LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK OF HEBREWS

[Asforme&myhouse]

And @rockfox the reason the old covenant had problems is because man screwed it up, not because God failed (so no one misinterprets want you’re saying)

We know that God didn’t give the dietary laws to all people because God told Noah he could any thing that moves and is alive. That includes a lot of critters that aren’t kosher.

Genesis 9:3 KJV
[3] Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Pigs move and are alive. I’m not really a fan of pork, but if I don’t eat it I’m doing so for health reasons not because abstaining from it makes me more spiritual or holy.


Romans 14:14-23 KJV
[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. [20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. [21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. [23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

@PeteR, if your conviction is to not eat certain foods because of the Law, I do not condemn you, you must do that of which you are fully convinced is good. On the other hand, you cannot condemn anyone because of what they eat because Scripture is clear about the fact that no food makes someone spiritually unclean... it might make them physically sick, but it isn’t a spiritual matter.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a perfect, all powerful and all knowing God who made a flawed, imperfect covenant. And you can’t say that people screwed it up because people screw up the “New Covenant” as well.
What you all fail to see is that every Torah keeper here is completely fine with all of you staying at the Acts 15 zone, you still have to obey those old, flawed failures of sexual laws and you have your own dumbed down dietary laws and we’ll see you in heaven and you’ll be very sheepish.
What we want to wring from you is what @Asforme&myhouse almost alluded to, that Torah keeping is a legitimate expression of the faith. If you will just quit sneering at us and insulting God and His Word we’d leave to your one chapter of scripture and not challenge you with hard truths.

 

[PeteR]

Thomas Jefferson's Bible...

He only kept the parts he agreed with...

 

[Asforme&myhouse]

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a perfect, all powerful and all knowing God who made a flawed, imperfect covenant.

We’re not saying, oh God screwed up and had to fix it. If that is what you think we are saying, you are incorrect. The Law accomplished and is accomplishing exactly what it was designed to do, that is, to shut every mouth that tries to justify itself before God.

What you all fail to see is that every Torah keeper here is completely fine with all of you staying at the Acts 15 zone,

HOG WASH! (Sorry i mean cow wash) We are constantly sniped at with subtle and not so subtle comments about being antinomians and blasphemers. I’ve had some here try to talk me into being circumcised. It’s pretty much constant and most of the time we bite our tongues and just let it go.

By Acts 15, do you mean Romans, Ephesians, Hebrews (that one was specifically written to... wait for it... HEBREWS) Galatians etc...??

you still have to obey those old, flawed failures of sexual laws and you have your own dumbed down dietary laws and we’ll see you in heaven and you’ll be very sheepish.

Flawed? Dumbed down?? Are you calling God dumb? Because He’s the one who gave them! I literally just quoted from Torah where God gave those “dumbed down laws”.

If you will just quit sneering at us and insulting God and His Word we’d leave to your one chapter of scripture and not challenge you with hard truths.

We’re not sneering at you, we’re not insulting God or His Holy Word. If there was only one chapter of Scripture that I had to stay in to uphold what I’m saying, I’d be questioning myself.

Thomas Jefferson's Bible...

He only kept the parts he agreed with...

Like you?

 

[PeteR]

Like you?

I fully believe and understand Hebrews, Galatians, Romans and Acts 15. I/we've explained them in a way that does not violate other clear Scripture and in no way removes or undermines God's everlasting Law. Further, we have reminded you on multiple occasions that Paul is the only author of Scripture that comes with a warning label. Peter tells us in chapter three of his second epistle that Paul is hard to understand, yet he's the first place everybody wants to go to overturn the continued application of the Law. People even ignore Yeshua saying that not a single letter will fall from the Torah until heaven and earth pass away, then He says, if you want to be great in the kingdom, teach and do the Law. if you want to ne least, annul and teach others to annul... Was Paul teaching to uphold the Torah and do the commandments or not? I propose he was, but he is easily misunderstood in the way he sought to tease out the traditions not found in Torah.

Brother, we love you and others and we enjoy sharpening iron and challenging you and others. We desire righteousness and recognize that Scripture tells us what it looks like and what to do to be righteous. (Yes, we have faith in Messiah, this is not a salvation issue, it is an obedience, blessing, and reward issue.)

Act 21 ought to give you some things to think about re Paul and zeal for the Torah!

17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they (the elders) said to him, “You see, brother, how many (tens of) thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

This passage tells us some very important things:

• Tens of thousands (myriads) of Jews in Jerusalem believed in Yeshua and were zealous for the Torah.
• Same Jews had been given the FALSE impression that Paul was teaching Jews to forsake Moses and 'not keep the customs.'
  
• Paul kept Torah by taking a Nazarite vow and paying for four other men to do the same.
• Paul offered sacrifice in the Temple.
• Paul's vow is that he 'walk(s) orderly, keeping the Torah.'
• Gentiles have instructions, rooted in Torah, that the elders previously laid on new converts (Acts 15:20) with the xpectation that (Acts 15:21) they would learn Moses (Torah) in the synagogue, on Shabbat.​

So,

• All converts in Jerusalem were zealous for the Torah as were all of the disciples of Yeshua.
  
• if Paul was teaching against Torah, then he took a vow and offered sacrifice in the Temple falsely.
• if Paul was teaching against the Torah, then his multiple statements to the contrary further in Acts prove him a false teacher.
• if indeed Paul was telling the truth here, that he walked orderly, keeping the Torah,' then what do we do with the 'imitate me as I imitate Christ' statement?

Here's the problem: If Paul taught against Torah, then he was a total sham and liar willing to say and do whatever the situation required, a clear violation of the basic morality code that Christendom is willing to import from the Torah.

For me: It is much easier to believe that Peter was right, Paul is hard to understand and I need to use the Torah as my lens to understand Paul and not the other way around. Or, put another way, if Paul makes me set aside the Torah, I am misunderstanding Paul.

I remain zealous for the Torah and on Judgment Day will take my stand next to Moses, David, Peter, James, John and even Paul. (Paul will be the one in the neon green shirt that says, 'I did not say what you think I said.')

 

[The Revolting Man]

View attachment 1771

We’re not saying, oh God screwed up and had to fix it. If that is what you think we are saying, you are incorrect. The Law accomplished and is accomplishing exactly what it was designed to do, that is, to shut every mouth that tries to justify itself before God.



HOG WASH! (Sorry i mean cow wash) We are constantly sniped at with subtle and not so subtle comments about being antinomians and blasphemers. I’ve had some here try to talk me into being circumcised. It’s pretty much constant and most of the time we bite our tongues and just let it go.

By Acts 15, do you mean Romans, Ephesians, Hebrews (that one was specifically written to... wait for it... HEBREWS) Galatians etc...??



Flawed? Dumbed down?? Are you calling God dumb? Because He’s the one who gave them! I literally just quoted from Torah where God gave those “dumbed down laws”.



We’re not sneering at you, we’re not insulting God or His Holy Word. If there was only one chapter of Scripture that I had to stay in to uphold what I’m saying, I’d be questioning myself.




Like you?

It’s a bad sign when someone misses other’s sarcasm and then lays their own on so heavy. I am spoiling for a fight on this subject but I’m going to contain my vitriol for the thread I started. Come over there if you want to know why you’re wrong.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

You are redeemed from the curse, not from the law itself.

Example, if the judge forgives you for speeding, that redeems you from the curse, the ticket, against you. It does NOT nullify the law of speeding. you have to walk out of the courtroom as a free man that then obeys the speed limit. Else, the next time you are in front of the judge he will throw the book at you!

Romans 6:1 & 2 'Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?'

Romans 3:31 'Do we then nullify the Law though faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law!'

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This seems the be a peg point but how do we reconcile with the following?

Rom 14:23 . . . whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:10-29 . . . 12And the law is not of faith: . . .

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Why is there now neither Jew nor Greek?

Romans 11:18-23 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

They were broken off!

We are grafted into the root not the branches. The root is the example of faith and the seed of Abraham . . . seed not seeds; i.e. Christ!

Galatians 5:3-6 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


We are redeemed from the curse of the law not just once! We are commanded to forgive 70X7 God will forgive even more! (the honest heart) No I am free from the Law yet my righteousness is said to establish Law how is this so? As per your speeding example: It is not the speeding that is actually the moral transgression I am free to speed yet I do not engage in speeding (in a reckless manner ) because the Law of Love works no ill to my neighbor! I now establish law in that my actions promote the morality of the law out of love I do not reframe from murder because the law says so but rather because I am guided by love! If you still require the school master then you are not yet into, or have fallen from, Grace. Peace

 

[PeteR]

Rom 14:23 . . . whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:10-29 . . . 12And the law is not of faith: . . .

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Great! You took all three out of context to assemble this false point.

Romans 14 has nothing to do with keeping or not keeping the Law, it has to do with one's personal convictions on a personal matter... eat meat or not eat meat.

Galatians 3:12 also says, 'he who practices (the Law) shall live!!' Christianity historically flips this verse upside down to feed their eisegesis.

Galatians 3:28 is also misused because we obviously still have male and female. The narrow point being made is the equality of right to salvation, not an erasure of Jew or Greek.

My guess it your Bible doesn't even have a prophets section because you think Israel is done away with.. News flash, better figure that one out, and soon! It is the heart of understanding who the Kingdom is... Yeshua reigns over the house of Jacob, twelve tribes, regathered from the four corners.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

Great! You took all three out of context to assemble this false point.

Romans 14 has nothing to do with keeping or not keeping the Law, it has to do with one's personal convictions on a personal matter... eat meat or not eat meat.

Galatians 3:12 also says, 'he who practices (the Law) shall live!!' Christianity historically flips this verse upside down to feed their eisegesis.

Galatians 3:28 is also misused because we obviously still have male and female. The narrow point being made is the equality of right to salvation, not an erasure of Jew or Greek.

My guess it your Bible doesn't even have a prophets section because you think Israel is done away with.. News flash, better figure that one out, and soon! It is the heart of understanding who the Kingdom is... Yeshua reigns over the house of Jacob, twelve tribes, regathered from the four corners.

Romans 14 has nothing to do with keeping or not keeping the Law, it has to do with one's personal convictions on a personal matter... eat meat or not eat meat.

I thought what we ate was a matter of Law!

Galatians 3:12 also says, 'he who practices (the Law) shall live!!' Christianity historically flips this verse upside down to feed their eisegesis.​

All have sinned with or without Law. no one can be justified by the Law. even if you could keep it now that does not solve the past sin problem.
​

Galatians 3:28 is also misused because we obviously still have male and female. The narrow point being made is the equality of right to salvation, not an erasure of Jew or Greek.​

But it shows that there is no preference for male or female or Jew all must come through grace and faith not Jewish Law!

The branches were cut OFF!
Yes, they shall be restored!
Circumcision (i.e. keeping the Law or being born Jewish) now profits you nothing!
Jesus is the only way to heaven. being a Law keeper is not enough. The problem is not just sin it is also a shortage of glory! Glory is imparted by grace and faith. The flesh and blood of the future will never have the same glory as we!
After the first resurrection, Christ will make Israel (the flesh and blood nation the head of all nations and fulfil the great prophecies of their preeminence at that time.
The Law will be restored to the nation of Israel
We are now in a process of salvation by faith without The Law.
Salvation by faith and being led by the Spirit of God is not Amoral! (the New Testament is full of commands to not kill, hate, steal, lie, etc.! (What to eat or what day to worship is left to conscience.) I am glad you follow yours, you should be glad I also follow mine.
If I am repentant and trust Jesus' death as payment for my sin the Holy Spirit accepts may walk of faith as I have the light.
You believe you have special light and that is fine the problem is you believe this revelation of the Law is required for me, and really for everyone. Heaven will be a very limited place, with your understanding, most of Christianity for the past 2000 years can't get in. Even though I believe I have a calling of an Apostle (and have special light also) I am NOT so arrogant as to think that your salvation requires your acceptance of me ( you must accept Jesus and please Him and please the Father)
Prophecy is of no private interpretation. you are the one who forces scripture into a monolithic interpretation that most people reading the scripture reject as not the plain sense of the text.
The book of Acts is not necessarily an approval of everything the Church and the first Apostles did. It is an accurate record of what happened.
Paul 'took the vow" at the persuasion of the council. Not of his choosing!

Paul said: 11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Paul was over and over persecuted by the Jews because he did not conform. The attempt to appease them by 'taking his vow' did not work.

Acts 15
5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

James who did not believe until after the resurrection usurped authority of Peter and Paul made a very limited decree not asked for even by Peter or Paul but it was agreed to keep the peace. They should have listened to Peter Paul and Barnabas.

Acts 21
20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
27And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. 29(For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) 30And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut. 31And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

Notice this is chapter 21 and there was no expectation of the Gentiles other that of Acts 15.
James and the Apostles at Jerusalem were overrun by thousands of Jews who were 'zealous of the Law"
It seems they were somewhat afraid of Paul's teaching and reputation as being a reflection on them and the favor they had in the Temple. notice verse 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: Not what the Holy Spirit said! The plan failed Paul is arrested anyway and the Apostles found their influence or Paul's 'vow' was not enough to save
Paul or convince anyone that he was a Law keeper and teacher. It seems no one stepped up to defend Paul either!
verse 25 made no change in Gentile commands. No evidence of expectation of Law keeping by Gentiles, or going to hear Moses on the Sabbath.
Paul clearly teaches Law keeping was not even required for Jews anymore!
The Law is not for the body of Christ. It will return for the nation of Israel during the 1000 year reign of Christ!

If you (as you say you do) trust Jesus for your salvation then . . . follow your conscience and faith. You should allow others to do the same when Love and morality and the question of faith in Christ is not in jepordy.

Law keeping as a requirement becomes a strong temptation to rely on works for salvation. Please do not fall into that trap. Although I agree that works demonstrate faith the obedience of works is not to Law but to the Spirit!

Galatians 5
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 8
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Cap]

I am spoiling for a fight on this subject but I’m going to contain my vitriol for the thread I started. Come over there if you want to know why you’re wrong.

Why do you pretend to care about Jesus said? None of the things Jesus said before this matter to you, especially what He said about adultery and stoning? Why should he repeat it here when you didn’t listen the first time? Oh Slumber, to best me you’re willing to tear down all of Christianity?!?

... is Torah Keepers are trying to accomplish.

Even you freedom blessed gentile believers are not free from ....

Herein lies the great danger of you New Testament only types, you are missing half of the story at least.

Question: If Jesus/Yeshua is there, ruling Jacob (house of Israel and the house of Judah, previously defined and explained in the context of the preceding verses) and teaching Torah, even the 'statutes and the ordinances', forever, where will you be and what will you be doing?

Everyone who read this thread saw the sneering snark.

I actually saw the opposite.

It's time to put away this Burger King religion and you know what Burger King's motto is?? You want to have it your way..

Aaahhhhahahahahhahahahah! Why are you all so stone blind!

I love you brother, you cannot claim ignorance or excuse. You do not have time to play this game. !

@PeteR , this is for you. I love you bro. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


Since it is obvious to me that the gloves have been taken off and based on the the copies of the posts listed above that there is a difference in the two beliefs which is my opinion the core of why this will never be resolved. One side believes the other blind, which Paul goes into great detail to try to explain in the Book of Hebrews. His reference to Sarah and Hagar, the levitical and melchizedek priesthood, the old and new covenants, its all in there. The only people that say that Paul is hard to understand are those who don't want to acknowledge what is being said. It is clear as day to those who understand what Paul is saying. This is not a causal agree to disagree possibility. Somebody is wrong. Paul makes it very clear in Hebrews. I am not being sarcastic at all. This is about another gospel that is being preached.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The only people that say that Paul is hard to understand are those who don't want to acknowledge what is being said

Well them and the Apostle Peter but that doesn’t affect your point does it.

 

[Cap]

Well them and the Apostle Peter but that doesn’t affect your point does it.

The Christian journey is one that evolves over time. Interesting in II Peter, coming to the end of his journey, he never says anything about following the Law but growing in faith. AND to be careful about those who twist the old testament and misunderstand Paul.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The Christian journey is one that evolves over time. Interesting in II Peter, coming to the end of his journey, he never says anything about following the Law but growing in faith. AND to be careful about those who twist the old testament and misunderstand Paul.

He said that the writings of Paul were difficult to understand and dangerous for the simple, joining us who “only don’t want to acknowledge what is being said,”

 

[Cap]

He said that the writings of Paul were difficult to understand and dangerous for the simple, joining us who “only don’t want to acknowledge what is being said,”

Well the division is deep. One group is wrong and deceiving others. (I didn't say which one, nor am I implying, just a statement) The end result is, what fellowship do we have if we are being honest with ourselves?

 

[Gary Slaughenhaupt]

Well the division is deep. One group is wrong and deceiving others. (I didn't say which one, nor am I implying, just a statement) The end result is, what fellowship do we have if we are being honest with ourselves?

What fellowship indeed. I have been enjoying this thread and similar ones for the debate and how it helps me evaluate my own beliefs and read God's word since I want to strip away worldly influences from my walk with God. But it saddens me to see some of the same vehemence I am experiencing from my church pastors over the monogamy only doctrine , being expressed here. I am convinced that in most cases we should be giving a soft answer and a gentle rebuke to encourage each other.

 

[theQuestion]

Rather than tossing scriptures around, let's start with the first verses, (the letter to the Hebrew congregation)~

Heb 1:1- In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2- but in these last days He has spoken to us by a son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world.

God sent His son (not Himself or 'Themselves').
God APPOINTED him, and he had a hand in creating the Universe.

 

[theQuestion]

Heb 1:3- He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of His nature, upholding the universe by His word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4- having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs.

Jesus reflects the glory of GOD (not 'Himself' , 'Themselves').
Jesus is dependent on the power God has- his holy breath (spirit).
Jesus BECAME superior, not HAD it!
Jesus, rising above the others- due to his God- meant he was an angel.

 

[theQuestion]

I KNOW the trinitarian nature will be SCREAMING- but that's what it says!

 

[theQuestion]

Heb 1:5- For to what angel did God ever say,

“Thou art my son, today I have begotten thee”?

Or again,

“I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?

 

[theQuestion]

Heb 1:6- And again, when He brings the first-born into the world, He says, “Let all God’s angels worship him."

Now, is God telling the angels to worship another GOD?
Never may that be the case!
The problem is few even don't know the words they bander about- like WORSHIP!

Worship is showing the highest honor, and God is telling then to show the highest honor to him.
(Which contradicts him being God, returning to heaven to join the 'Other Two')