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Live by the sword?

Mojo

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
Premise: We are living in times that are increasingly anti- Christian. We are living in times that are increasingly anti-traditional Western society. We see violence and political movements seeking to undo Christianity, traditional/biblical patriarchy, the heterosexual nuclear family, and Western heritage.

Solutions:

As Christians, what is our response?
What is biblical?
What is appropriate?
Is there room for pacifism?
Do we take on martyrdom?
Do we simply try to exist underground?
Do we take up swords?

I lean towards pacifism and going underground, as they seem to be the strictest biblical prescription, but am open to the thoughts of others.

Thoughts?
 
It’s hard question.
Mathew 5:38-48 includes turn the other cheek and love your enemies, but what if they are attempting to rape your wives and children?
 
It’s hard question.
Mathew 5:38-48 includes turn the other cheek and love your enemies, but what if they are attempting to rape your wives and children?

It is hard!

I would think that under truly totalitarian regimes, there are only two options:

Suck it up, and live to lead your family another day.
Act to defend, and in the process, be killed for resistance.
 
The Kingdom of God suffereth violence, if you do not have a sword then sell your cloak and buy one. Peter did.

No one would say America shouldn’t have fought the Nazis. In the abstract we can acknowledge that Evil must be resisted but in our lives we’ve lost the clarity to label someone’s actions as evil.

Remember that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the fear of the Lord is the hatred of Evil.

When we allow Evil to reign we make it more likely that our children and grandchildren will lose Faith and apostize. I would much rather risk my salvation than theirs.

When Nehemiah rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem they worked with a trowel in one hand and a sword in the other. David said that God trained his fingers for war and his hands to fight. Abraham fought to protect his family. Moses was the deciding factor in entire battles. When Jesus converted the Centurion did He tell him to quit being a soldier? Did He tell Peter to throw away his sword?

The short answer is that as a Christian man you are called by God to uphold His Law, punish the evil doers and raise your children
in righteousness. You can’t do those things without violence. Buy a rifle, seven magazines, and ten magazines worth of ammunition and then get some training. The forces of Evil are gathering and they are coming for the defenseless. Do not be defenseless. Peace only comes through strength!
 
What you do with a weapon is a choice. Without a weapon you have no choice.

When you have a weapon others choose more carefully.

There is a principle called the guilty bystander. If you see a wrong being done and do nothing to stop it you are guilty as if you did it. Protecting others is important.
 
Everything Has Its Time
1To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

2A time [a]to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.
 
John McArthur once posited that the American Revolution was technically an unChristian act because it sought to overthrow a sovereign government ordained by God.

If there was ever a government hostile to Christians, it was Rome (using Christians as night torches, being fed to lions, etc.) yet the Christians seemed to welcome martyrdom.
 
John McArthur once posited that the American Revolution was technically an unChristian act because it sought to overthrow a sovereign government ordained by God.

If there was ever a government hostile to Christians, it was Rome (using Christians as night torches, being fed to lions, etc.) yet the Christians seemed to welcome martyrdom.

John McArthur is wrong. He's taking scripture out of context. The believers in Rome were more in the category of defenseless than welcoming...
 
Everything Has Its Time
1To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

2A time [a]to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.

Notice that surrender to evil is not on that list...
 
John McArthur once posited that the American Revolution was technically an unChristian act because it sought to overthrow a sovereign government ordained by God.

That presumes an extreme pro-monarchy view which sees rebellion against Kings as wrong and it can never be the case that a King looses the mandate from heaven.

The on the ground reality was different though. The colonies were all set up with charters from the King which gave them certain rights to self government, rights which the King was violating. Whatever the case that ship has sailed long ago and Britain has long since recognized our government and people as sovereign.

And in our present system the sovereign ruler isn't a King, or the State government, or the Federal government, but the People. What is happening now is oligarchical elites are overthrowing the proper government (of We The People).
 
John McArthur is wrong. He's taking scripture out of context. The believers in Rome were more in the category of defenseless than welcoming...
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there isno power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselvesdamnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, andthou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou dothat which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, butalso for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God'sministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whomhonour.

Give us the context and the interpretation of this portion that McArthur was referencing.

20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Is it possible that they may have been welcoming?
 
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That presumes an extreme pro-monarchy view which sees rebellion against Kings as wrong and it can never be the case that a King looses the mandate from heaven.

The on the ground reality was different though. The colonies were all set up with charters from the King which gave them certain rights to self government, rights which the King was violating. Whatever the case that ship has sailed long ago and Britain has long since recognized our government and people as sovereign.

And in our present system the sovereign ruler isn't a King, or the State government, or the Federal government, but the People. What is happening now is oligarchical elites are overthrowing the proper government (of We The People).

Was armed conflict the only resolution when disputing with the king?

We The People consists of more than just one side.
 
No one would say America shouldn’t have fought the Nazis.
Really? The paleo conservatives going back to Wilson argued against intervening in both European wars.

Both Washington warning about foreign entanglements and Monroe essentially saying that Europe should take care of Europe and the US would tend to both North and South America are pretty strong traditions of non foreign interventionists.
 
I am torn between two philosophies.

With my human logic, I instinctively agree with @The Revolting Man. When faced with danger, the obvious and logical thing to do is to prepare to defend yourself and your household. You FEEL more in control, more assured, when you have a weapon and the skills to use it. And we've seen in the past year in Texas how armed people can stop a mass shooter in a church. This is the natural and logical approach.
And there is that one verse about buying a sword.

But there are so many other verses about peace and turning the other cheek, that the one verse about swords seems to be the exception that proves the rule. And the early church were pacifists. In many cases they would not even allow a soldier to join the church. The ancient Christian interpretation of Jesus' teaching was so radical it seems insane to us - but that doesn't mean we should disregard it. On the contrary, it's so challenging to our thinking that it's probably worth pondering extremely carefully, to determine whether our first reaction might just be wrong.
No one would say America shouldn’t have fought the Nazis.
That is completely incorrect. I agree with Mojo - many have argued America should not have joined in WW2.

Think about how that would have gone for a moment. After Dunkirk, Germany occupied northern France largely to defend Germany against Britain - the armistice agreement itself specifies that this occupation would be greatly reduced the moment war with Britain ceased. It is widely understood that Hitler offered Britain favourable terms of peace during and after the battle of Dunkirk in 1940, but these were rejected. After all, Germany never wanted to fight Britain, it was Britain who declared war on Germany. Britain was able to reject this offer of peace and keep fighting because they could rely on material support from the USA - and later received military support also. If the USA had refused to support Britain in their war with Germany, Britain would have been forced to accept peace, and the war on the Western front would have ended in 1940.

If the USA had also refused to offer material support to the Soviet Union, and a weaker Soviet Union now had to face the full force of a Germany fighting only on one front, the Eastern front war may have ended much sooner one way or another (ie less death), and large chunks of Eastern Europe would have never ended up under communism (whether they'd have been better off under Naziism is of course debatable).

If Germany was at peace with the West, even if they had wished to persecute the Jews, the worst excesses would have been unable to be hidden from the public and media under the "fog of war", and the Jews would have more easily escaped through peaceful borders in the West.

If the British Commonwealth was not distracted in Europe (because Britain had been forced to accept peace with Germany), there would have been no vacuum of power in the Pacific for Japan to try and exploit, and the war in the Pacific may never have even begun.

Lots of what-ifs there, but to put it simply - if fewer people fight, fewer people die. Choosing not to fight = peace.

However, it's hard to see it from that angle, because we have been all taught to see WW2 as a just war, where the West was truly on the side of good against pure evil. That is because, by the end of the war, so many people had died that it was simply unthinkable to come to any other conclusion. Millions of children without fathers could be told "Daddy was a hero fighting for good", or "Daddy died because the government conscripted him to a pointless war". The second is simply not an option, either emotionally for individuals, or practically for governments who don't want to be overthrown by a revolt. So in the West we have been raised to see WW2 as the just war, and in the USSR they were raised to see it as the Great Patriotic War, with our own side being purely good and the opponent as pure evil (the actions of each selectively reported to strengthen that narrative). It's so deeply ingrained in our entire worldview that we just can't see it any other way without enormous and conscious effort.

Just like monogamy... :)
 
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I am torn between two philosophies.

With my human logic, I instinctively agree with @The Revolting Man. When faced with danger, the obvious and logical thing to do is to prepare to defend yourself and your household. You FEEL more in control, more assured, when you have a weapon and the skills to use it. And we've seen in the past year in Texas how armed people can stop a mass shooter in a church. This is the natural and logical approach.
And there is that one verse about buying a sword.

But there are so many other verses about peace and turning the other cheek, that the one verse about swords seems to be the exception that proves the rule. And the early church were pacifists. In many cases they would not even allow a soldier to join the church. The ancient Christian interpretation of Jesus' teaching was so radical it seems insane to us - but that doesn't mean we should disregard it. On the contrary, it's so challenging to our thinking that it's probably worth pondering extremely carefully, to determine whether our first reaction might just be wrong.

That is completely incorrect. I agree with Mojo - many have argued America should not have joined in WW2.

Think about how that would have gone for a moment. After Dunkirk, Germany occupied northern France largely to defend Germany against Britain - the armistice agreement itself specifies that this occupation would be greatly reduced the moment war with Britain ceased. It is widely understood that Hitler offered Britain favourable terms of peace during and after the battle of Dunkirk in 1940, but these were rejected. After all, Germany never wanted to fight Britain, it was Britain who declared war on Germany. Britain was able to reject this offer of peace and keep fighting because they could rely on material support from the USA - and later received military support also. If the USA had refused to support Britain in their war with Germany, Britain would have been forced to accept peace, and the war on the Western front would have ended in 1940.

If the USA had also refused to offer material support to the Soviet Union, and a weaker Soviet Union now had to face the full force of a Germany fighting only on one front, the Eastern front war may have ended much sooner one way or another (ie less death), and large chunks of Eastern Europe would have never ended up under communism (whether they'd have been better off under Naziism is of course debatable).

If Germany was at peace with the West, even if they had wished to persecute the Jews, the worst excesses would have been unable to be hidden from the public and media under the "fog of war", and the Jews would have more easily escaped through peaceful borders in the West.

If the British Commonwealth was not distracted in Europe (because Britain had been forced to accept peace with Germany), there would have been no vacuum of power in the Pacific for Japan to try and exploit, and the war in the Pacific may never have even begun.

Lots of what-ifs there, but to put it simply - if fewer people fight, fewer people die. Choosing not to fight = peace.

However, it's hard to see it from that angle, because we have been all taught to see WW2 as a just war, where the West was truly on the side of good against pure evil. That is because, by the end of the war, so many people had died that it was simply unthinkable to come to any other conclusion. Millions of children without fathers could be told "Daddy was a hero fighting for good", or "Daddy died because the government conscripted him to a pointless war". The second is simply not an option, either emotionally for individuals, or practically for governments who don't want to be overthrown by a revolt. So in the West we have been raised to see WW2 as the just war, and in the USSR they were raised to see it as the Great Patriotic War, with our own side being purely good and the opponent as pure evil (the actions of each selectively reported to strengthen that narrative). It's so deeply ingrained in our entire worldview that we just can't see it any other way without enormous and conscious effort.

Just like monogamy... :)
Hitler was executing literally millions of civilians. He didn’t want war with Britain because he thought Britain was an Aryan nation that would freely join with him. Britain was required to declare war on Germany by treaty for any number of infractions but certainly when they invaded France. Again. You are really looking at Britain’s actions in a vacuum.

War is sometimes necessary. You say the “sword verse” is an exception but it’s not. I listed off a half a dozen instances, @rockfox added another, I’ll add an additional one; when Peter chopped off the war of the guy in the garden Jesus told him to put his sword away. He didn’t tell him to throw it away or never pick it back up. He simply said that then wasn’t the time. You can’t pretend the guy with the whip was a pacifist.
 
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there isno power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselvesdamnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, andthou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou dothat which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, butalso for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God'sministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whomhonour.

Give us the context and the interpretation of this portion that McArthur was referencing.

20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Is it possible that they may have been welcoming?
These passages only apply to authorities established by God, who do justice, punish the evildoer and silence the tongue of the ignorant. All others are illegitimate. Do you honestly believe God establishes evil governments and then expects us to go along with evil?
 
Without the United States involvement in World War II most of the world would either be speaking Japanese or German. The idea that the US was wrong to get involved in World War II is ridiculous. Of course the argument can be made about the bad things that the United States did during World War II and after it but it pales in comparison to the pure evil that was going on from both the Japanese and the Germans.
 
Do you honestly believe God establishes evil governments and then expects us to go along with evil?
God doesn't have to establish anything. Man's own devices will always establish evil governments. It's in our nature. But, God does use evil governments for his own purposes (see Revelation). Daniel and the Hebrew children didn't lead an armed insurrection when told to bow their knees before a false god (a manifestation of the government). They simply refused in peace and went willingly to the death sentence.
 
It might be that we actually have to be in relationship with Yah and hear from Him on individual situations.

Taking a legalistic stance is easy.
 
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