Marriage papers

[sadanyagci]

Like many on this forum, I despise the current marriage systems of the world. I don't like the idea of being "married by" someone, as that would be as if I was agreeing that he had authority to do so, and that his actions meant anything in relation to the marriage itself. I also don't believe that the governments of this world have any right to grant or prohibit marriage, whether to one wife or one thousand. I do not wish to honor their prohibition of marriage... what is known as a doctrine of demons.

However, I also have the issue of being in an area that doesn't acknowledge marriage except by civil authorities. Having kids without such can mean that hospitals will abort the pregnancy in some of these countries, as no one recognizes the marriage and thus consider it evil. There is also the issue of visas and such. The question is, how can an American have something accepted as stating that there is a marriage, without going through the marriage license system?

 

[mrscottyl]

Some states have what is known as Common Law marriages. Here in Texas, you can have a common law marriage by going somewhere and registering as Mr. and Mrs.. But the problem is, and a debate that is going on here, especially in the light of the YFZ raids and persecution is can they also prosecute for bigamy for a common law marriage? Some lawyers in the state say you can. I refuse to get a marriage certificate, and I do not care if the civil government recognizes my marriage or not. But I understand where there may be problems. Will lift you up in prayer.

Scott

 

[Paul not the apostle]

There is the option of establishing a marriage contract, the contract being between the man and woman interested, and having the contract drawn up and recorded with the local clerk of court as a valid two party contract. This is as legal as any other contract to buy land, a car, or anything you want. It is a private party contract. I will try to find time to post a link or send you an example of one.

Paul

 

[sadanyagci]

The problem is

• having something recognized internationally (meaning something stating that two are married, that can be verified)
• getting it without being in the USA

 

[Mark C]

Ultimately, Sadan -- and here I will point you to a lot of the information and comments on my own "Come out of her, My people", site -- there simply comes a time to take what 'the world' will no doubt regard as a "hard line".

Either we belong to Caesar, and serve him, or to YHVH, and "serve Him only". We literally cannot serve two masters, and we all remember what James says about the "double-minded man".

There really does come a time to "come out of her", and be separate - so that we do not participate in her sins, or partake of the coming plagues. It's not supposed to be easy; the prince of this world has done his evil best to see to that. The real question is whether we will be obedient to our Savior and true King anyway.


Blessings,
Mark

 

[sadanyagci]

I'm perfectly fine with doing everything I can to circumvent the world's systems, coming out of her. But there are details that need working out. And it's a bit more complex for me than most. I don't exactly live a normal American life... nor is that in my future.

I pretty much know what NOT to do for marriage. The difficult part is knowing what exactly TO do.

As for making a legal contract, I'm not exactly sure how that would be done with me way over here. I'm also not sure how accepted that will be. In the end, if it's not, I simply will avoid the things that require such records. But that may rule out going to hospitals (at all) for pregnancies (not that I'm a fan of hospital birthing, but midwives in this place... wouldn't trust 'em).

So, what exactly does the legal contract entail, and what benefit is it?

As for common law marriage, I don't see how that is different from the regular form in this area. Enlighten me please. :geek:

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Sadan,

I hope that's the right spelling of your name. OK I think you should clarify for us what really goes on where you live and how that affects what you are talking about. What would a hospital do if you don't have documentation of your marriage? Would you try to get a wife from US and have trouble getting her in your country because you won't have a mariage license? In US you can have a baby in hospital with no husband, multiple boyfriends and even lesbian lovers so we have a hard time answering you... I think most births should be at home too but if an emergency arises you need to be able to have a hospital back up plan so your question is valid.

 

[Mark C]

As for common law marriage, I don't see how that is different from the regular form in this area. Enlighten me please. :geek:

Put simply, it's NOT. Same assumed "license" from Caesar, same trap. It's a way for the State to close the "loophole" of those who do not seek its permission.

 

[mrscottyl]

Put simply, it's NOT. Same assumed "license" from Caesar, same trap. It's a way for the State to close the "loophole" of those who do not seek its permission.

Mark,
The problem is that even in not trying to seek the State's permission, if you honestly say that your wife is your wife somewhere or mention it in writing, then you are caught in that legal loophole.

Scott

 

[Mark C]

Agreed, Scott. The principle is that of "presumption" - and the State will make EVERY imaginable attempt (and others that perhaps defy imagination) to "extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction (borrowing from the indictment against a former Tyrant ) against us."

Those presumptions are "rebuttable", however, and must ALWAYS be objected to when silence would constitute consent.

Bottom line: don't consent, and "know the ways" of the Adversary. But don't do something that constitutes a deliberate submission to 'another master', either!

 

[sadanyagci]

What would a hospital do if you don't have documentation of your marriage?

They will abort the pregnancy in the country God currently has me in.

Would you try to get a wife from US and have trouble getting her in your country because you won't have a mariage license?

A wife from the USA is less of a problem. Americans can pretty much always get tourist visas at least. It's just more stress, as without marriage certification I can't count someone as family in order to get them residence and work permits. And the USA is my country. God has just sent me out of it.

In US you can have a baby in hospital with no husband, multiple boyfriends and even lesbian lovers so we have a hard time answering you... I think most births should be at home too but if an emergency arises you need to be able to have a hospital back up plan so your question is valid.

Yeah, the middle east is not like this. I suppose I could fly to a country like Turkey for births, as they would have no issues... but that can be quite costly and impractical.

 

[jackson]

I know exactly what the original poster is talking about, I think. When you live outside the US for long periods of time, you need to worry about things like visas in other countries and even recognition of the marriages. In some gulf countries, if you are a foreign woman and you get pregnant out of wedlock then you can be jailed for it. (worse if you are a local woman). If you have a job in a country and you want your wife to accompany you, you need to be able to show proof of marriage to get her a visa as your dependent.

Getting married can solve that but in order to get married in MANY countries abroad you need an affidavit from the US Embassy saying that you are single. If you get that form and you are currently married then guess what? Yep, you just violated US law. Furthermore, the US Embassy/State Department will know of your marriage. It may be one thing to violate the law in a country that you will never live in, but quite another to violate the law in your home country...who can cancel out your passport.

If you want to get married abroad and are in a poly marriage, then unless you are Muslim, it's quite difficult. A Muslim friend in Indonesia claims that you can get married as a Muslim without really being a Muslim if you got some small cash to pay.

Another option is to get married in a country that a)doesn't require affidavits from embassies and b) isn't a country you plan to live in. Hong Kong is one example. You can apply for the license via mail and set a date. Just fly into Hong Kong, find a couple of witnesses and get married. You walk away with a marriage certificate from Hong Kong and no one outside of Hong Kong will know the marriage exists. When a situation arises when you need to show the marriage exists, all you need to do is show the marriage certificate. Singapore is possibly another option, if you have time to wait.

Another option is a country that is very loose and for the payment of bribes will look the other way in requiring affidavits.

While none of these is good solution, negative impacts can be lessened.

 

[sadanyagci]

Put simply, it's NOT. Same assumed "license" from Caesar, same trap. It's a way for the State to close the "loophole" of those who do not seek its permission.

Mark,
The problem is that even in not trying to seek the State's permission, if you honestly say that your wife is your wife somewhere or mention it in writing, then you are caught in that legal loophole.

Scott

Agreed, Scott. The principle is that of "presumption" - and the State will make EVERY imaginable attempt (and others that perhaps defy imagination) to "extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction (borrowing from the indictment against a former Tyrant ) against us."

Those presumptions are "rebuttable", however, and must ALWAYS be objected to when silence would constitute consent.

Bottom line: don't consent, and "know the ways" of the Adversary. But don't do something that constitutes a deliberate submission to 'another master', either!

I find an interesting loophole to their loophole. I was once talking to a girl that hated marriage. When I explained biblical marriage to her, she exclaimed "OH, dom/sub" and immediately loved it. Husband/Wife is soiled terminology in the western world. So, why are we sticking to it? Our ways of marriage are not what they refer to as marriage. It does not have their rules. It does not have their system's implications. So why are we using soiled names?

 

[sadanyagci]

I know exactly what the original poster is talking about, I think. When you live outside the US for long periods of time, you need to worry about things like visas in other countries and even recognition of the marriages. In some gulf countries, if you are a foreign woman and you get pregnant out of wedlock then you can be jailed for it. (worse if you are a local woman). If you have a job in a country and you want your wife to accompany you, you need to be able to show proof of marriage to get her a visa as your dependent.

Getting married can solve that but in order to get married in MANY countries abroad you need an affidavit from the US Embassy saying that you are single. If you get that form and you are currently married then guess what? Yep, you just violated US law. Furthermore, the US Embassy/State Department will know of your marriage. It may be one thing to violate the law in a country that you will never live in, but quite another to violate the law in your home country...who can cancel out your passport.

Yes, this is exactly what I was referring to.

Another option is to get married in a country that a)doesn't require affidavits from embassies and b) isn't a country you plan to live in. Hong Kong is one example. You can apply for the license via mail and set a date. Just fly into Hong Kong, find a couple of witnesses and get married. You walk away with a marriage certificate from Hong Kong and no one outside of Hong Kong will know the marriage exists. When a situation arises when you need to show the marriage exists, all you need to do is show the marriage certificate. Singapore is possibly another option, if you have time to wait.

Another option is a country that is very loose and for the payment of bribes will look the other way in requiring affidavits.

There might be issues when someone presents 2 American passports with a Hong Kong marriage certificate. American law requires you to register your marriage with the embassy and get their license and marriage certificate.

If you want to get married abroad and are in a poly marriage, then unless you are Muslim, it's quite difficult. A Muslim friend in Indonesia claims that you can get married as a Muslim without really being a Muslim if you got some small cash to pay.

I'm not a fan of their ways of marriage. Just because they allow 4 wives sometimes, does not mean they are a perfect marriage system. I find their systems more of a mess than western systems... and western systems are a pretty big mess. What difference does it make, denying a man 2 wives or denying him 5? Denying him for other reasons. Restricting this and that. Requiring this and that. Not to mention the way they treat women to begin with.

Same marriage snake... different snake skin.

While none of these is good solution, negative impacts can be lessened.

Personally, I just want to scrap "marriage". Let them have it. Find other terms. Is that really what all this hassle is about? Who gets to say "this is my wife"?

 

[NorthernWarrior]

Good to see that I wasn't the only one thinking along these lines.

 

[sadanyagci]

Come to think of it, I think a contract with exact definitions and no husband/wife/marriage terminology would be perfect. Translate it into any needed language. They can verify the contract... and one can explain the reason for the odd contract as "because of my religion".

So lets see this legal contract and what can be done with it. :ugeek:

 

[jackson]

Another option is to get married in a country that a)doesn't require affidavits from embassies and b) isn't a country you plan to live in. Hong Kong is one example. You can apply for the license via mail and set a date. Just fly into Hong Kong, find a couple of witnesses and get married. You walk away with a marriage certificate from Hong Kong and no one outside of Hong Kong will know the marriage exists. When a situation arises when you need to show the marriage exists, all you need to do is show the marriage certificate. Singapore is possibly another option, if you have time to wait.

Another option is a country that is very loose and for the payment of bribes will look the other way in requiring affidavits.

There might be issues when someone presents 2 American passports with a Hong Kong marriage certificate. American law requires you to register your marriage with the embassy and get their license and marriage certificate.

That's incorrect and possibly old advice, but nevertheless incorrect. There is no American law requiring you to register your marriage with the US embassy. See: http://travel.state.gov/law/info/marria ... e_640.html

Some other countries, the Philippines for one, require that if two Philippine citizens are getting married then they get married at the embassy, but the US long ago abandoned that practice of Embassy marriages.

As someone who has spent the last 15 years living out of the US in various countries, the best option for someone wanting to get some semblance of legal marriage for more than one wife would be to take on those marriages in different countries that don't communicate with each other concerning civil registration. When it comes to visas, you could get a visa for one of the wives through a dependent visa and look at domestic helper visas for the other wives. There are ways around it all.

My wife is from the Philippines. Our second wife will also be from the Philippines, when it comes time to find one. These are issues we have studied.

 

[sadanyagci]

That's incorrect and possibly old advice, but nevertheless incorrect. There is no American law requiring you to register your marriage with the US embassy. See: http://travel.state.gov/law/info/marria ... e_640.html

Good to know that it's not law. I suppose I misinterpreted something I read.

Some other countries, the Philippines for one, require that if two Philippine citizens are getting married then they get married at the embassy, but the US long ago abandoned that practice of Embassy marriages.

As someone who has spent the last 15 years living out of the US in various countries, the best option for someone wanting to get some semblance of legal marriage for more than one wife would be to take on those marriages in different countries that don't communicate with each other concerning civil registration. When it comes to visas, you could get a visa for one of the wives through a dependent visa and look at domestic helper visas for the other wives. There are ways around it all.

My wife is from the Philippines. Our second wife will also be from the Philippines, when it comes time to find one. These are issues we have studied.

I'll keep this in mind. Thank you.

 

[T-C's Rebeka]

I don't like the idea of being "married by" someone........
However, I also have the issue of being in an area that doesn't acknowledge marriage except by civil authorities.
The question is, how can an American have something accepted as stating that there is a marriage, without going through the marriage license system?

Can a religious only document work in situation? T-C and I were married in church with no legal connection. (The state of the USA that we were in at the time required 'officiants' to swear to the state, etc., and the church rules did not allow for that so we were married in church but not registered with the state. The church only married church members and if you wanted to be registered you had to go to the court house and have it taken care of there because the church service wasn't valid.) The society of friends (Quakers) do not believe that someone can marry someone, that only God can and many of their groups would marry without official registration... the PM issue is something else of course.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi again,

Ok Sadan It sounds insane to me that a hospital in your country would abort a baby because the mother is not married. besides that though, How practical would it be to abort a baby who is 9 months along and the mom is in labor or perhaps even crowning? Do they practice infanticide? Say you walk into ER at 10 centimeters, do they do a D& X? Sorry, I keep askin g the same thing. Do you know someone who got their baby killed this way? Is it common knowledge? Is it written policy? I am generally curious about maternity care, not trying to spy.