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Is it proper to correct another mans wife/family?

andrew said:
@Pacman, you're not off base. It's good to have a little humility approaching new languages, and to realize you'll inevitably go through the 'tyro' phase in which you think you know a lot more than you do, and it's good to be patient and just keep studying and learning.

That said, my points didn't really depend on any nuanced understanding of Greek vocabulary. Studying other English translations will open your mind to the general idea that unless you were born a native Greek speaker 2000 years ago, we're all just doing the best we can with the tools we have, and that's good for humility, too.

My suggestion (looks like it's a little out of sync with some of the other advice you've received, but that's okay) is that you begin by focusing more on comparative study with different English translations. Find a good printed parallel bible, or use one of the many suggested computer bible programs (I prefer e-sword to online resources, but do your own evaluation) to compare different translations, including at least the AV, a modern translation, and a 'literal' translation, and let that drive the 'why' questions (why did this translation use this word and that translation used that word? what difference (if any) does it make?), and let the why questions drive your (limited) Greek study.

What you'll end up with is a good feel for what is the 'main and plain' in scripture (the stuff the translators pretty much agree on, or where the minute differences don't matter) and what is 'the weeds', the different positions driven by different assumptions, points of view, and academic issues, the arguing over which may or may not be the best use of your time.

Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
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True for most stuff, with some exceptions of some anti-torah bias I've seen across most translations like parts in Revelation which translate Greek "the commandments" as "righteousness" and some possible anti-polygamy bias we've discussed here at BF. That's a narrow focus though that most won't be affected by. That said @Pacman English speakers are super lucky to have so many tools accessible in our language for bible study (parallel bibles and such Andrew mentioned).

I think I like your "church English" classification for the King James flavor :)

@Pacman if you have an interest for the biblical languages, focus on Hebrew, that's what most revelation came down in anyway and it's mighty powerful in the psalms and quite a bit easier to break into than Greek. Also if you ever decide to go Greek the New Testament Greek is "Hebrew mangled" anyway so you'll be glad to have the Hebrew foundation under the hood.

Regarding tools, I gotta mention Bible works and Logos again (I know I did in another thread somewhere). For anyone who is willing to invest in their bible study those programs kick the crap out of any free tools out there. Bibleworks 10, recently closed shop but on their message boards there's a pastor who bought several copies selling them at cost. I think it's like $200 which is CRAZY for the tools included in that software (it was closer to $500 just a few months ago).

Asforme&myhouse said:
Has anyone here done much research on the two different bibles that have been translated into english? Essentially the KJV, the Bishop’s Bible, and the Geneva Bible are translations of the Received Text and all other translations are from Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus.
Edit: just realized the title of the thread, feel free to move this post to a more appropriate place if need be.
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Yes, this is why the only modern big shot Greek scholar behind the Majority text (King Jimmy base) is Robinson.
The uber-majority (yeah they are uber drivers :p ) of Greek scholars from all denominations fall in behind Sinaiticus and Vaticanus​
 
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IshChayil said:
True for most stuff, with some exceptions of some anti-torah bias I've seen across most translations like parts in Revelation which translate Greek "the commandments" as "righteousness" and some possible anti-polygamy bias we've discussed here at BF. That's a narrow focus though that most won't be affected by. That said @Pacman English speakers are super lucky to have so many tools accessible in our language for bible study (parallel bibles and such Andrew mentioned).

I think I like your "church English" classification for the King James flavor :)

@Pacman if you have an interest for the biblical languages, focus on Hebrew, that's what most revelation came down in anyway and it's mighty powerful in the psalms and quite a bit easier to break into than Greek. Also if you ever decide to go Greek the New Testament Greek is "Hebrew mangled" anyway so you'll be glad to have the Hebrew foundation under the hood.

Regarding tools, I gotta mention Bible works and Logos again (I know I did in another thread somewhere). For anyone who is willing to invest in their bible study those programs kick the crap out of any free tools out there. Bibleworks 10, recently closed shop but on their message boards there's a pastor who bought several copies selling them at cost. I think it's like $200 which is CRAZY for the tools included in that software (it was closer to $500 just a few months ago).


Yes, this is why the only modern big shot Greek scholar behind the Majority text (King Jimmy base) is Robinson.
The uber-majority (yeah they are uber drivers :p ) of Greek scholars from all denominations fall in behind Sinaiticus and Vaticanus​
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I have to say Ish, it bothers me greatly when you use the phrase King Jimmy to describe the KJV. I get that you have qualms with it but it really feels like your trivializing and belittling something that should be treated with seriousness and sobriety.
 
ZecAustin said:
I have to say Ish, it bothers me greatly when you use the phrase King Jimmy to describe the KJV. I get that you have qualms with it but it really feels like your trivializing and belittling something that should be treated with seriousness and sobriety.
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ב"ה
Shalom brother Zec, I have qualms with all translations, have you noticed my signature on posts?
That said, growing up in the bible belt that's how people often called the KJV including the pastor at the non-denominational church I attended who read from it all the time and the Baptist preacher at the church I attended before that. It's not pagans who lovingly called it "King Jimmy" it's those who loved and adored it (myself included).

I heard many visiting evangelists call it "King Jimmy"; I remember one big Baptist preacher telling girls in a sermon to "put the bible between you and the boy in his car on a date, he'll think twice with O'l King Jimmy sitting between you". I'm sure that preacher wasn't disrespecting the KJV.

I've still got my 30+ year old Thompson chain reference genuine leather King James sitting on my bookshelf; on the top shelf with the other bibles. It's accompanied me around the world even though I don't read it any more it's got a spot in my heart.

You are the only person in my entire life who has ever expressed any kind of offense from it being referred to as "King Jimmy" including a Bishop I met with last year who wanted to discuss differences between KJV (his fav.) and modern translations. I try to use a certain bit of levity in my posts as my personality comes through and that phrase just fits some times.

Now I just pulled my 30 year old Leather Thompson chain ref. (I wanted to say "King Jimmy" but am refraining) off the shelf and was surprised to find inside mint condition, Russian and Ukrainian currency in their old form (soon after collapse of USSR) which they don't make any more! That bible has really travelled with me!

If, after my explanation you still need me to change how I talk hit reply and tell me so and I'll do my best (though a late night post and decades of habit may let an occasional "King Jimmy" slip by me). I'm hoping my explanation, its top shelf spot in my library, and this photo will alleviate your concerns about any lack of sobriety regarding any bible on my part. shalom brother

See the pic:
myKJV.jpg
 
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It just seems like throwing shade is all. Do whatever you're comfortable with it just jangles me a little bit.
 
ZecAustin said:
It just seems like throwing shade is all. Do whatever you're comfortable with it just jangles me a little bit.
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I had to google "throwing shade" ( subtle, sneering expression of contempt for or disgust with someone) and I never heard of "jangling" someone; would that make me Mr. Bo-jangles?

Anyway, you have my word I mean no disrespect to a translation which has aided millions in their faith over the centuries.
I reread my post and when I wrote that I would never recommend it to a student of mine unless they had it in parallel, I should have added "a student who is a new believer and not familiar with that older style of church English". For anyone who grew up with it and has already learned how to understand it I wouldn't have the same qualms recommending it as they would already be "fluent" in church English. For newbies, I'd rather hand them a modern English translation with no learning curve, and take the extra time it takes to understand what words changed in KJV and use that time to have them learn other things (like Hebrew, or online tools, etc). I'm fairly confident that the time it takes a new believer to come up to full speed with all the changed vocabulary and language issues in KJV they could have learned ALL the basic Biblical Hebrew grammar and a ton of Hebrew vocabulary. Hope this explains more the method for my madness.

Sorry if I came across as flippant regarding KJV; not my intention.
shalom
 
IshChayil said:
I had to google "throwing shade" ( subtle, sneering expression of contempt for or disgust with someone) and I never heard of "jangling" someone; would that make me Mr. Bo-jangles?

Anyway, you have my word I mean no disrespect to a translation which has aided millions in their faith over the centuries.
I reread my post and when I wrote that I would never recommend it to a student of mine unless they had it in parallel, I should have added "a student who is a new believer and not familiar with that older style of church English". For anyone who grew up with it and has already learned how to understand it I wouldn't have the same qualms recommending it as they would already be "fluent" in church English. For newbies, I'd rather hand them a modern English translation with no learning curve, and take the extra time it takes to understand what words changed in KJV and use that time to have them learn other things (like Hebrew, or online tools, etc). I'm fairly confident that the time it takes a new believer to come up to full speed with all the changed vocabulary and language issues in KJV they could have learned ALL the basic Biblical Hebrew grammar and a ton of Hebrew vocabulary. Hope this explains more the method for my madness.

Sorry if I came across as flippant regarding KJV; not my intention.
shalom
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Well we all know I can be a little high strung. It's certainly possible I was being oversensitive.
 
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