I First heard of plural marriage when...

[Wesley]

I can remember asking as a child... "why did King David and others have several wives in the Bible" ... As a young man with mommy issues it of course interested me very much; the idea of having many wives and a big family with lots of children! ... I can also remember the answers given to me not only then, but any of the numerous times I brought this topic up! Most common response to my questioning was to point out the incident David had with "Bathsheba", or being told that Abraham was simply lacking faith in Gods plan when he wrongfully harkened to Sarah's voice and took Hagar.... Needless to say, no answers ever put the issue to rest in my heart and mind! It's haunted me since I was a young boy!

I truly believe God has been gently trying to lead me into this truth all along! Oh how I wish I knew back then what I know now! Lol I could have shut down all those lame answers I was given!

Rusty

There is one phrase that is possibly the most commonly overlooked verse in the entire Bible. It exists in this verse...

Genesis 3:17 NIV
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.

Possibly the most commonly overlooked phrase in the entire Bible is...

“Because you listened to your wife..."

 

[rustywest4]

Did anybody else enjoy celebrating PURIM this year? ... A wonderful and very important day we remember to be thankful that a man "listened to the voice of his precious wife" Esther!!! Lol

Praise God for godly wives and their good council as help mates!!! I'd be a bum without my precious Audrey!

 

[mystic]

Out of the blue and with some drama, my brother told me he was pursuing polygamy. This project of his was fractious and dysfunctional and involved several women and large distances.

I was in my early forties. We’d both dissimilated ourselves from the Morg several years earlier. He told me he’d since figured out that straight-up polygamy has nothing to do with Mormonism and that it's alive and well, particularly in the non-Westernized world.

We discussed various matters related to polygamy: confidences, discretion, and loss of face; the absorption of Rome and its monogamism into Christianity; polygamy's tribalism versus the West's essential anti-tribalism; God's blessing of Abraham who had managed household discord; problems of the "one big, happy family" ideal; and more.

My brother's project didn't work out for him — those connections ceased; everyone moved on — but our talk remained with me, and within a couple of years I realized that my worldview had shifted. Dedication to monogamy and its baggage is no longer my path: I'm a polygamist.

 

[Wesley]

Did anybody else enjoy celebrating PURIM this year? ... A wonderful and very important day we remember to be thankful that a man "listened to the voice of his precious wife" Esther!!! Lol

Praise God for godly wives and their good council as help mates!!! I'd be a bum without my precious Audrey!

I know what you mean. That's one of the problems with the English translations that sent me to studying Greek and Hebrew.

Genesis 3:17 should read "Because you [obeyed] your wife..." rather than the way that it is presented in most English translations.

We should listen to our wives when their counsel makes sense, which is a very frequent occurrence. The sin is obeying the wife when she's telling us something different than what God is telling us. One example is Eve advising Adam to eat the Apple. Another example, a more current example, is a first wife wanting to be the only wife when God is leading the man to polygyny.

I guess the best way to summarize is that we should listen to our wives but we should only obey God.

 

[Wesley]

Out of the blue and with some drama, my brother told me he was pursuing polygamy. This project of his was fractious and dysfunctional and involved several women and large distances.

I was in my early forties. We’d both dissimilated ourselves from the Morg several years earlier. He told me he’d since figured out that straight-up polygamy has nothing to do with Mormonism and that it's alive and well, particularly in the non-Westernized world.

We discussed various matters related to polygamy: confidences, discretion, and loss of face; the absorption of Rome and its monogamism into Christianity; polygamy's tribalism versus the West's essential anti-tribalism; God's blessing of Abraham who had managed household discord; problems of the "one big, happy family" ideal; and more.

My brother's project didn't work out for him — those connections ceased; everyone moved on — but our talk remained with me, and within a couple of years I realized that my worldview had shifted. Dedication to monogamy and its baggage is no longer my path: I'm a polygamist.

Well said and congrats on your dissimilation. Based on the etymology of the term Morg I guess I dissimilated myself from the Corg. (Catholic + Borg) So I know how hard, and how traumatic, such a dissimilation can be.

 

[Oreslag]

...I read the bible.

 

[Wesley]

...I read the bible.

That's one of the best ways to do it. Abraham managed to come to salvation by a different path since there was no Bible at the time. That means that it's possible. His path seemed a bit of a struggle of trial and error though so it may not be the best way for us now that the Bible is available.

 

[Joleneakamama]

I was quite young, and my mainstream LDS parents talked about it. Then my Mom did some sewing for a wedding in a poly community, and we all got to go up there for the wedding. I was about 7 years old, and I don't remember much.
I did know growing up that my parents saw nothing wrong with the practice, and I'm sure that contributed greatly to my acceptance of it. My Dad even proposed to two other women, who declined.

For us life sort of brought the subject up, as my hubby asked a long time friend to marry him a few weeks before we met. She said no, but had regrets. It was about 5 years later, when her boyfriend decided he was too old to marry her, and dumped her (not too old to sleep with her of course) that we seriously considered the possibility. She decided that was not the life she wanted and went her way, and I decided that life sounded wonderful....providing you found someone compatible of course.

Now after about 13 years, I still think it would be great, if that is what God has for us, but I am definitely NOT interested in trying to make that a part of our future if it is not God's will.
Basically not much has changed since we started down this path, except that we are older and have more life experience.....and children.

We're just simple living country folk. Many hobbies and interests. Love watching our children growing up....and they do that in a hurry! Our oldest will be 18 this summer, and I'm very glad that they are growing up with a understanding of what marriage is according to God.

One of the saddest things I can think of, is all the people out there who don't have a partner, and how unlikely they are to find one playing by the rules the churches lay out.
Truth really does make us free.

 

[Wesley]

One of the saddest things I can think of, is all the people out there who don't have a partner, and how unlikely they are to find one playing by the rules the churches lay out.
Truth really does make us free.

BF needs a 'Like' button.

 

[starlit]

One of the saddest things I can think of, is all the people out there who don't have a partner, and how unlikely they are to find one playing by the rules the churches lay out.
Truth really does make us free.

I agree and don't agree with you Jo. I think there is a better chance of meeting someone if you "follow the rules" of mainstream society because for one there are more people in that arena, the people are more sincere, and its not so spread out. I mean i have been searching off and on (more on than off) for a family for the past 6 years and have gotten no where. I have tried every search engine possible to try and meet others who believe in poly but i either run into people that are not sincere, people that want more of a polyamorous relationship versus a plural marriage, or they are thousands of miles away (which im not against relocating and tried it before, but who can afford to hop a plane and meet every one you speak to). I am developing this thought that this year will be the year i stop looking and delete my online accounts, im starting to think 6 years on a fruitless endeavor is enough.

 

[Wesley]

I think there is a better chance of meeting someone if you "follow the rules" of mainstream society because for one there are more people in that arena, the people are more sincere, and its not so spread out.

Really? Let's look at that.

We have 100 male and 101 female babies born. (Sperm carrying an X chromosome tend to be slightly more survivable than sperm carrying a Y chromosome in utero.)

• Five boys and three girls never make it adulthood because of accidents. The insurance companies are right. Males under 25 actually do have accidents, including fatal accidents, almost twice as often as females of the same age group (source)

That leaves us with 95 men and 98 women.

• Two men will be gay and one woman will be lesbian (source)

That leaves us with 93 men and 97 women who might be interested in heterosexual relationships.

• 14 men and 9 women will be physically abusive (I don't trust the FBI statistics which show female abusers to be much less common. This is based on my own personal experience. The experience of others may differ.)

That leaves us with 79 men and 88 women who are willing to have a peaceful heterosexual relationship.

• 22 men and 17 women will be too irresponsible to actually stay in a marriage (Again this is based on my experience. The experience of others may differ.)

This leaves us with 58 men and 71 women who are capable of a functional, peaceful marriage.

• Have you ever gone to a church and looked at the ratio of men to women? 19 men and 9 women will be disinterested in Christianity, including Christian marriage, meaning that Christians cannot marry them. 2 Corinthians 6:14 (Once again, this is my best estimate. Other estimates will differ.)

That leaves us with 39 men and 62 women who are interested in Christian marriage.

And someone is going to try to tell me that Christian women have a better chance of finding a mate in the Legalistic-Monogamist society than in the Polygamy Community?

I really don't think it works that way.

 

[FollowingHim]

Nice theory, but it hasn't exactly worked out that way for Starlit. Why? Because the statistics are incomplete. I'm going to have to multiply it all by 100 to make this work in sensible numbers, bear with me:

Starting with 10,000 male and 10,100 female babies, assuming your numbers are correct, there are 3900 men and 6200 women interested in Christian marriage.

Of those, 95% are only interested in monogamous Christian marriage, leaving a generous estimate of 5% who would consider polygamy. 195 men and 310 women.

If these 195 men first married randomly among the 6200 women interested in Christian women, only 5% of them happened to marry one of the 310 women who would consider polygamy. Leaving 10 men who are in a position to take a second wife without breaking their current family.

And of those, only 10% will actually admit that they think that way, most will keep their mouths shut so they won't get kicked out of their church. Leaving 1 man who is openly seeking a second wife.

So, the 6200 women seeking a Christian man have a:
3900 / 6200 = 63% chance of finding a monogamous Christian man to marry.
Not great odds, hence why there are so many single Christian women in the church.

If every Christian man was willing to take multiple wives, they'd have a:
3900 / 3900 = 100% chance of finding a monogamous or polygamous Christian man to marry. There'd be no single women in the church except for those who chose to be single.

But in reality, since most Christians reject polygamy, they have a 1/3900 = 0.02% chance of marrying a polygamous Christian man.

Which is the reality for Starlit. The odds might be poor to find a monogamous husband, but they're even worse to find a polygamous one.

Now those statistics are all a load of nonsense based on highly simplistic assumptions and numbers that both of us pulled out of the air (lies, damned lies and statistics etc), but even if out by a major factor they serve to illustrate a point.

The only way to change this situation for women like Starlit is to increase the proportion of Christian men willing and able to pursue polygamy. And that's a very long and slow process.

 

[UntoldGlory]

Ha!

This reminds me of a post I made a while back: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4370&p=44944&

We had some differences, but ended up with pretty similar results, pretty amusing to look at someone else's breakdown.

Of course, mine was purely theoretical, how the breakdown *could* look, not the messed up, "barren of good husbands" landscape it is now.

 

[Wesley]

Nice theory, but it hasn't exactly worked out that way for Starlit. Why? Because the statistics are incomplete.

From the perspective that you seem to be reading them I agree. From the perspective that I was typing, I'm not so sure. I was illustrating why legalistic-monogamy doesn't work because it results in a lot of dissatisfied women. The statistics that I quoted seem to be complete from that perspective.

As for why it hasn't worked for Starlit, I will voice my own opinions on that below.

Starting with 10,000 male and 10,100 female babies, assuming your numbers are correct, there are 3900 men and 6200 women interested in Christian marriage...

The statistics that you cite are incomplete for your purposes because I don't see myself described anywhere in there. I'm a man who has never made a monogamous promise, not even once in my entire life, and is willing to let the first wife depart if she changes her mind about polygamy after having entered the relationship with full knowledge that I am a polygynist.

• Trying to control a woman = bad idea. The word 'submit', as it is used in the Bible, is a verb not a noun. It is something that a woman does not something that is done to her.
  
• Trying to control me = a VERY bad idea because I am well aware of the fact that there is no verse in the entire Bible that says "husbands submit yourselves to your wives." And in fact it says exactly the opposite. (Genesis 3:17) Hence when a woman tries to control me to the extent of telling me that I can't be polygynous she learns that it doesn't work and that her options are to either get used to it or leave.

I don't see any other way to be fair to a second woman who has dealt with me in good faith and is trying to be a second wife rather than trying to take me away from my first wife.

The available options are...

• Submit to my first wife's desires by turning away the potential second wife, a woman who has dealt with me in good faith.
  • Not fair to me because the first wife made a promise and is breaking it
  • Not fair to second wife because she has dealt with us in good faith and is disgraced by being sent away (Exodus 21:8)
  • Not fair to God because He wants His daughters taken care of (1 Peter 3:7) and He neither commanded nor authorized me to submit to my wife rather than to Him. (Genesis 3:17)

• Send the first wife away because she's being disobedient
  • Unacceptable because sending a wife away for any reason except sexual immorality is adultery (Matthew 5:32)
  • Unacceptable because God also neither commanded nor authorized a man to submit to his second wife in this regard any more than the first (again, Genesis 3:17)

• Attempt to continue the relationship with both women hoping that neither one chooses to leave
  • This is the only biblically acceptable option from my perspective
  • If the first wife chooses to leave then she is worse than an unbeliever for neglecting to take care of the members of her household (1 Timothy 5:8) and thus I am not bound in the situation. (1 Corinthians 7:15) The sin is on her and is thus between her and God. (John 8:7) So long as I have dealt with her in good faith to the promises I have made (which have never included a monogamous promise) then I have committed no sin.
  • If the second wife chooses to leave she may or may not be sinning depending on whether the marriage has been consummated or not but any sin that occurs is between her and God. (John 8:7) So long as I have dealt with her in good faith to the promises I have made (which have never included a monogamous promise) then I have committed no sin.

Now those statistics are all a load of nonsense based on highly simplistic assumptions and numbers that both of us pulled out of the air (lies, damned lies and statistics etc), but even if out by a major factor they serve to illustrate a point.

Even if they are a bit off we seem to agree that they accurately depict the situation in that there are a lot more marriage-minded women than there are marriage-minded men, by a factor of at least 3/2 if not 2/1. So I believe we can continue the discussion without calling anyone a liar especially since I was very clear that the numbers that I gave were my own estimations.

The only way to change this situation for women like Starlit is to increase the proportion of Christian men willing and able to pursue polygamy. And that's a very long and slow process.

The hole that I see in your theory is that there are a lot of polygamous men on groups like this one. It would seem to me that a woman would have a selection available. It may require relocation but relocation to be with a new husband/wife is pretty much required by Genesis 2:24 so I'm not sure I see the problem.

I have to wonder if women who seek to be a second wife are listening to their own fears of being burned (again) rather than listening to the Holy Spirit. The fears are justified but fear makes us doubt and here is what James had to say about doubt...

James 1:6-7 NIV
6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

The way that I read it, Christ also has something to say about such fears. (Out of respect I will let Him have the last word in this comment.)

Matthew 6:25-34 NIV
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[FollowingHim]

If I called you a liar, I called me one too... I was simply pointing out that statistics are unreliable using a well-known quote. To the rest of your post, as I said, the logic is highly simplistic in all our calculations.

 

[Wesley]

If I called you a liar, I called me one too... I was simply pointing out that statistics are unreliable using a well-known quote.

Understood. Thanks for clarifying.

To the rest of your post, as I said, the logic is highly simplistic in all our calculations.

Simplistic?

By God's standards probably. His mind is way beyond anything we could even imagine.

By human standards I'm not sure that I can agree with that.

 

[Sonny Chancelor]

Out of the blue and with some drama, my brother told me he was pursuing polygamy. This project of his was fractious and dysfunctional and involved several women and large distances.

I was in my early forties. We’d both dissimilated ourselves from the Morg several years earlier. He told me he’d since figured out that straight-up polygamy has nothing to do with Mormonism and that it's alive and well, particularly in the non-Westernized world.

We discussed various matters related to polygamy: confidences, discretion, and loss of face; the absorption of Rome and its monogamism into Christianity; polygamy's tribalism versus the West's essential anti-tribalism; God's blessing of Abraham who had managed household discord; problems of the "one big, happy family" ideal; and more.

My brother's project didn't work out for him — those connections ceased; everyone moved on — but our talk remained with me, and within a couple of years I realized that my worldview had shifted. Dedication to monogamy and its baggage is no longer my path: I'm a polygamist.

I had the same talk with my brother too...not too long ago

 

[Mojo]

Since I began studying the Bible seriously in my teens, I guess I started believing that if the patriarchs weren't chided for it and it was regulated by The Law, it must be okay. Didn't really think of it since our culture says no. Always told my Mrs. that I only disagreed with FLDS on doctrine, not polygamy.

When our prospective 2nd wife came on the scene, found Dr. Luck and this site and was flabbergasted that professing conservative Christians were involved or accepted.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Another good thread for newbies to read and contribute to.

 

[MeganC]

Another good thread for newbies to read and contribute to.

Yes Ma'am!!!

So it's 2008 and I'm watching TV one day and the news is about the raid on the FLDS ranch in Waco. Everyone else was all shocked-face about the polygamy and I was fascinated with the idea that none of the women had to be alone with a man. That was a big deal to me then and to some extent it still is. The FLDS have bad taste in fashions but at least they looked clean and their kids looked happy aside from the storm troopers in their homes.

That got me interested in poly and when I got my computer for my 18th birthday I started looking around. Dating sites were a bust because all I got was a lot of pictures of men's private parts. Amazing that these men can't figure out why women don't like them!

I found the SacPoly Yahoo group and mostly lurked...hate to say like I did here for a long time too. I met some people for coffee and then visited with two couples. In both cases it seemed like the men were all down with the idea and their wives not so much.

Then I met Christie and we had coffee like two or three times. Then I visited the house. At that time the family was Steve, Shari, and Christie and Shari's three daughters and Christie's boy. After that I moved in as a helper but that was really like a chance to see if everyone liked me and if I was okay with everything. And I was. And here I am!