Jeremiah chapter 7

[Joleneakamama]

Also, this has definitely not occurred yet. Multiple reasons why - the northern kingdom (the other stick) is missing from the nation state of Israel -

So you believe YHWH has regathered just Judah back to that land, while they are still denying Yeshua? Didn't He say He would do that AFTER they repented and turned back to Him? And doesn't it say NO MAN cometh to The Father but by the Son?

plus they have no peace (unwalled villages does not describe the current nation state of Israel)

But it does describe us.

nor do they have a King. But it's something that occurs in the last years (which many believe we're in):

Christians have not been without a King. We have acknowledged the King of Kings for two thousand years. One day He will be visibly King, now it is like when David had been annointed, but was not yet on the throne in that people in the know already submit to Him.

The big problem I have with your view (held by others too) is that it COMPLETELY DENIES the Israelite heritage of Christians.

Like this comment

yes, when the Bible says Israel, it means the Israel that's in Israel; the one with the same borders as ancient Israel, the same religion as ancient Israel, the same well-documented bloodlines as ancient Israel,

May I sugest that the THOUSANDS of Judah including the 12 disciples, along with the THOUSANDS from the scattered 12 tribes that FOLLOWED THE GOOD SHEPHERD, ARE HIS SHEEP! They ARE Israelites by blood too!
Did they stop being and producing descendants of Jacob/Israel, or did some people simply not keep up with the prophesied name change??
Ten years post crucifixion there were ARMIES in Europe under the cross.

Also, this has definitely not occurred yet. Multiple reasons why - the northern kingdom (the other stick) is missing from the nation state of Israel

Maybe you are working from the wrong assumption, judging based on your idea of how it should look.

Paul's ministry was primarily to those "lost sheep" in the nations. What he said was that the two houses were brought together under Yeshua. Romans 9 25-26 "As He sayeth in Hosea, (Osee) I will call them my people who were not my people and her beloved that was not beloved. And in the place it was said to them you are not my people, there they shall be called the children of the living God"

Who was Hosea writing about?

Or "Breaking down the wall of partition between us to make of twain one new man"

Sounds like the two sticks to me! Emnity between the two houses.

OR

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
Mark of the new covenant there.

Or Romans 11:25

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

When is the covenant? Are we still waiting for Him to take away those sins?


Yet the way you folks see it those Israelites all and their descendants became "non Jew- Gentiles" when they believed on Yeshua?!?

Isaiah 62:2 is one place that prophesied a change in name. A name change does not erase the bloodline!

So many see Jews as "His chosen people" "His sheep" and Christians are just "grafted in, non-Israelite gentiles"
....
....but He said MY SHEEP FOLLOW ME! So who believes and has taken the good news all over the world?

 

[Joleneakamama]

Pardon me, but what non-insulting context can this question have? Not asking sarcastically or rhetorically either. Think about it. It is essentially a foregone conclusion that anyone professing to be a Christian has read the entire Bible at some point in their lives, is it not?

I never meant to imply you had never read it, but meant to ask if you had read it before responding since it was the subject of the thread....and you didn't mention it at all.

can you truthfully say with a straight face you would not have found it just as insulting?

Absolutely I can. Most anyone that knows me here knows I am not easily offended.

 

[OttoM]

So you believe YHWH has regathered just Judah back to that land, while they are still denying Yeshua? Didn't He say He would do that AFTER they repented and turned back to Him? And doesn't it say NO MAN cometh to The Father but by the Son?

I don't believe the Most High has re-gathered anyone back into the land. He will in his own time, and according to his own word.

The current nation state of Israel was orchestrated by Lord Rothschild. There were Jews against it, because they believe they were in exile due to their sin; and only the Most High can bring them back into the promised land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Even today there are Jewish groups that are against the nation state of Israel - and believe the Jewish (southern kingdom) exile must continue until the coming of the Messiah:

Neturei Karta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

plus they have no peace (unwalled villages does not describe the current nation state of Israel)
But it does describe us.

Except that America is not the Holy Land. The return back to the Holy Land is mentioned throughout the Scripture. It's a covenant promise given to Abraham, and confirmed with Jacob:

Psalm 105:10
He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, and to the people of Israel as a never-ending covenant: 11“I will give you the land of Canaan as your special possession.”

OttoM said:
nor do they have a King. But it's something that occurs in the last years (which many believe we're in):
Christians have not been without a King. We have acknowledged the King of Kings for two thousand years. One day He will be visibly King, now it is like when David had been annointed, but was not yet on the throne in that people in the know already submit to Him.

The big problem I have with your view (held by others too) is that it COMPLETELY DENIES the Israelite heritage of Christians.

We have a Lawgiver, Judge, and King. However, one day he will rule on earth and every knee will bow. Not yet happened.

I don't deny the Israelite heritage of Christians. I believe the Christians from European descent are Israelites - specifically - from the Northern Kingdom. We are also in exile. America was nice in the beginning, but so was Egypt for Jospeh and those first few generations. Then things got worse over time after new leaders came into power. So I see similarities between Egypt and USA. Things in the states (and throughout the nations) are getting worse and worse. With more oppression - more taxes - less freedom - more suffering. Similar to Egypt before the first exodus. It was nice but then the suffering came. But afterwards came the exodus.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Psalm 105:10
He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, and to the people of Israel as a never-ending covenant: 11“I will give you the land of Canaan as your special possession.”

Then there is still my question.
How do others here see Jeremiah 7 impacting scripture interpretation or rather our understanding of the prophesies?

I don't believe the Most High has re-gathered anyone back into the land. He will in his own time, and according to his own word.

According to Genesis 49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shalll the gathering of the people be.

I don't deny the Israelite heritage of Christians. I believe the Christians from European descent are Israelites - specifically - from the Northern Kingdom.

So when was there ever segregation among Christians that would have kept Israel and Judah divided?
I truly believe what Paul was explaining in so many passages was the reunification of the two houses under Yeshua. One body. There is neither Jew nor Greek.
Paul quoted Hosea (Osee) 1:10. But he describes 1:11 as well.
10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Gathered to Shiloh/Yeshua.

So then almost 2000 years later (without segratation or a wall of partition between houses) we see over 40 million European Christians, following Yeshua, gathered out of the nations where they had gone, do this mass migration to new land, their OWN land, and it is not fulfilling prophesy?

13 original colonies. Blessed by YHWH with victory over the largest superpower the world had known. And then we became a blessed and prospered nation.....and then the people got lax about morality and allowed child sacrifice and other wrongs.

We are the daughter of Zion in Micah....imo

 

[Mark C]

It's not clear to me exactly what, if any, argument was reflected in the last two or three posts. (Four, since I started this - and that one helped. ) But I'll try to clarify what I see in Jeremiah 7 (and will talk about it today in the midrash; it is part of the haftorah reading for parsha "Tzav," in Leviticus.)

13 original colonies. Blessed by YHWH with victory over the largest superpower the world had known. And then we became a blessed and prospered nation.....and then the people got lax about morality and allowed child sacrifice and other wrongs.

Many of the Founders, likewise, saw their land and people as a 'new Israel.' Jefferson, Adams, and Ben Franklin were challenged to provide a design for a Great Seal, and all conceived variants of Moses, the 'parting of the Red Sea,' and giving of the commandments, as a potential motif. Because they saw that element of their own lives as a fulfillment of prophecy.

I am, personally, as expressed here on occasion too, a firm believer in "multiple [cyclical] fulfillment" of prophecy, and history, for that matter. We see, for example, cycles, supercycles, and Grand Supercycles in economics, and depressions, and even the rise and fall of societies.

Exiles have happened more than once. Ezra and Nehemiah's lives and prophecies followed a time of exile, and return. 'The Temple' has been destroyed twice. Some believe (I do NOT) that "all" was fulfilled in 70 AD.

But I contend that the Greater Exodus remains yet to occur. Some 'jews' (and many who may not be, depending on how people read Yahushua's observation) have returned to at least a part of 'the Land,' but not even remotely what constitutes that vision.

So, while I can understand why many of the Founders saw the settlement of THIS land as a 'type' of the Exodus, and in particular the escape from persecution under European 'churchianity' (which was by no means singular) -- I do not conclude that America is even remotely a fulfillment of that Greater Exodus I still believe is ahead.

I DO, however, see tremendous parallels in the warnings given to a once faithful wife, increasingly pagan, and ultimately "jonesin' fer judgment." We've been there, and much of what is described I'd consider undeniable.

 

[Mark C]

PS> This:

So when was there ever segregation among Christians that would have kept Israel and Judah divided?

We see it HERE, on BF. And even pointing out the specifics of how and why is likely to be censored. THAT speaks volumes.

I truly believe what Paul was explaining in so many passages was the reunification of the two houses under Yeshua. One body. There is neither Jew nor Greek.

I know of 'Christians' that would come to blows over Him NOT being called "Jesus." And whether or not that guy "did away with the Law."

Whereupon I note that the same fellow who wrote a letter to the Romans, Galatians, and Colossians also warned in II Corinthians 11:4 that some would come preaching "another jesus," that he/they specifically did NOT, and that people would be suckered in.

I contend that not only have we not been regathered to THE Land, but that neither has there been unification (no 'echad'-ness) in those who claim to follow Him. Which is actually another element reflected in YermeYahu/Jeremiah chapter 7.

 

[OttoM]

Then there is still my question.
How do others here see Jeremiah 7 impacting scripture interpretation or rather our understanding of the prophesies?

This is what you’re referring to:

Jeremiah 7:34
I will put an end to the happy singing and laughter in the streets of Jerusalem. The joyful voices of bridegrooms and brides will no longer be heard in the towns of Judah. The land will lie in complete desolation.

If they continued to rebel - the land would lie in desolation. So I agree - it was conditional - and exile was the result (they didn’t repent). But your error is that you’re not looking at the full picture. What do I mean by that? He said elsewhere - even though we don’t deserve it - he will still bring a remnant back - for his own name sake. Where will he bring them back? The land that has been turned desolate - the Holy Land. How do I know this? Because it’s mentioned by multiple prophets. It’s not America.

Ezekiel 36:22
Therefore, give the people of Israel this message from the LORD: I am bringing you back, but not because you deserve it. I am doing it to protect my holy name, on which you brought shame while you were scattered among the nations

24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Verse 34-35
The fields that used to lie empty and desolate in plain view of everyone will again be farmed. 35 And when I bring you back, people will say, ‘This former desolation is now like the Garden of Eden! The abandoned and ruined cities now have strong walls and are filled with people!’

 

[OttoM]

So when was there ever segregation among Christians that would have kept Israel and Judah divided?
I truly believe what Paul was explaining in so many passages was the reunification of the two houses under Yeshua. One body. There is neither Jew nor Greek.
Paul quoted Hosea (Osee) 1:10. But he describes 1:11 as well.

The Messiah will be the one the brings back the two houses - when he fulfills the prophetic feast day of Sukkot. Finally, ending the jealousy and rivalry between the two kingdoms.

The two houses are very much divided and at odds with one another. Just look at how the Northern Kingdom treated the Jews in Europe during the Middle Ages. Just look how the Northern Kingdom treats their own when they wish to keep Torah through faith in Yahushua (Jesus). Or how the Southern Kingdom (Jews) treat their own that keep Torah through faith in Yeshua. They are outcasts. So not only are the two houses divided among themselves, but also within their own houses. Division upon division:

Matthew 10:34-36
Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword. 35 ‘I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Your enemies will be right in your own household!’

This division will not last forever.

Also, what does it mean to be a “Christian?” A follower of Christ (Messiah). Okay - there are many Messiahs - including false Messiahs. Paul said - imitate me like I imitate the Risen Messiah. I would never know the path to righteousness without coming first - through faith - in Yahushua (Jesus).

 

[Mark C]

If they continued to rebel - the land would lie in desolation. So I agree - it was conditional - and exile was the result (they didn’t repent). But your error is that you’re not looking at the full picture...
...It’s not America.

Agreed, in part. That 'promised land' is not America.

The prophecy, however, in YermeYahu chapter 7 was clearly addressed to those of his day. (See the first three verses, and 'this place.')

But, in the sense that prophecy, like history, (apologies to S. Clemens, aka Mark Twain) may not repeat EXACTLY - but it rhymes - we see that now, I contend.

Read Jeremiah 7:8-10.

AmeriKa trusts in "lying words." Has for decades. Especially when the liars wear black robes, or white lab coats, or put their hands on a Bible. (Or a Koran, come to think of it, now.)

Some of the most striking, and damning, rhymes I just finished talking about in some detail in the Sabbath midrash I just finished live. They would offend those who think a 'holy-day' named after a pagan fertility goddess would not somehow offend Him:

"Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;

And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by My Name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?"

"Abominations" that are outlined in Ezekiel chapter 8 (and the "angel with the inkhorn" result in chapter 9) - things like verses 14, and 16. (Jer. 7:18, too.)

And this almost leaps off the page, IMHO, and still applies, whether we call "them" Americans, or Brits, or Aussies, or French, or Canadians, or ...

But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Yahuah Elokah, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

 

[OttoM]

Agreed, in part. That 'promised land' is not America.

The prophecy, however, in YermeYahu chapter 7 was clearly addressed to those of his day. (See the first three verses, and 'this place.')

I agree - Jeremiah 7 has been fulfilled with Judah’s exile to Babylon and the other places they were scattered.

The same message in Jeremiah 7 apples to us today - living in exile - and most won’t listen:

Isaiah 65:8-10

“But I will not destroy them all,” says the LORD. “For just as good grapes are found among a cluster of bad ones (and someone will say, ‘Don’t throw them all away—some of those grapes are good!’), so I will not destroy all Israel. For I still have true servants there. 9 I will preserve a remnant of the people of Israel and of Judah to possess my land. Those I choose will inherit it, and my servants will live there. 10 The plain of Sharon will again be filled with flocks for my people who have searched for me, and the valley of Achor will be a place to pasture herds.

So why only a remnant? He tells us exactly why:

Verse 12
For when I called, you did not answer. When I spoke, you did not listen. You deliberately sinned—before my very eyes— and chose to do what you know I despise.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Absolutely I can. Most anyone that knows me here knows I am not easily offended.

This I absolutely can attest to.