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Is God the source of evil?
- Thread starter Mage
- Start date
I don't think this is a false dichotomy. Christ points out that God an Satan are diametrically opposed in John 8
So @Keith Martin I'm still trying to wrap my head around your position. So evil is good and our sinful nature is good but we're also guilty? What are we guilty of if our sin is good?
IMO the biggest issue that Calvinism completely misses is that we are all predestined to hell, not heaven.
This could be fun, but it could also be boring. I look at things one way, and you look at them another. I've attempted to lay out the logic behind my philosophy and even attempted to lay out the logic behind my logic. It could descend into total absurdity if I attempt to lay out the logic behind the logic of my original logic, so I'm just going to cry uncle instead of trying to kick Lucy's football in a game in which one of us pretends to agree with the other only to rearrange the words into another salad designed to trip up the other. The last thing I want to do is to end up on the head of a pin dancing with angels, fallen or otherwise.
Peace out on this one!
Keith doesn’t wish to defend His position of ascribing evil to our Holy God.
I applaud his bowing out.
As for me, although I think tulips are pretty... I surely reject Calvin’s!
For God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
I applaud his bowing out.
As for me, although I think tulips are pretty... I surely reject Calvin’s!
For God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
The end of the thought process of Calvinism is that God created evil. I have a lot of friends that are Calvinist but I have never met one that could stomach following the logic to the end. I think the idea of God creating evil is easily debunked when you understand what the words translated to good and evil are in the Hebrew and the thought behind them. The word used for "Good" in Hebrew has the idea of something being where it is supposed to be doing what it is supposed to be doing. It is in order. In the creation story when God says something is good that is what he is saying. It is fulfilling its purpose. Evil on the other hand in Hebrew carries the idea of rebellion. Evil is something acting outside of its intended purpose in rebellion to God. That is exactly what Satan did. He broke from the purpose he was intended (Praise/Worship Leader) To peruse his own. God did not make him this way. God merely gave him autonomy. He was perfect until iniquity was found in him.
The idea of God creating evil is in my opinion falling into a trap. The Jews have a teaching on mingling and how God hates it. Hince rules in Leviticus about mixing garment types and such. The reason they say God hates mingling is because it is what Satan does. Every good lie has a measure of truth mingled in it. Its how Satan decided Adam and Eve. Mingling of truth and Lie. The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil was a mingling and God hates mingling. The parable of the man who sowed his field and the enemy came at night while men slept and sewed tares is often used to describe what happened in the garden of Eden. Man was to "Keep" the garden which in Hebrew means he was too guard it. But what would you guard a garden from in paradise? Mingling is so bad in Jewish thought that they teach in the Bible if someone heads west it is a bad thing because If you go towards the setting of the sun you are going towards the mingling of light and darkness. It is also the reason God called us to be set apart/ separate from the World (Holy/Sanctified) as to not mix light and darkness. I could go on but I have to go to work.
The idea of God creating evil is in my opinion falling into a trap. The Jews have a teaching on mingling and how God hates it. Hince rules in Leviticus about mixing garment types and such. The reason they say God hates mingling is because it is what Satan does. Every good lie has a measure of truth mingled in it. Its how Satan decided Adam and Eve. Mingling of truth and Lie. The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil was a mingling and God hates mingling. The parable of the man who sowed his field and the enemy came at night while men slept and sewed tares is often used to describe what happened in the garden of Eden. Man was to "Keep" the garden which in Hebrew means he was too guard it. But what would you guard a garden from in paradise? Mingling is so bad in Jewish thought that they teach in the Bible if someone heads west it is a bad thing because If you go towards the setting of the sun you are going towards the mingling of light and darkness. It is also the reason God called us to be set apart/ separate from the World (Holy/Sanctified) as to not mix light and darkness. I could go on but I have to go to work.
And yet we’re also instructed that he created all things. Without him was not anything made that was made.
This is true. God created all things.
Dooooood!!!! @Soldier's Psalm layin the Truth down thick bruh 
... bustin out some Hebrew and such ...I like this guy. We can be GOOD friends!
#GodofGood
#GodofOrder
... bustin out some Hebrew and such ...I like this guy. We can be GOOD friends! #GodofGood
#GodofOrder
But was either evil or darkness made?
Or are they simply the default position?
Is evil a thing? Or, the absence of a thing (good/order)?
"Lo, this only have I found, that God has made man upright; but they have sought out many devices."
-Solomon
"You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you."
-Ezekiel
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man"
-James
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
-Also James
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
- Jesus
My belief is that these testimonies point to the truth that God is not the originator of evil.
If it is a question of how men became evil - Solomon said men did that themselves.
If it is about how the devil was created - It was good and perfect
If it is a question of if God changed men or angels from good to evil- James says He wouldn't do that
James also says if it's good and perfect: It's from God, and God doesn't do things that aren't good and perfect.
But when speaking of lies and murders, Jesus places the blame squarely on Satan: he is the father of lies. He invented and originated the practice of the lying.
This isn't some crazy dualism. If I invent and create a clock, and my son breaks that clock:
Well then I'm the father (originator) of a clock and my son is the father (originator) of breaking stuff.
But originating the practice of breaking stuff isn't the same as creation. He didn't create a broken clock. He took a perfect clock and marred it.
Aside from that, I have no opinion about free will or predestination. My suspicion is that neither one of those works like we think it does.
-Solomon
"You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you."
-Ezekiel
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man"
-James
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
-Also James
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
- Jesus
My belief is that these testimonies point to the truth that God is not the originator of evil.
If it is a question of how men became evil - Solomon said men did that themselves.
If it is about how the devil was created - It was good and perfect
If it is a question of if God changed men or angels from good to evil- James says He wouldn't do that
James also says if it's good and perfect: It's from God, and God doesn't do things that aren't good and perfect.
But when speaking of lies and murders, Jesus places the blame squarely on Satan: he is the father of lies. He invented and originated the practice of the lying.
This isn't some crazy dualism. If I invent and create a clock, and my son breaks that clock:
Well then I'm the father (originator) of a clock and my son is the father (originator) of breaking stuff.
But originating the practice of breaking stuff isn't the same as creation. He didn't create a broken clock. He took a perfect clock and marred it.
Aside from that, I have no opinion about free will or predestination. My suspicion is that neither one of those works like we think it does.
This is fascinating while I do hold to the understanding that evil and darkness are not things in and of themselves but the absence of good and light I had not really thought of them as default states. It has got me thinking because if God stops uplifting and sustaining His creation it would make sense that without God the creation would return to its default state darkness and void. Not because darkness and void exist but because light and creation would cease to exist. That's really thought provoking.
Which is why I find this topic so dreary. I've had enough debating with calvinists to last a lifetime.
Thank you @FollowingHim and @Verifyveritas76 for helping me resurrect my account. I feel a kind of kinship to Lazarus now. Hopefully my posts won't make you regret giving me new life on the forum. It's probably good for everyone that my time to post is limited.
I mean no disrespect to anyone that holds a different view, but I have learned that not all things are as they first appear. We all tend to interpret things with the knowledge we have, and none of us have perfect knowledge.
I believe in the God that created all things and has revealed Himself through the ages. There is a difference between evil that is moral corruption and the evil that God creates. God does create "evil" (Is 45:7) the Hebrew word Ra that means all kinds of sorrow and calamity. These are the promised curses of Deut. 28 and are in response to man's "evil" which is moral corruption. God said He would do these things to His people. If you read Deut 28 you can see that this evil is purposed to either turn man back to God, or destroy those who choose to oppose the creator God and His plan.
God did create man perfect and called it good, even though man was created with human nature including the lusts of the flesh. Man was perfect, he had not yet sinned. Christ being the second Adam was also created perfect, with the same ability to sin, but overcame temptation. Christ and Adam were created with the same human nature including the lusts of the flesh. My understanding is that the lusts of the flesh is our/THE adversary. When you resist the adversary he flees from you, when you give in to the adversary man creates evil. Matthew 15:18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. v.19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Though God made us in this manner He did not create evil, but rather gave man a will and the ability to oppose Him. Man's sin nature was no surprise to God, He was not blindsided. He is the author and finisher of our faith and has declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Paul says that the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope. (Rom. 8:20) The plan of salvation is the hope of the ages, and existed before creation.
I challenge anyone to show where "satan" fell. It has always been man falling, being humbled, eating grass like the ox, repenting and returning to his creator.
Revelation is probably a subject for another thread, but the beginning of the book says that the events recorded must shortly come to pass, not that they happened before the sin in the garden of Eden. I believe that the events of John's vision had not yet happened when he wrote it, and are still unfolding today.
I appreciate the logic of what you wrote in the other thread, but I understand bowing out too. It can be too much like beating your head against a wall, or trying to convince a modern pastor that polygyny is moral.
I mean no disrespect to anyone that holds a different view, but I have learned that not all things are as they first appear. We all tend to interpret things with the knowledge we have, and none of us have perfect knowledge.
I believe in the God that created all things and has revealed Himself through the ages. There is a difference between evil that is moral corruption and the evil that God creates. God does create "evil" (Is 45:7) the Hebrew word Ra that means all kinds of sorrow and calamity. These are the promised curses of Deut. 28 and are in response to man's "evil" which is moral corruption. God said He would do these things to His people. If you read Deut 28 you can see that this evil is purposed to either turn man back to God, or destroy those who choose to oppose the creator God and His plan.
God did create man perfect and called it good, even though man was created with human nature including the lusts of the flesh. Man was perfect, he had not yet sinned. Christ being the second Adam was also created perfect, with the same ability to sin, but overcame temptation. Christ and Adam were created with the same human nature including the lusts of the flesh. My understanding is that the lusts of the flesh is our/THE adversary. When you resist the adversary he flees from you, when you give in to the adversary man creates evil. Matthew 15:18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. v.19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Though God made us in this manner He did not create evil, but rather gave man a will and the ability to oppose Him. Man's sin nature was no surprise to God, He was not blindsided. He is the author and finisher of our faith and has declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Paul says that the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope. (Rom. 8:20) The plan of salvation is the hope of the ages, and existed before creation.
I challenge anyone to show where "satan" fell. It has always been man falling, being humbled, eating grass like the ox, repenting and returning to his creator.
Revelation is probably a subject for another thread, but the beginning of the book says that the events recorded must shortly come to pass, not that they happened before the sin in the garden of Eden. I believe that the events of John's vision had not yet happened when he wrote it, and are still unfolding today.
Luke 10:18
And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."
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The first verse that came to my mind