Husbands and wives; their authority in the home.

[MarvelousMarvin]

aphesis paraptoma wrote:

Isn’t the Lord through Paul elevating wives to the position of house ruler, house lord, governor or master?

You are quite correct in your analysis of the original Greek. As a side note, most modern English translations water down what the Bible really says in many areas - but except for the specific topic being discussed here, that should be in a different thread.

The model we are given is that of the relationship between a born-again man and Yeshua. We are subject to him in all things, but He delegates to us headship over (among other matters) our wives. In like manner, we are to delegate to our wives "oikodespoteo." (Actually, I'm reversing the type and that which is typified, but then, so did the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:22-33. Our marriages are shadows of the relationship between believers and Yeshua Ha'Mashiach, not the other way around.)

But one question: if a man has two or more wives, only one can be the "oikodespoteo." Yeshua himself said that no man can serve two masters. So would it be the first wife? That would make second and subsequent wives subject to the first wife rather than the husband, at least in "matters oikos." (Pardon my butchering of the Greek. :lol: ) I think God allows husbands the freedom to delegate "despot of the house" to whichever wife the husband believes to be best qualified, or to even divide the responsibilities among all of his wives, if he has more than one.

Or maybe a man with more than one wife should actually have a separate household for each wife? Much like Yeshua has a separate earthly family for each of us husbands who serve Him?

Please don't take what I said in this post as being the absolutely correct analysis of the husband's headship - I'm still learning about what it means to be the head of my wife as Christ is head of the church. It seems that every time I open my Bible, I discover some new tidbit of truth in this area, even when my intention is to study some other topic! As a husband, I'm still a work in progress, not the completed, perfect item. God is still working on me, and with not only my full permission, but with my pleading for Him to do so.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Aphesis Paraptoma,

So would you embrace the egalitarian view of male headship or the complementarian view of male headship over his woman? It sounded like you take the egalitarian perspective in that the limitation or restriction would include only spiritual ideas. Plus in that are you defining spiritual things as those things in the Lord to which is excluding physical matters or do you subsume physical matters into a holistic unit where that too is considered spiritual?

To make it more practical than theoretical would you say in the egalitarian perspective that a man may direct and govern his woman in spiritual issues like knowledge of the word and doctrinal truth but then he should not direct or govern her in areas outside of that? Or would you say that all things, physical and spiritual, are under the Lordship of Christ and thus as a man he leads the lady who complements him and though an equal she takes a functional role to to be led by the man who has been given a holistic stewardship over her in all areas as the Lord governs all things?

 

[Anonymous]

Aphesis paraptoma wrote,

It might be that in our enthusiasm to elevate the husband to headship, we could have gone beyond the inspired Word and might have missed the elevation of the wife in the home in this present dispensational of grace. In other words is the wife to submit in everything?

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:18-21

Some good thoughts, but I think we may have to take another look at Ephesians 5:21, again. In verse 21, "submitting yourselves one to another" is quite probably a dictate to the church of the Ephesians in general, represented by the federal head of each family, since women were instructed by the Word through Paul to be silent in the churches, but ask their husbands at home. If there were paragraph headings in Greek (?), I believe verse 22 would start a new paragraph.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says 1Co 14:32-34

To suggest that husbands have headship in spiritual areas only is to create a familial dichotomy, that would in most situations cause more strife than peace. The conflict is seen clearly between verses 21 and 22, in 21 everyone is submitted to each other and in verse 22 a wife is to be submitted to her husband and in verse 24 submitted to him in everything. Question: is verse 21 saying that my wife should be in submission to another brother in the church? Am I as a married, mature man to be in submission to another man's wife or even to a single lady in the church? Are adults to be in submission to teenage believers?

I appreciate and agree with your fine presentation of the wife's role as being in charge of the household. I would only disagree to the point that she and her responsibility and authority are all under the auspices of the head of the family, the husband/father. No husband of godly character and sound mind would endeavor to micromanage his spouses in house hold applications. It would not be in the spirit of Christ to suppress the gifts and callings of godly women in those areas in which they shine the brightest. They function as home-makers, best when the head/husband lets them know his desires and then he gets out of the way and leaves them alone. Even our Lord treats us that way, He does not micromanage us. He tells us what to do and then allows us with His provision and Word to do our best. Sometimes we make less than stellar choices, but as long as we operate within the dictates of our Head/Christ Jesus, He is pleased with us. I do not care what my wife fixes for dinner, as long as she keeps me in mind. She is a far better decorator than I, why would I want to tell her how to do anything?

Our wives are the master of the domicile, and we are their umbrella of provision, protection and support. We are not under them, but they us or else we rob them of familial security.
I think this next verse sums up the criteria for success in the home.

Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

 

[SherryQ]

The way I read my Bible it seems if I unite with a man I have authority underneath him. Does not 1 Timothy 5:14 mean a ruler or a manager?

To me a woman is indeed the manager of the home but as a manager she is under her lord, her head, the man she has chosen to place herself under. Does not the head have the larger say over over the manager under the head? Seems to me that is the way it would work. For me if I have chosen a man then I have chosen for him to be my lord, my head, and then if I am his manager he should and does have the biblical right to have the final say over all things. I think the key is to choose well. But the bottom line is if the man I have chosen to be under says to me, "move that table and chairs over there and place this up there and set that over there", then well by all means that is what I am to do if I am to honor my head. What else could Peter mean but this when he said what he did in chapter 3 about Sarah? Besides, even if I think it is a bad move to move the table where he wants it, or that something doesn't match by color or design is that worth me being disrespectful to the man I have chosen to love? I don't see that as godly at all but rather indeed stupid. Yeah, like really, c'mon, let's start a fight over furniture arrangement to prove I'm the boss in the home, really? I'd rather manage what my head gives to me to manage and do my best with it but maintain peace and deeper unity between us by doing what he says in those areas even if I differ. To do otherwise to me seems like placing materials above a person, my head. I'd rather live in an off color house with items not exactly in the right place for a woman's eye than to live in disrespect to my man. Ummmm, an eye for color versus an eye for the bigger picture of letting my man know he is respected should not even compare on the scale as to which one is more important.

Of course, again to me it goes back to choosing well. I would rather choose a man who will trust my judgment in those areas. But if I have chosen well and the man for some reason still wants something moved here or there even when I may not like it I might offer a suggestion to see if he will take it but if he still chooses otherwise then it is my responsibility as a manager under the head to follow through and to even do so with a good attitude too. Surely if he is as wise as I think or know him to be [I chose him right?] he likely has a good reason for the decision. But even if not with good reason still its just tables, chairs, colors and such and those materials cannot take precedent over a relationship as I see it.

Sherry

 

[CecilW]

Taking it a step further, SherryQ, the man is only a mid-level manager himself! Remember that he has Jesus and God over him. They give him lots of autonomy, but have every right to issue a direction and expect him to comply.

It seems like a good idea to choose a man who remembers that and treats his wife or wives in the same fashion. Too many men want to be the head in their homes, but forget that they are supposed to obey their own head, as well.

 

[porkchop]

Is this really a big issue? It reminds me of a line in Monty Phython's Holy Grail that says "Lets not worry about who shot who"..It sounds like a lot of paw gnawing over someone not feeling like they're getting their 'authoriti' and ego stroked enough. If everyone in a marriage really respected their spouse and had their best interest at heart I can't imagine that who gets to decide what brand of dish soap gets purchased being a big deal at all...Why wouldn't spouses work as a team, always?

 

[DMetzger]

Aphesis paraptoma wrote,

It might be that in our enthusiasm to elevate the husband to headship, we could have gone beyond the inspired Word and might have missed the elevation of the wife in the home in this present dispensational of grace. In other words is the wife to submit in everything?

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:18-21

Some good thoughts, but I think we may have to take another look at Ephesians 5:21, again. In verse 21, "submitting yourselves one to another" is quite probably a dictate to the church of the Ephesians in general, represented by the federal head of each family, since women were instructed by the Word through Paul to be silent in the churches, but ask their husbands at home. If there were paragraph headings in Greek (?), I believe verse 22 would start a new paragraph.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says 1Co 14:32-34

To suggest that husbands have headship in spiritual areas only is to create a familial dichotomy, that would in most situations cause more strife than peace. The conflict is seen clearly between verses 21 and 22, in 21 everyone is submitted to each other and in verse 22 a wife is to be submitted to her husband and in verse 24 submitted to him in everything. Question: is verse 21 saying that my wife should be in submission to another brother in the church? Am I as a married, mature man to be in submission to another man's wife or even to a single lady in the church? Are adults to be in submission to teenage believers?

I appreciate and agree with your fine presentation of the wife's role as being in charge of the household. I would only disagree to the point that she and her responsibility and authority are all under the auspices of the head of the family, the husband/father. No husband of godly character and sound mind would endeavor to micromanage his spouses in house hold applications. It would not be in the spirit of Christ to suppress the gifts and callings of godly women in those areas in which they shine the brightest. They function as home-makers, best when the head/husband lets them know his desires and then he gets out of the way and leaves them alone. Even our Lord treats us that way, He does not micromanage us. He tells us what to do and then allows us with His provision and Word to do our best. Sometimes we make less than stellar choices, but as long as we operate within the dictates of our Head/Christ Jesus, He is pleased with us. I do not care what my wife fixes for dinner, as long as she keeps me in mind. She is a far better decorator than I, why would I want to tell her how to do anything?

Our wives are the master of the domicile, and we are their umbrella of provision, protection and support. We are not under them, but they us or else we rob them of familial security.
I think this next verse sums up the criteria for success in the home.

Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

From a woman and wife's point of view, very well thought out and said! My husband is the "head of the home" and I am the "head of the house" He expects certain things to be done and things to function and operate a certain way within his home and his family and it is my job to make sure it does. I decide what the finite details of those things will be and it is his job to make sure it gets done. (me... "Don't leave your shoes in the middle of the floor or I'm likely to hide them from you" ...him "I work all day outside the home, you don't, you can wash my clothes"... both of us, we both live here so we both can pick up after ourselves. Do I "submit" to my husband's authority as the head of his home and his ability to make intelligent dicisions for his family? Yes, do I play mousey little "yes sir, right away sir, would you like fries with that sir?" wife Heck NO!
*Edit*
I just noticed this was kind of an old thread. Did I dig up something I should have let lay?

 

[CecilW]

I just noticed this was kind of an old thread. Did I dig up something I should have let lay?

Not at all. Happens all the time. We treasure new input. Dig away. :lol: