LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK OF HEBREWS

[Cap]

Romans 2:28A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

 

[PeteR]

@Verifyveritas76 I agree, non-Jews, aka 'Gentiles' are part of the covenant. And the way they are part is that they are in the house of Israel, whether they know it or not. It is the way prophecy is written.

17 When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on Ephraim’s head, it displeased him; and he grasped his father’s hand to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.”

That is 'multitude of GENTILES!'

Follow the breadcrumbs.... Ephraim = house of Joseph = house of Israel = dynastic tribe of northern kingdom -> SCATTERED to the ends of the earth!

Maybe a better way to ask is this: Where did the house of Israel go? What happened to them? Where are they today? God promises, maybe a hundred times in Scripture that He will most assuredly restore them or He is not God. He will bring them back from the ends of the earth. They will be the second stick, the second half of the two parties in the new covenant. Where are they? Ever tried to figure it out? Remember, Hosea 1:10!! They will be innumerable there are so many... (Hint: This ain't the Jews. We know how many of them there are!!)

He hid the house of Israel in plain sight! You can find them in church pews all over the world.

6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

The disciples understood Yeshua was restoring the kingdom. He doesn't correct them and say, 'No, you dolts, we're starting a new religion...' Instead, He tells them to be witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and in Samaria and the remotest parts of the earth. Why?

Capitol of house of Judah was in Jerusalem and the residents were largely in Judea, the capitol of the scattered house of Israel was Samaria and the people were in the uttermost parts of the earth!

Yeshua, in Matthew 24:31 says, 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

It wasn't a matter of IF Israel would be scattered, it was a matter of WHEN. But, God promised to regther... note this passage's connections with prophecy and Yeshua's words...

30 “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you, 2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, 3 then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are at the ends of the sky, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

There are so many connections I could write a book about it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

There’s far more information about Melchizedek than the trinity.

Not even remotely true, we get two cryptic mentions of Melchizedek. Vast swaths of the New Testament are directed at the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The word “trinity” doesn’t occur in the Bible but the concepts it was coined to encapsulate are some of the main points of the whole Bible.

 

[rockfox]

This is the argument I can never understand, the “old covenant” was somehow flawed, even though it came from God Himself. God spoke the words, literally wrote some of them down but they’re flawed. They’re not right. Either God didn’t know what He was doing or maybe He was just kidding or maybe He was lying but somehow you, and those who believe like you, have convinced yourselves that God did something bad or wrong. He gave us Laws but they were bad laws. He screwed it up somehow, some way for some reason we don’t understand. I can’t accept this. It seems almost heretical to me and it blows my mind that anyone would make the claim.

It's not 'an argument', it's a literal quote of scripture...

He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant

So if you find it heretical that there was something wrong with the Old Covenant, there is something amiss in your perspective and/or logic.

There is nothing wrong with the Torah.

And yet there it is, in black and white in Hebrews 8:6-8. You are directly contradicting scripture.

And the problem here is in your use of 'perfect'.

Deuteronomy 4:2 NIV
His (YHVH's words) Torah was so perfect nothing needed to be added or subtracted

That scripture doesn't say it's perfect, just not to add or take away. That doesn't imply perfect or that God stopped talking. It only means don't change what God delivered, at best it means the complete covenant was delivered. But that speaks nothing to the quality of it.

The law (Torah) of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
Psalms 19:7 NIV

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8549.htm

Brown-Driver-Briggs
תָּמִים91 adjective complete, sound; also whole, sound healthful, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity

But that doesn't mean that the covenant was faultless, just that it was complete / uncompromised / healthful for refreshing the soul. Perfect as in complete/fit for the task of refreshing the soul. But not without fault, or we'd have had no need for Christ.

Your argument Gunnar is based on the shaky foundation of construing the meaning of 1 word, and while it is understandable at first blush taken alone, the writer of Hebrews goes into some depth and is quite clear that there was something wrong with the first covenant and that we now have a new and better one. We are no longer held captive to the old one.

 

[The Revolting Man]

It's not 'an argument', it's a literal quote of scripture...



So if you find it heretical that there was something wrong with the Old Covenant, there is something amiss in your perspective and/or logic.



And yet there it is, in black and white in Hebrews 8:6-8. You are directly contradicting scripture.

And the problem here is in your use of 'perfect'.



That scripture doesn't say it's perfect, just not to add or take away. That doesn't imply perfect or that God stopped talking. It only means don't change what God delivered, at best it means the complete covenant was delivered. But that speaks nothing to the quality of it.



https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8549.htm

Brown-Driver-Briggs
תָּמִים91 adjective complete, sound; also whole, sound healthful, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity

But that doesn't mean that the covenant was faultless, just that it was complete / uncompromised / healthful for refreshing the soul. Perfect as in complete/fit for the task of refreshing the soul. But not without fault, or we'd have had no need for Christ.

Your argument Gunnar is based on the shaky foundation of construing the meaning of 1 word, and while it is understandable at first blush taken alone, the writer of Hebrews goes into some depth and is quite clear that there was something wrong with the first covenant and that we now have a new and better one. We are no longer held captive to the old one.

The contradictions would be unavoidable and myriad in your interpretation. You just embrace them wildly and roll gleefully in irreconcilable statements. Your God, I should say god, is either a liar or a petty trickster. It seems like a waste of time to restrict your life for such an entity.

 

[PeteR]

Read this today and the relevance to our discussion was immediate. .. From Isaiah 2

Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the Lord Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord , To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths.” For the Torah will go forth from Zion And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the Lord .
Isaiah 2:2‭-‬5 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/isa.2.2-5.NASB

 

[FollowingHim]

And He will judge between the nations

After the second coming. Not necessarily any relevance to Israel and the house of Jacob today.

 

[PeteR]

After the second coming. Not necessarily any relevance to Israel and the house of Jacob today.

That actually sounds like Ezekiel 40-48...

The important part is that it confirms the standard and direction: Torah and Jerusalem. For all people.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

After the second coming. Not necessarily any relevance to Israel and the house of Jacob today.

this hits the nail pretty much on the head!

The Law was particularly for the seed of Jacob. The Law was to bring them to Christ and to preserve the promise and the people with enough faith and obedience that could allow for Christ to be born with a heritage that would preserve the word and worship of God in order that Christ could fulfill His purpose in the earth and in His own exaltation. The door of Grace and Faith was opened to all mankind and the Law was taken out of the way. The Nation rejected the work of the Holy Spirit and the Messiah that was the only path to resurrection. Those who died in faith in the coming redeemer will be resurrected the rest of the nation was cut off. Jesus is the only path to resurrection and glorification.

There will be survivors of the Tribulation. They will never have access to resurrection or glorification. They will return to the Law and the promises to the flesh and blood children of Jacob will be fulfilled at that time. We, the resurrected ones, will rule as Kings and Priests with Christ. The flesh and blood of Jacob will rule over the flesh and blood Gentiles. Those of flesh and blood may live forever (in the flesh) but still subject to Law and the Gentiles will be subject to the Sons of Jacob.

If you want a resurrected/glorified body get it now; but it only comes through Christ.

 

[PeteR]

Sorry @Jim an Apostle there is so much Scripture that contradicts what you wrote that my head just exploded....

Personally, I trust what Yeshua said. 'He who would be great in the kingdom will keep and teach even the least of the commandments.'

Malachi chapter 4 might be a really good place to start. Notice especially verse 5... statures and ordinances...

By the way, Passover is an ordinance forever... and, it is a sign upon your forehead... therefore, let us keep the feast, but not with the old leaven of malice and wickedness...

 

[rockfox]

11In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a [j]festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of things to come, but the [k]substance is of Christ. 18Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has [l]not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20[m]Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and [n]neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[The Revolting Man]

11In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a [j]festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of things to come, but the [k]substance is of Christ. 18Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has [l]not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20[m]Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and [n]neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Did you notice in verse 16 and 17 there that those things are a shadow, as in currently they illustrate a spiritual truth. It didn’t say they were a shadow, they are a shadow. I don’t think this proof text is proving what you want it to.

 

[PeteR]

Did you notice in verse 16 and 17 there that those things are a shadow, as in currently they illustrate a spiritual truth. It didn’t say they were a shadow, they are a shadow. I don’t think this proof text is proving what you want it to.

Nevermind, if you are standing in the shadow, it means you are darn close to whatever or whoever is casting the shadow....

Pretty sure when God said 'perpetual in all your dwelling places throughout your generations' He meant... perpetual! See Lev 23:14, 21, 31, 41.... He didn't stutter.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

20[m]Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

I guess the real question is whether you are dead with Christ or not.

 

[PeteR]

I guess the real question is whether you are dead with Christ or not.

You may want to read the next three or four verses that clearly demonstrate Paul is talking about commandments and doctrines of....MEN. Yeah... false religious tradition.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

You may want to read the next three or four verses that clearly demonstrate Paul is talking about commandments and doctrines of....MEN. Yeah... false religious tradition.

So you are saying that the death of Christ was to free us from man's traditions and commandments? really?

 

[PeteR]

So you are saying that the death of Christ was to free us from man's traditions and commandments? really?

Well, it wasn't to free us from the Torah because 'I did not come to abolish the Law.'

He did come to free us from the CURSE of the Law. The law itself is not a curse, unless you think God brought His people out of Egypt to put them in bondage...

Rather, the curse occurred when we disobeyed the Law... sin is transgression of the Law, 1 Jn 3:2 ( I think).

See Christendom errantly thinks the Law is a curse when Scripture actually says it is a blessing. It is life, peace, prosperity, fullness of joy. And, having submitted myself to it and walking as my Messiah walked, I can testify that this is true. WAY more freedom than I ever experienced in church or in Christian tradition. And, I still have my Messiah!

 

[Jim an Apostle]

it is a blessing. It is life

Did or could anyone ever attain eternal life through keeping the Law?

 

[tps26]

So you are saying that the death of Christ was to free us from man's traditions and commandments? really?

Isn't that the very fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Judging ourselves and each other by our own standards instead of submitting all to the Father, doing as we please, exercising our "free" will? The commandments (will) of man are the very offspring of the seed in that fruit.

 

[PeteR]

Did or could anyone ever attain eternal life through keeping the Law?

Scripture says it brings life. I can only assume that obedience by faith did indeed bring eternal life, the payment being made by Messiah. I fully expect to see David, Jacob, Moses and Abraham in the Kingdom along with millions of Israelites who walked by faith.

Belief in Messiah does not negate the standard of righteousness. If we are to walk as He walked, then we might want to keep Torah. That's how He was without sin!