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Imputed righteousness and Torah observance

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Bartato

Seasoned Member
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This post is mainly a question, for the Torah Observance/Hebrew roots folks here.

What do you all believe or think about the doctrine of "imputed righteousness"?

Do you hold to that doctrine? Do you believe it is compatible with the Torah observance/Hebrew roots movement?

For those not familiar with the phrase "imputed righteousness", here is a brief overview of this doctrine.

When Christ died on the cross, He bore the wrath of God, taking the guilt, and paying the penalty of sin for all those who come to Him in genuine faith. Basically, He took the punishment that they deserve. He paid their bill.

"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5-6 NKJV)

There is also a second part to the doctrine of imputation. That is the crediting of Christ's goodness and obedience to all who belong to Him by faith. Jesus didn't just bear our penalty, but also perfectly pleased God, earning eternal life for us.

Jesus perfectly pleased God. He actually earned Heaven with His loving submission to the Father during His earthly life, and this goodness is positively credited to the one who belongs to Christ.

Under this view, our ultimate and final acceptance by God is based on the fact that Jesus perfectly served the Father, and that we belong to Jesus, rather than the fact that we ourselves actually obeyed God.

That doesn't mean that we don't obey God. Everyone who has been born again by the Holy Spirit loves God, and wants to obey Him. That obedience however is the fruit of our acceptance by God rather than being part of the basis of that acceptance.

Any thoughts?
 
One way I've been looking at it is similar to marriage. A woman who belongs to a husband, she effectively transfers all of her actions to him, both good and bad. The husband has to give payment for her sins, because we never see any woman ever be commanded to give payment for sin, except it be a sin in which the death penalty is applied. A woman without a man has no means of covering her own sins.

Israel, as the bride of Christ, someday will fall under His covering. And so Israel's sins will be remembered no more, (Jer31) because they are transferred up to the Messiah. To abandon Messiah leaves one without any covering, and so that man's sin, and presumably the sins of his women, all fall on him. If he falls, everyone he represents falls with him. Just as Adam represented mankind, and so all mankind fell when Adam fell.

If Messiah rises, then everyone He represents rise with Him. He will recognize those who love Him, and "if you love (Him), you will obey (His) commandments."

So to a great degree, yes, imputed righteousness is part of the Torah-keeping concept as far as I see it. But this should not be a surprise, as every year the High priest would enter the sanctuary and offer a burnt offering for the sins of the whole nation of Israel. The High Priest's number was job was to enter as a representative of others and achieve "imputed righteousness" for everyone in Israel. The High Priest being the foreshadowing of the Messiah and His role.
 
This is proto-Calvinism, or maybe actual Calvinism. Obedience wouldn’t be a command if it flowed naturally from salvation. Obedience is an ongoing act of sacrifice. It’s a continuing dying to self.

You know from your own life that obedience never comes naturally or even effortlessly.
 
It is a nice sounding theory, but it is much safer to take responsibility.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
The Revolting Man said:
This is proto-Calvinism, or maybe actual Calvinism. Obedience wouldn’t be a command if it flowed naturally from salvation. Obedience is an ongoing act of sacrifice. It’s a continuing dying to self.

You know from your own life that obedience never comes naturally or even effortlessly.
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You are correct when you say this doctrine is related to Calvinism. I believe this doctrine is at the very heart of the Protestant or Reformed understanding of the Christian faith.

Christ alone
Grace alone
Faith alone
Scripture alone
All Glory to God alone

Right at the center of it is "The righteousness of Christ received by faith".

The Roman Catholic Church holds to the contrary doctrine of "infused righteousness". According to that view, we are ultimately accepted by God because we actually obey Him perfectly. In that view, Christ infuses goodness and grace into us by the Holy Spirit enabling us to eventually become perfect, and then ultimately be accepted based on that actual perfection. That is a tall order, and is why purgatory is required.

I'm trying to figure out if the Torah Observant/ Hebrew Roots hold to a type of imputed righteousness or infused righteousness.
 
Bartato said:
You are correct when you say this doctrine is related to Calvinism. I believe this doctrine is at the very heart of the Protestant or Reformed understanding of the Christian faith.

Christ alone
Grace alone
Faith alone
Scripture alone
All Glory to God alone

Right at the center of it is "The righteousness of Christ received by faith".

The Roman Catholic Church holds to the contrary doctrine of "infused righteousness". According to that view, we are ultimately accepted by God because we actually obey Him perfectly. In that view, Christ infuses goodness and grace into us by the Holy Spirit enabling us to eventually become perfect, and then ultimately be accepted based on that actual perfection. That is a tall order, and is why purgatory is required.

I'm trying to figure out if the Torah Observant/ Hebrew Roots hold to a type of imputed righteousness or infused righteousness.
Click to expand...
Neither. None is righteous, no not one. We believe in grace, an incredibly easy, cheap (to us) grace.
 
The Revolting Man said:
This is proto-Calvinism, or maybe actual Calvinism. Obedience wouldn’t be a command if it flowed naturally from salvation. Obedience is an ongoing act of sacrifice. It’s a continuing dying to self.

You know from your own life that obedience never comes naturally or even effortlessly.
Click to expand...
Naturally and effortlessly are different categories. Obedience to God may not be easy for the child of God, yet it does accord with his new nature.

I would suggest that our behavior flows out of our nature. Things may come to us naturally, even though we struggle to do them.

Adam fell and became a sinner. We were all born in Adam, as sinners, with a sinful nature. Sin came naturally to us. We did evil because we were fallen.

There is also a second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. The man that has been born again, in Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit has a different nature. That man's nature now accords with the will of God.
"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." (1 John 3:3 NKJV)

The man who hopes in God will work out his salvation in fear and trembling. He will fight the good fight. He will struggle, sweat, and bleed as he seeks to follow Christ. It is a sacrifice. It is a dying to self, yet the believer still does it. He does it because he has a new and living hope. He does it because he now belongs to Christ. The branch produces good fruit because it abides in the Vine and the Life of the Vine flows through the branch.
 
steve said:
Grace plus obedience.
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That right. Wherever there is grace, obedience will always accompany it and flow from it. Still, grace is the foundation and obedience the outcome so that no man can boast before God.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV)

Obedience is a fruit, and it is not optional
 
Bartato said:
Wherever there is grace, obedience will always accompany it and flow from it. Still, grace is the foundation and obedience the outcome so that no man can boast before God.
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I’m sorry, but this view is delusional.
Look at the state of so-called Christians and show me how obedience has been flowing from the grace.
 
steve said:
I’m sorry, but this view is delusional.
Look at the state of so-called Christians and show me how obedience has been flowing from the grace.
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Most aren't regenerate, and poor teaching harms those that are. The gate is narrow and the way difficult. There are few that go that way

That said, I have seen genuine fruit
 
Bartato said:
That right. Wherever there is grace, obedience will always accompany it and flow from it. Still, grace is the foundation and obedience the outcome so that no man can boast before God.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV)

Obedience is a fruit, and it is not optional
Click to expand...
So why does God withhold Grace from so many people? Including me for most of my life?
 
Probably because we are screaching harpies who hate everything he stands for.

As a dude, I tend to avoid such women... Is it such a stretch for Him to avoid those He knows hate Him?
 
Bartato said:
This post is mainly a question, for the Torah Observance/Hebrew roots folks here.

What do you all believe or think about the doctrine of "imputed righteousness"?

Do you hold to that doctrine? Do you believe it is compatible with the Torah observance/Hebrew roots movement?
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with it, it doesn’t fit the rest of the NT. That has nothing nothing to with Torah observance/Hebrew Roots.
 
DawoodSaar said:
Probably because we are screaching harpies who hate everything he stands for.

As a dude, I tend to avoid such women... Is it such a stretch for Him to avoid those He knows hate Him?
Click to expand...
You seem to be answering TRM, but I can’t make sense out of it.
TRM is not a screeching harpie who hates anything that He stands for. Although he can get a bit fefferred up defending his beliefs.
 
steve said:
You seem to be answering TRM, but I can’t make sense out of it.
TRM is not a screeching harpie who hates anything that He stands for. Although he can get a bit fefferred up defending his beliefs.
Click to expand...
I don't think DawoodSaar meant to insult TRM in any way. I think he was just commenting on the fallen state of humanity in general. Like Paul said in Romans 3:11-12 (quoting Psalms)

"There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
 
steve said:
I don’t agree with it, it doesn’t fit the rest of the NT. That has nothing nothing to with Torah observance/Hebrew Roots.
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Thank for the clear answer Steve. 👍

I believe the doctrine of imputation is true and very important to the Biblical faith (but the truthfulness of this doctrine is really beyond the intended scope of this post).

I'm especially curious what PeteR thinks about the topic knowing that he is a notable teacher of the Hebrew Roots/Torah Observance view and comes from a background in the "Reformed tradition". He probably understands both doctrines better than I do, and might have particular insight regarding their compatibility or lack thereof.
 
DawoodSaar said:
Probably because we are screaching harpies who hate everything he stands for.

As a dude, I tend to avoid such women... Is it such a stretch for Him to avoid those He knows hate Him?
Click to expand...
I’ve never hated God. I’ve been through periods where my only desire was to come into obedience and I couldn’t. This doctrine doesn’t work when it meets the real world. Your God has to be an evil tyrant who fates some people to wrath.
 
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