishment for sin - more likely this is not the case, the truth is solely between them and God.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (John 9:2-3)

However, would we also judge them if they were able to be fertile only with the help of IVF?
Trying to get back on topic... so, let me ask this question. Are we then saying that people are okay under the Bible to use IVF and other sorts of technology to become pregnant but not able to use modern technologies in an attempt to better plan out child spacing? It would seem illogical to support the first but not the second.

You are correct that it would be illogical to support one but not the other. As Sarah has pointed out, IVF is actually worse than hormonal contraception. It virtually always directly results in the death of babies, as many are produced but few are given a chance of life. Many are discarded and die, or die in storage. As Gilfam has pointed out, there are natural alternatives to IVF that are often very effective.

Yet, I have personal friends who have been unable to conceive without medical intervention in the form of IVF.

The medical reality of contraception and IVF is very difficult to come to grips with. But we've got to discuss it, or people will never know. The past is the past, we cannot change it - but we can help others to make better choices in future.

 

[chris]

Well stated Gillfam and Samuel. My wife and I were able to use some natural remedies as well.