We all know what it says in Isaiah 4:1, but I need some thoughts on "to take away our reproach". :?
Thank you
Dairyfarmer
Thank you
Dairyfarmer
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ISAIAH 4:1
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Anonymous
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Childlessness. The reproach in the OT was when a woman was unable to bear children. It is the sole function that women alone are made for. Essentially, they needed a husband to allow them to have children. Notice the three things the husband was minimally expected to provide to his wife:Dairyfarmer said:
Ex. 21:10: "If he takes another wife, her food, her covering, and her marriage rights are not to be diminished."
Now look at Isaiah 4:1: "And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, “We shall eat our own food and wear our own clothes; only let us be called by your name, to take away our reproach.”
These women aren't interested in food or clothing. What they want is their "marital rights" that come with marriage, for the purpose of having children. Check the OT references to see when and where the word for reproach is used for confirmation.
Love in Him,
David
rusty_armor
New Member
Dairyfarmer said:
You would have to accept a couple of things to worry about this particular passage.
1. You would be a Jewish woman living in Israel
2. You were childless
The reproach is them being childless . . .
Later on, in verse 4 he says: "The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire."
So whether he means J'salem or he means women, he also says that he is the one to cleanse them
Several people in the poly circle point to this passage to defend the practice of polygyny, but I don't think this particular passage supports the practice. It is more a statement of fact: seven women will take hold of one man because 86% of the males in the land are outright killed.
I am of the opinion that this event occurs in Israel prior to the "Day of the L-ord". Anyone who thinks that the days leading up to that return are joyous ones are going to be disappointed. Though I am not sure what role the US plays in this scenario, I hope to not be here either when all that happens.
I have rolled this thread back (way back). Numerous persons let us know they were offended by some of the "discussions" that had been added here. Look, these are public forums, where all the world can come and see what those "crazy Christian polygamists" are up to. We want to be a light to the Truth for them, we want to be an encouragement to each other. We do not want to be about bringing division or serious offense. There are plenty of places online where you can discuss these other things - take it there, please! The forums are growing quickly, we will need some more moderation help - in the meantime, please ask yourself if what you are posting is going to be edifying or helpful to anyone. If not, just please don't. I'm sure there's some other forums in need of moderation, but my time is very limited right now.
If you want to discuss Isaiah 4:1 here, go ahead - just keep it on topic please.
If you want to discuss Isaiah 4:1 here, go ahead - just keep it on topic please.
rusty_armor
New Member
Nathan7 said:
You are right. My apologies. I lost focus.
I am here to work out my own tribulations in my poly family, not to debate religion. In the future I will strive to not see every replacionist statement as a direct assault on my religion nor my people! Or at least ignore it . . .
~ rusty
Dairyfarmer said:
Hello,
1. I see this as referring specifically to having children:
Gen 30:22-23 And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb. And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach:
2. I do not see this as applying to anything in the future. The most natural reading of this text, looking at it from the context principle, leads me to see this as referring to the slaughter of the men when the Babylonians invade the Southeran Kingdom in 586BC. This was a specific prophetic warning against Judah, using the Northern Kingdom as an example.
I posted on Isaiah 4:1 on a different thread. Plural does not need this verse to support it Biblically. If it is just for the Jewish nation in the future that is fine. However, it does support that the lifestyle is a valid and pure option. This is what I wrote.
In the verse you mentioned (Isaiah 4:1), the context is very important and chapter three speaks of why there are a shortage of men (sword and war) and many female oriented problems. These problems seem to produce the reproach that is usually viewed as being barren or single. There is conflict of thought as to when all this happens (varied opinions of eschatology). My opinion on the “seven” is that it is just referring to the plurality of the action. (one or two or a few women would seem to be ok doing this even before the number of seven women are reached).
The force of the scripture is the desperation of the women as a motivation and the fact that they are doing it (take hold—Hebrew--- chazaq.) as a positive action. It can be translated as binding him or sustaining him or in other ways. But it is strong action toward the man. It will happen.
But at the moment it is not happening. If one wants to bring it closer to today then the verse works toward plural as the action and choice is by the women and not all about the man. Today’s society objects to a man having or taking hold of any wives, but if women want to live that way then it is their choice and nothing to condemn the man for. That is actually the only approach to plural that might work in the modern world anyway. But that is just an attempt at putting the verse into our day.
In the verse you mentioned (Isaiah 4:1), the context is very important and chapter three speaks of why there are a shortage of men (sword and war) and many female oriented problems. These problems seem to produce the reproach that is usually viewed as being barren or single. There is conflict of thought as to when all this happens (varied opinions of eschatology). My opinion on the “seven” is that it is just referring to the plurality of the action. (one or two or a few women would seem to be ok doing this even before the number of seven women are reached).
The force of the scripture is the desperation of the women as a motivation and the fact that they are doing it (take hold—Hebrew--- chazaq.) as a positive action. It can be translated as binding him or sustaining him or in other ways. But it is strong action toward the man. It will happen.
But at the moment it is not happening. If one wants to bring it closer to today then the verse works toward plural as the action and choice is by the women and not all about the man. Today’s society objects to a man having or taking hold of any wives, but if women want to live that way then it is their choice and nothing to condemn the man for. That is actually the only approach to plural that might work in the modern world anyway. But that is just an attempt at putting the verse into our day.
A
Anonymous
Guest
The number seven in Bible denotes completeness or perfection. This number was not used bt coincidence.
Marichu said:
This number is certainly symbolic in this context. I don't see how anyone can suggest that each man being referred to is going to have exactly seven women pursuing him. This simply means that there will be so many women available after the Babylonian Invasion of Judah that it will "seem" like there are seven women pursuing each man. left. In other words, "seven" is being used as a hyperbolic prophetic warning to the Southern Kingdom that when the Babylonians invade Judah that so many men are going to be slaughtered that most women will be left without husbands or potential husbands.
Agreed, Pastor Randy.
But I think the thing that is interesting about the prophecy, for those of us who understand what God says about marriage, is the reference to Exodus 21:10, and the fact that women who follow God at that time are so anxious for covering.
Most important, however, is what it says to those who accept the "polygyny is not God's preferred plan" distortion. Their answer begins in Isaiah 4:2!
But I think the thing that is interesting about the prophecy, for those of us who understand what God says about marriage, is the reference to Exodus 21:10, and the fact that women who follow God at that time are so anxious for covering.
Most important, however, is what it says to those who accept the "polygyny is not God's preferred plan" distortion. Their answer begins in Isaiah 4:2!
But since seven has been described as a perfect number often, it could also be as Marichu refers as the preferred amount. And in this prophecy, it may be the number that is required to meet the needs of society at that time. I know that most couldn't provide for seven women easily, so seven would need to "eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel:"
I agree in that this passage, either past or future, speaks about the lack of men and the desire of women needing the protection of a man. By the taking of his name they receive the protection from others by stating that they belong to a man already. By them willing to provide for their own clothing, food, etc. it also goes to show that there are few men around who can work and provide for a large family much less any size family.
Haven't said a word on this board until now. ISAIAH 4 is one heavy prophecy. Some of you may already know my views. I'll leave it at that for now. It's 33 below outside and Hope just stepped in the door. She looks like she could use a hot cocoa.
Isaiah 4
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.
***
Personally, I don't see how it is possible that ISAIAH FOUR could have already taken place. I see us in a time where humanity is sort of teetering between the end of Chapter 3 and the beginning of Chapter four. Certainly verses 4, 5 and 6 have not yet occurred.
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.
***
Personally, I don't see how it is possible that ISAIAH FOUR could have already taken place. I see us in a time where humanity is sort of teetering between the end of Chapter 3 and the beginning of Chapter four. Certainly verses 4, 5 and 6 have not yet occurred.
I'm with you on that, EtE.
Most importantly, however, God has continuously demonstrated that there is indeed "nothing new under the sun". We make the same mistakes over and over, and He teaches the same lessons - because we are still 'stiff-necked'.
Multiple fulfillment is nothing new.
Blessings,
mark
Most importantly, however, God has continuously demonstrated that there is indeed "nothing new under the sun". We make the same mistakes over and over, and He teaches the same lessons - because we are still 'stiff-necked'.
Multiple fulfillment is nothing new.
Blessings,
mark
Isaiah chapter 4 refers to the ‘new thing’ that God is doing in the earth, (Isaiah 43:18-19). In one translation it says that we should look because He is already doing it. Seven women and one man is no coincidence. It is the number 8, which represents newness or new beginnings. It has not taken place yet. However, this web site and those who truly subscribe to godly polygyny are ‘already doing it’. This is what God meant in Isaiah 43. It is a ‘new thing’, since it will come into the Christian church at large. However it will, as some have already mentioned, NOT come voluntarily for most, but as a result of the great tribulation and the significant deaths of men across the globe. True, ‘perfected’ Christians will be spared, but many will be killed or put in prison during this soon coming event. There will be no pre-trib rapture as some have unfortunately believed. The great tribulation is designed for the Christian church, since they are lukewarm at best. It will separate the wheat from the chaff. The great tribulation and the events of Isaiah chapter 4 will take place so as to ‘force’ the issue on those children of God who stubbornly refuse to accept this truth. Reproach may refer mainly to childlessness, but it also represents the ‘shame’ of not having a proper spiritual covering.
The reason that there are seven righteous women for one righteous man is that God repays seven times over for coming against Him. In the beginning sin came into the world through one unrighteous woman and one unrighteous man. In the end sin will exit the world through seven righteous women for every righteous man, thus God’s revenge on the enemy will be multiplied. In other words, the end-time move of God is going to come primarily through women. To throw you a curve ball, the two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 who will put Babylon in its place, will be two dark-skinned women, (Zechariah chapters 4-6). If you want more understanding of these things, you can download and read my teachings on ‘Revelation Revealed’ and “The Real 666’ at the following site -
http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com/revelation_revealed.htm
Be blessed,
Dr. Ray
The reason that there are seven righteous women for one righteous man is that God repays seven times over for coming against Him. In the beginning sin came into the world through one unrighteous woman and one unrighteous man. In the end sin will exit the world through seven righteous women for every righteous man, thus God’s revenge on the enemy will be multiplied. In other words, the end-time move of God is going to come primarily through women. To throw you a curve ball, the two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 who will put Babylon in its place, will be two dark-skinned women, (Zechariah chapters 4-6). If you want more understanding of these things, you can download and read my teachings on ‘Revelation Revealed’ and “The Real 666’ at the following site -
http://www.perfectchristian.110mb.com/revelation_revealed.htm
Be blessed,
Dr. Ray
I like what Ray last had to say on this topic, and the "new thing" that God is doing, and note that there hasn't been much else said on Isaiah 4:1 since then. But over the weekend, I had a dream on a peripherally-related topic (mostly having to do with forgiveness and repentance) which resulted in a long discussion with my wife L.
Out of that came an understanding that we both agreed I should post here - largely because it had what I have come to know as "the ring of Truth" from Him. Some background is necessary first, however.
There is a long-time female friend of our family who was widowed a few years ago; both of my wives at one time or another have made some type of reference to whether I should consider another wife, and thus to her obvious situation as well.
(Here must follow an admission, without which understanding of this story might not be complete. And, apologies in advance, should any be offended. I could truthfully state to alI that I was not 'looking for' another wife. This was probably more of an excuse, however. While this woman is by all observation a fine Christian, who shares our Messianic understanding, she is also a chain smoker. Even though she is considerate around us, and I love her as a wonderful woman, I must admit that my own reaction to the addiction and smell is such that I simply could not conceive of a one-flesh relationship.)
Lately there has been another, and far more grave, issue. Things that B revealed in claims that form part of the 'complaint' used by the prosecutor to justify my "felony email harassment" persecution indicate that this woman may have (along with B's sister in a primary role, and to a lesser extent, others of her family) taken an active part in convincing her to reject our marriage Covenant. While I have come to terms with forgiveness in an "intellectual" sense, I continue to pray about forgiveness "from my heart", and am thankful that God has given me much guidance there.
The discussion that I had with L following my dream and subsequent prayers Sunday morning took a different turn yet. I have long known that my wife B and this woman shared similar elements of abuse in their past (and although I have prayed with the latter, I do not know the details of her story). Likewise, it has been clear to me for some time that they shared similar aspects of spiritual torment; I came to recognize that the demonic force that ultimately drove B from my presence was a "familiar spirit" because I saw it in this friend as well.
But I have known this for some time. What I saw yesterday was another issue entirely. The questions that I asked myself, and God, were new to me:
Had God directed me to consider this woman as a wife at some point? Was I in rebellion? Was I just being lazy?
There is no question that dealing with B's spiritual attacks were a "handfull" - and that while I had seen some true miracles of healing, that "work in progress" can only be described honestly at this point - so far - as having fallen short. I love her, and continue to cover her in prayer, and count on God for her delivery and healing. But I wasn't ready to fight such a battle on a second front.
(And others here - myself included - might well objectively counsel a man to be "very cautious" in considering any such marriage!)
Nevertheless, the question remained. If God had actually asked me to consider such a marriage, and I had not listened - I had something to repent for.
As I discussed this with L, and even as I write it now, I am by no means certain that He made such a request. But I do think I was to consider the ramifications -- because of other things He made clear to me that morning. But I also now know what He showed both of us during that discussion.
I have no doubt that the standard interpretation of the Hebrew in Isaiah 4:1 is correct:
to "take away my reproach" generally refers to barrenness, and would imply that those seven women may be seeking the chance to bear children. But there is an additional level of Truth as well - and one which, it seems to me, is so clearly apropos for post-Christian Amerika:
"My reproach" is the spirit of Jezebel. To "take away my reproach" is to deliver a generation of women from the curse that plagues a pagan, anti-patriarchal world. That is the promise of the glorious days which follow.
Blessings in Him,
Mark
Mark C said:
I am not the type of person to push my thoughts on another, but reproach is used throught out the bible. It means disgrace. This is a big disgrace for the women of our times. This is what I thought all along.
Thank you God and thank you Mark.
Dairyfarmer