LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK OF HEBREWS

[Jim an Apostle]

TheTorah still stands. Forever. It is the measure of righteousness.

Philippians 3
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Jim an Apostle]

Galatians 2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Pacman]

the old religious system established by Moses.

This is false the system was not established by Moses but you already knew that.

 

[Pacman]

Which now gets to which High Priest are we to follow, the Levitical or the Melchizedek,

When the Levitial is functioning correctly there is little difference between the two.

Also we do not "follow" the high priest that's actually never commanded we follow Yeshua but that is in his role as Messiah, prophet, master and king not in his role as High Priest. We are never commanded to follow the High Priest that I am aware of. The priesthood was not an authority role.

 

[PeteR]

@Jim an Apostle justification has always been by faith, but obedience is still required. Why is this so hard to understand?

No law = lawlessness. It is the son of perdition that is lawless.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

What does the phrase “kainos diatheke” in verse 8, mean?

Yep! No silly Italics there.

Not at all. Read the whole new covenant. We are clearly given the signs of its fulfillment. Those conditions have not been met.

Like the death of a mediator? The testament or covenant goes into place after the death of its mediator. You can say that conditions haven’t been met, but methinks thats a biased examination.

And if we’re not under the Christ covenant, every one of us are in big trouble.

The author cites the new covenant from Jeremiah 31. Doesn't prove the covenant was the problem but the people who rebelled. And, hello, the renewal is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah! Not...anybody else.

Thats only cause renew means you had it before. Under the Christ covenant, Gentiles are allowed into his family too.

Recall, 8:4 says that the Levitical priesthood was still operating lawfully.

Now those are some italics. Your interpretation makes it seem like the author was legitimizing their sacrifices, when the Greek is pretty clear that he was referring just to a Levitical sacrifice performed according to Torah (as opposed to a pagan sacrifice)

Contrary to 1800 years of errant Christian doctrine, the New (technically renewed) Covenant is not yet in place. We see shadows and pieces, but it is not in place yet. Not possible. Pieces aren't all there yet. Period.

Not according to everybody first and second century. Without exception.

NO!

Priesthood is likely the correct fit!!

I was going from memory. There is another option there, maybe high priest?.. there are two contextual options that make way more sense than 'covenant.'.. priest or priesthood being the best.

That's what the whole book is about, a better High Priest.

. . . . . Of a better covenant. Trying to gain a better High Priest without a Better Covenant to match is like putting an Indy500 driver in a jalopy.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

When the Levitial is functioning correctly there is little difference between the two.

Also we do not "follow" the high priest that's actually never commanded we follow Yeshua but that is in his role as Messiah, prophet, master and king not in his role as High Priest. We are never commanded to follow the High Priest that I am aware of. The priesthood was not an authority role.

There’s so much wrong with this . . . From Torah. And there’s massive difference between a Levitical and Melchizedek. A Levitical priesthood is exclusive with zero caveats. They cannot coexist

 

[The Revolting Man]

Think about it a minute longer . . . . . You’re asking that on a pro poly site . . . . .

The existence of a covenant with 2 ladies does not mean that there’s no more covenants to be had or made with others.

One wife does not join another wife’s house or covenant to be added to the family. She joins his family thru her own covenant with Him.

While I don’t necessarily agree that this is a valid point in the current debate, I must say “Well some sir, expertly parried.”

 

[PeteR]

Thats only cause renew means you had it before. Under the Christ covenant, Gentiles are allowed into his family too.

There are two parties in the new covenant. Either, you fit in house of Israel or house of Judah. There is no Gentile group.. ..

Paul may use the term Gentiles, but only as one's former state. You are now a member of the Commonwealth of Israel. He understood the mystery of the gospel... the divorced house of Israel could return! That's why he quotes Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos, etc... same reason James and Peter quote them.

It is a renewed covenant that writes Torah on our hearts. Yes, that Torah!

And, we may see shades of its coming fulfillment, but it. is. not. yet. in. place. It doesn't happen until Ezekiel 37:24-28! Multiple passages in Ezekiel confirm this. Shocking... but true. Not mythology based on ignoring the Torah and the prophets.

Doesn't mean we don't have salvation by faith in Messiah. Just means we aren't as far along as Christendom thinks we are.

 

[Cap]

This is false the system was not established by Moses but you already knew that.

Correct, Moses instituted what God established.

 

[Cap]

@Jim an Apostle justification has always been by faith, but obedience is still required. Why is this so hard to understand?

No law = lawlessness. It is the son of perdition that is lawless.

The Law is within Christ. If you follow Christ by faith you are following the Law.

 

[Cap]

Can there only be one priesthood?

 

[PeteR]

The Law is within Christ. If you follow Christ by faith you are following the Law.

Exactly! Walk as He Himself walked! Keep the feasts, keep Shabbat, eat clean, etc...

 

[Pacman]

There’s so much wrong with this . . . From Torah. And there’s massive difference between a Levitical and Melchizedek. A Levitical priesthood is exclusive with zero caveats. They cannot coexist

They exested simultaneously for centuries the earthly levitical priesthood is a copy of the melchiizedek heavenly. They don't both exist on earth I agree with that...

 

[rockfox]

'He who annuls or teaches to annul will be LEAST in the kingdom, but he who teaches and keeps will be GREAT in the Kingdom.'

Now, explain to me again how it is not in effect....

(The key is to understand we are no longer under the CURSE of the Law. The Lawitself is not and cannot be a curse. It brings blessing and righteousness and peace! 'In keeping it is great reward!' Halleluayah!)

Sin is still sin.

The verse in Hebrews 8 is taken from Jeremiah 31:31 and following... One thing I have to ask. If it is no longer in effect, why are we still having to minister to people when the text plainly states, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them
on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall
know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them."
The other question I have is what house are you a part of? Because this covenant appears to be with the House of Israel and House of Judah... I don't see a House of Baptists or House of Presbyterians or House of Rockfoxes... There's only 2 houses that this covenant is made with.

That's a nice argument, but Hebrews very plainly states we are now under the New Covenant and not the Old. So if your understanding of that prophecy leads you to think otherwise, you've misinterpreted the prophecy (an easy thing to do).

The most likely explanation is Jeremiah is pointing to the helper that would come, the Holy Spirit in us, and all the work that He works in the hearts of man.

The NT teaches all the nations who accept Christ are grafted onto the same tree. Ezekiel also prophecies this IIRC.

“until all is accomplished”.

That reminds me of Christ's final statements upon the cross. Which also happens to be when the Old Covenant ended, and when the drapes in the holy of holys ripped.

 

[rockfox]

There was nothing wrong with the Torah. It was and is perfect.

No it wasn't...

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant

That in Heb 8:6-8. Can you affirm this scripture? Repeat after me, "There was something wrong with the Torah." Can you say that? Or are you held captive by your own doctrine? The book of Hebrews could not be more plain.

@Pacman is right.... the italics are added by the translators. The problem, as the next verse points out, is not with 'it' but with 'them.' The problem was not the perfect Torah but the priesthood and the people.

Sorry, that won't get you out of it. verses 6 and 8 make it very plain. The italicized insert (to make the translation more readable) is accurate.

Contrary to 1800 years of errant Christian doctrine, the New (technically renewed) Covenant is not yet in place. We see shadows and pieces, but it is not in place yet. Not possible. Pieces aren't all there yet. Period.

This could not be more wrong.... (Hebrews 9)

11But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The New Covenant is here now, in place and in effect.

Frankly this is your jump the shark moment for me, you're claiming things plainly contradicted. The whole of the New Testament teaches against any conception that the New Covenant is not in force now.

clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter
4And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Is there another Text that you base your beliefs upon?

I’m just saying that there’s a lot of people that are unaware or unconcerned that the popular text has been doctored to promote a very specific perspective. To what degree, I don’t fully know yet, but virtually everything I’ve found dealing with Melchizedek has issues, the virgin birth, and several chronological issues. And I’m just getting started in my examination.

As to the eating clean, obviously I follow a different set of dietary restrictions as I am not Torah Observant and have different views on Shabbat as well. For Biblical reasons. Not your reasons, but reasons nonetheless.

Be carful VV76. This way is littered with wrecked ships and ruined faith. We can know what is the original text quite easily between the Septuagint and the New Testament and quotes of the Bible in in other sources. There’s no need to start questioning the Virgin Birth and what not. That would be folly.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Which now gets to which High Priest are we to follow, the Levitical or the Melchizedek, which is the second or better. And which was established before the old religious system established by Moses.

It wasn’t established by Moses. It was established by God on a flaming mountian rocked by earthquakes . Moses just got to hear it first.

 

[The Revolting Man]

No it wasn't...



That in Heb 8:6-8. Can you affirm this scripture? Repeat after me, "There was something wrong with the Torah." Can you say that? Or are you held captive by your own doctrine? The book of Hebrews could not be more plain.



Sorry, that won't get you out of it. verses 6 and 8 make it very plain. The italicized insert (to make the translation more readable) is accurate.



This could not be more wrong.... (Hebrews 9)



The New Covenant is here now, in place and in effect.

Frankly this is your jump the shark moment for me, you're claiming things plainly contradicted. The whole of the New Testament teaches against any conception that the New Covenant is not in force now.

This is the argument I can never understand, the “old covenant” was somehow flawed, even though it came from God Himself. God spoke the words, literally wrote some of them down but they’re flawed. They’re not right. Either God didn’t know what He was doing or maybe He was just kidding or maybe He was lying but somehow you, and those who believe like you, have convinced yourselves that God did something bad or wrong. He gave us Laws but they were bad laws. He screwed it up somehow, some way for some reason we don’t understand. I can’t accept this. It seems almost heretical to me and it blows my mind that anyone would make the claim.

 

[GunnarR]

No it wasn't...



That in Heb 8:6-8. Can you affirm this scripture? Repeat after me, "There was something wrong with the Torah." Can you say that? Or are you held captive by your own doctrine? The book of Hebrews could not be more plain.



Sorry, that won't get you out of it. verses 6 and 8 make it very plain. The italicized insert (to make the translation more readable) is accurate.



This could not be more wrong.... (Hebrews 9)



The New Covenant is here now, in place and in effect.

Frankly this is your jump the shark moment for me, you're claiming things plainly contradicted. The whole of the New Testament teaches against any conception that the New Covenant is not in force now.

There is nothing wrong with the Torah.
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Deuteronomy 4:2 NIV
His (YHVH's words) Torah was so perfect nothing needed to be added or subtracted.

The law (Torah) of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Psalms 19:7 NIV
If scripture contradicts itself, check your own doctrine. The book of Hebrews only reaffirms what was written in what the prophets and Moses wrote... If Paul was advocating for the destruction of Torah, then the Sanhedren wouldn't have to have made up false accusations against him to try and kill him.