My whole world just turned upside down

[Bartato]

Dear friends,

You know me well. I deeply love this community. I've been here a over a year and a half and have more than one thousand thread comments posted on this site.

That entire time, I have continually hammered the drum on one point. That point is this:

"The God of the Bible treats polygamy as marriage, not adultery or sexual immorality".

I have known about Biblical polygyny for over a decade.

I have shared/argued this point with my wife, with friends, with coworkers, with family, online, and with a whole bunch of church elders.

NO ONE ANYWHERE COULD PROVE ME WRONG!

I was right and I knew it. I tried not to care what price I had to pay, I would stand firm on, and be faithful to the word of God.

It did cost me. We were run out of one church, and have felt very disconnected from the brothers and sisters at the church we currently attend. I kept people at a distance, knowing we didn't see eye to eye on this issue.

My wife and I frequently fought. For the last eight years, my wife has been dying on the inside. I could see it, and feel it. She and I grew distant and I could see her soul in despair. Still, I clung to what the Scriptures said.

Then, last Wednesday, and Thursday, my whole world changed. Praise be to God! He opened my eyes! I saw the face and knew the heart of Jesus Christ and scales fell off eyes!

You see, I was right in saying that the Law treats polygamy as marriage, not adultery or sexual immorality, but that is only PART of the Truth.

My reasoning went like this.
1. The Bible treats polygamy as marriage
2. The Bible says marriage is good
3. Therefore I should pursue polygamy. If one wife is good, that means two or three wives are even better.
4. The fact that my wife is absolutely devastated is mainly due to cultural conditioning.

(1 and 2 are true, but 3 and 4 may not be)

I understood that patriarchy is the created order, and that polygamy can be congruent with patriarchy (while adultery and homosexuality cannot). Homosexuality and adultery are abominations, and polygamy is marriage.

Here are some truths that hit me the other day.

1. The fact that polygamy is marriage doesn't mean that I ought pursue it. The fact that it isn't adultery doesn't mean that it is wonderful. Not being "an abomination" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement from God.

2. I had made an idol of polygamy. I thought that getting more women (and through them sex and offspring)
would satisfy my soul. Women were the longing of my soul. I was acting like Jesus Christ was not enough to complete me. He wasn't enough to satisfy me. His incarnation, His perfect life, His substitutionary death, His glorious resurrection, His ascension to heaven, His present and coming reign, and His constant intercession were not enough! I needed women to complete me! I exchanged the Glory of God, and treasured created things rather than the Creator Himself!

That thought is an abomination!

Jesus Christ alone is LORD. He demands everything I have and everything I am.

3. I saw that by desiring other women I had devastated my wife! I completely failed to love her the way Christ loves the Church and gave Himself for her.

My wife is the dearest person I have ever known, and I had utterly broken her heart, a thousand times over. She is beloved of Jesus Christ, and I crushed and betrayed her. I have treated her (and other women) as "things to possess" and as "means to my ends" instead of precious souls for whom Christ died.

4. I saw that Jesus Christ (Being both fully God and fully Man) is able to perfectly love, and give His complete and undivided attention to each of us all at the same time. He is 100% mine all the time. He is also 100% yours at the exact same time. No other man is able to do this. A polygamous man cannot give himself 100% to any of his wives. He will always be divided. This is a weakness of polygamy (though polygamy is still marriage).

5. I saw that though the Law permits polygamy, I have died to the Law through the Body of Jesus Christ, and have been united to Another, united to the Son Himself (Romans 7:4). I do not live to merely keep the Law. I live to glorify Christ and enjoy Him forever.

6. I saw that God only gave one woman to Adam. I now believe that monogamy is His original intention for mankind. In the Garden of Eden, marriage was monogamous.

That doesn't mean that polygamy is adultery (God also somehow gave multiple wives to David), and blessed many polygamous men . Still, polygyny only exists in the broken fallen world after Genesis three.

I would prefer that my marriage be more Genesis 2 and less Genesis 3.

7. Jesus is making all things new. The old is passing away. He has given us New Life. I believe that polygamy is part of the old order, that which is a consequence of the fall of the first Adam, and it is fading away.

Yes, polygamy is marriage, but it seems to be a stunted and damaged form of marriage. I don't believe it is a proper thing for the believer in Christ to pursue.

The same is true of slavery.

If one is in a polygamous marriage, then look to Jesus and do your best given your situation.

If you are in a monogamous marriage, look to Jesus and delight in your one wife. Do not desire more.

I have many more things to share, but have to go now. I love you guys.

 

[frederick]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and new found convictions @Bartato.

Yes, polygamy is marriage, but it seems to be a stunted and damaged form of marriage.

This troubles me because of the implications concerning Yahweh, the God of Israel. He presents Himself as the husband of His wives, the ones He chose and took for Himself. There is nothing stunted or damaged about His choices. Shalom

 

[steve]

It is true that making polygyny an idol is hugely wrong, but I feel that you have overreacted.
I wish you well.

 

[Joleneakamama]

I appreciate very much that you have a heart for God and want to do what is right. I'm very glad that you're feeling a joy and sufficiency in your life and marriage, and a desire to be a good and loving husband to your wife.

As a wife and a mom of nine I am keenly aware of how time gets divided and limited too. I could spend an entire day with any one of my very loved family members, but then I'd miss everyone else I wasn't with.

God put it on my heart to want a sisterwife.
After 20 years of wondering if it would ever happen, it did.
Not only did it happen, it happened so beautifully that there was no fear, and no doubt. We only wanted this if it was His will, and we believe this is.

Believe me, I loved the time I had with my husband all those years, and I still love the time we get to both be together as family, or be alone, but now there are two more people here who's happiness is linked to mine. There is another beautiful soul who is part of the "us" and "our" and "we" .....and I LOVE that!!

There is another voice who's laughter makes me smile and warms my heart.

We should always be happy with the blessings we have, and thankful for what we've been given.
I don't know what God purposes for your family, or how He might change hearts, either yours or your wife's. I hope that whatever comes your way the two of you stay together through it.

True and faithful monogamy is as rare as polygyny I think. If you can do that well it is an inspiration to many.... I only hope (and believe) we can as a family keep living right, even with the social pressures that go with being even more extremely counter culture.

Thank you for sharing!!

 

[Torahobservantmmck86]

I have seen the argument used for Adam and eve for monogamy only used alot, so that must be the original intent and design. But most seem to not notice or forget that Adam was put into a deep sleep and had his wife made from his rib. They also forget the fact that in order for humans to multiply Adam and eve's children had to marry each other for humans to multiply. So for us to follow this original design we all need to wait for a rib to be taken to have a wife and then proceed to marry our children to each other if that is the case.

 

[NickF]

I agree with the above sentiments in responses brother. While I agree with a lot of what you typed, there is a lot in that message that is profoundly incorrect according to scripture.

With that said, you need to care for your current wife. If pursuing another woman is going to destroy your first wife, you need to live with her in an understanding way. I think the vast majority of men SHOULD NOT pursue polygny. You may be one of those men, and that is 100% fine. However there is nothing in scripture to indicate monogamy is the only way or the best way. Marriage is Good period, be it to one or many wives.

 

[Torahobservantmmck86]

I have seen the argument used for Adam and eve for monogamy only used alot, so that must be the original intent and design. But most seem to not notice or forget that Adam was put into a deep sleep and had his wife made from his rib. They also forget the fact that in order for humans to multiply Adam and eve's children had to marry each other for humans to multiply. So for us to follow this original design we all need to wait for a rib to be taken to have a wife and then proceed to marry our children to each other if that is the case.

Also wanted to add, sorry for my direct response. I do think it is wise to not pursue polygyny if the wife is not at peace with it. I do hope all goes well for you!

 

[Bartato]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and new found convictions @Bartato.


This troubles me because of the implications concerning Yahweh, the God of Israel. He presents Himself as the husband of His wives, the ones He chose and took for Himself. There is nothing stunted or damaged about His choices. Shalom

Perhaps I over spoke with the "stunted and damaged" comment.

Remember that I absolutely understand that God spoke of His relationship with the northern and southern kingdoms using polygamous language. I do affirm that the Bible treats polygamy as real marriage. That doesn't mean that we ought to aspire to it. I know that I no longer do, and I would not encourage another believer to do so.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Hey @Bartato , I sense that your time here may be drawing to a close, obviously that deduction didn’t take a clairvoyant to arrive at.

It’s a shame because I’ve greatly benefited from your observations and conversations. Hopefully you’ve benefited from us as well.

I suspect there’s a lot more going on than you’ve posted here and I think everyone will appreciate that. The cost of this truth can be very high, especially when a man is taking fire from all sides. A tactical withdrawal is good strategy when the time is right.

I will say this; accommodation can be a very effective route. Appeasement never works though.

 

[frederick]

I do think it is wise to not pursue polygyny if the wife is not at peace with it. I do hope all goes well for you!

In her relationship with her husband the wife pictures the church's relationship with Christ. How many of us struggle daily to be at peace with where Jesus Christ leads us and the challenges He allows us to face? How difficult is the path of life He has chosen for us to walk? How much opposition are we called to face as we stand for the absolute truth of His Word? - and that's in areas of life that have nothing to do with polygamy!

I'm not advocating trampling over a wife's concerns or feelings, but the difficulty this idea of her being at peace with everything her husband determines flies in the face of how the church should function under the rule of Jesus Christ. We don't get to decide when we are ready for Him to providentially bring the next trial into our lives; we submit to His authority over us without question. Can we ask for Him to guide us, to uphold and strengthen us in the trials of life? Most certainly! But do we get to be different from Jonah who when he tried to escape the task he'd been given and go the opposite direction, not get thrown up on the beach as three day old fish vomit? Should we expect to be able to walk away from the difficulties of life God gives us because we are not at peace about them? Wake up people, the life of the Saint in this sinful world is a war and the enemy can be from your own household. Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household" (Matt. 10:34-36). Shalom

 

[The Revolting Man]

In her relationship with her husband the wife pictures the church's relationship with Christ. How many of us struggle daily to be at peace with where Jesus Christ leads us and the challenges He allows us to face? How difficult is the path of life He has chosen for us to walk? How much opposition are we called to face as we stand for the absolute truth of His Word? - and that's in areas of life that have nothing to do with polygamy!

I'm not advocating trampling over a wife's concerns or feelings, but the difficulty this idea of her being at peace with everything her husband determines flies in the face of how the church should function under the rule of Jesus Christ. We don't get to decide when we are ready for Him to providentially bring the next trial into our lives; we submit to His authority over us without question. Can we ask for Him to guide us, to uphold and strengthen us in the trials of life? Most certainly! But do we get to be different from Jonah who when he tried to escape the task he'd been given and go the opposite direction, not get thrown up on the beach as three day old fish vomit? Should we expect to be able to walk away from the difficulties of life God gives us because we are not at peace about them? Wake up people, the life of the Saint in this sinful world is a war and the enemy can be from your own household. Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household" (Matt. 10:34-36). Shalom

You’re right but sometimes the reality is a man has to pick his battles or at least the timing and conduct of those battles. If there’s no clear path to victory then the costs add up quick.

 

[frederick]

You’re right but sometimes the reality is a man has to pick his battles or at least the timing and conduct of those battles. If there’s no clear path to victory then the costs add up quick.

I agree but I don't want to end up as three-day old fish vomit thrown up on the beach.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I agree but I don't want to end up as three-day old fish vomit thrown up on the beach.

Also true.

 

[Bartato]

I appreciate very much that you have a heart for God and want to do what is right. I'm very glad that you're feeling a joy and sufficiency in your life and marriage, and a desire to be a good and loving husband to your wife.

As a wife and a mom of nine I am keenly aware of how time gets divided and limited too. I could spend an entire day with any one of my very loved family members, but then I'd miss everyone else I wasn't with.

God put it on my heart to want a sisterwife.
After 20 years of wondering if it would ever happen, it did.
Not only did it happen, it happened so beautifully that there was no fear, and no doubt. We only wanted this if it was His will, and we believe this is.

Believe me, I loved the time I had with my husband all those years, and I still love the time we get to both be together as family, or be alone, but now there are two more people here who's happiness is linked to mine. There is another beautiful soul who is part of the "us" and "our" and "we" .....and I LOVE that!!

There is another voice who's laughter makes me smile and warms my heart.

We should always be happy with the blessings we have, and thankful for what we've been given.
I don't know what God purposes for your family, or how He might change hearts, either yours or your wife's. I hope that whatever comes your way the two of you stay together through it.

True and faithful monogamy is as rare as polygyny I think. If you can do that well it is an inspiration to many.... I only hope (and believe) we can as a family keep living right, even with the social pressures that go with being even more extremely counter culture.

Thank you for sharing!!

I appreciate your insights. I know that my desire for additional wives flowed from a sense of lack, that it was idolatrous, and that it really harmed my wife. I know that being filled with the love and joy of Christ took away my desire for additional women, and has greatly increased my love fory wife.

I think each Christian has to examine their own hearts. Your husband may well be a far better and more capable man than I.

Polygyny is not for me, and I won't advise it.

Whatever the case, I believe that your husband and sister wife are married. I pray that the Lord will make her a blessing to you all, and that He will make you all a blessing to her. I do believe it possible to live a Spirit filled Christian life in a polygynous marital situation. May the Lord make her fruitful like Leah and Rachel who built up the household of Jacob, and may the love of Christ fill your home.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and new found convictions @Bartato.


This troubles me because of the implications concerning Yahweh, the God of Israel. He presents Himself as the husband of His wives, the ones He chose and took for Himself. There is nothing stunted or damaged about His choices. Shalom

Amen, Israel was formed from Polygyny.

 

[AbrahamSolomon]

I have seen the argument used for Adam and eve for monogamy only used alot, so that must be the original intent and design. But most seem to not notice or forget that Adam was put into a deep sleep and had his wife made from his rib. They also forget the fact that in order for humans to multiply Adam and eve's children had to marry each other for humans to multiply. So for us to follow this original design we all need to wait for a rib to be taken to have a wife and then proceed to marry our children to each other if that is the case.

100% Agree!

 

[FollowingHim]

Honestly @Bartato, I read the first half of your message post and absolutely loved it - you're saying things that I really wish more men would realise. You've just taken it too far towards the end.

2. I had made an idol of polygamy. I thought that getting more women (and through them sex and offspring)
would satisfy my soul. Women were the longing of my soul. I was acting like Jesus Christ was not enough to complete me. He wasn't enough to satisfy me. His incarnation, His perfect life, His substitutionary death, His glorious resurrection, His ascension to heaven, His present and coming reign, and His constant intercession were not enough! I needed women to complete me! I exchanged the Glory of God, and treasured created things rather than the Creator Himself!

I do think that this is a very real problem for many men. They discover polygamy is permissible, and leap from that into pursuing it, hunting for another wife or more under their own strength, regardless of the harm to their existing wife and others in their lives. This can most certainly be an idol - and it's an attractive one, because it involves sex. Idolatry has always been associated with sex - that's why pagan worship involved prostitutes. This is a weakness Satan is very good at exploiting, to turn men away from God and towards their own desires.

But monogamy can be an idol in the same way. How many men pursue woman after woman and get themselves into lots of trouble, without ever once being polygamous? Obviously, far, far more. Most people are susceptible to Satan's wiles and can be easily dragged into a life of lust.

But there are a few men who are really focussed on God. They know this is wrong. They genuinely want to follow Him. They're far harder for Satan to target with loose women - they won't fall for it. He has to be far more cunning - and polygamy can give him the opening he is looking for, to take this desire for lots of sex with different women, which the Godly man resists, and give it a veneer of holiness, allowing him to capture this man in the same net.

Satan is a cunning devil, and both monogamy and polygamy are tools he twists to his own ends. That does not, however, mean that either are inherently idolatrous - just that either can be made into idols.

I saw that God only gave one woman to Adam. I now believe that monogamy is His original intention for mankind. In the Garden of Eden, marriage was monogamous.

That doesn't mean that polygamy is adultery (God also somehow gave multiple wives to David), and blessed many polygamous men . Still, polygyny only exists in the broken fallen world after Genesis three.

This may or may not be true. An argument can be made in either direction. I don't think it's a profitable topic to argue over - regardless of whether polygamy was God's original plan or whether it was a result of the fall, we live in a post-fall world and polygamy exists. If polygamy was permitted by God as a result of the fall - then he permitted it because he needed to, because it was necessary in some situations to deal with the results of the fall.

In other words, this would mean it is even more necessary in our world today than if it was the original plan! God's original plan was for a pre-fall, perfect world. And we don't live in such a world.

God's original, ideal plan was for no widows to ever remarry (with no death, there would be no widows), and for no child to ever be adopted (with no death, there would be no orphans). Remarriage and adoption are consequences of the fall. Does that mean that a widow should remain single, and not remarry, because remarriage was not in God's original plan? Does it mean orphans should be abandoned and expected to fend for themselves? Of course not. In the real world of today, death occurs, leaving widows and orphans, and God has given us ways of dealing with them. Far from being told not to do either of these, remarriage and care of orphans is positively encouraged, even mandated in some circumstances.

So even if we assume that God's original plan for a perfect world was monogamy - that is not relevant to today. And if we religiously try to follow an obsolete plan, we may fail to see God's plan for our lives today. We must recognise God's plan for the world today - a fallen, broken world - and be God's lights in that broken world, His hands to heal that world.

We cannot abandon orphans because they didn't exist pre-fall. Nor can we abandon widows because they didn't exist pre-fall.

Should we abandon excess single women, who cannot marry because of the demographics of a fallen world, just because they too did not exist pre-fall?

 

[frederick]

God's original, ideal plan was for no widows to ever remarry (with no death, there would be no widows), and for no child to ever be adopted (with no death, there would be no orphans). Remarriage and adoption are consequences of the fall. Does that mean that a widow should remain single, and not remarry, because remarriage was not in God's original plan? Does it mean orphans should be abandoned and expected to fend for themselves? Of course not. In the real world of today, death occurs, leaving widows and orphans, and God has given us ways of dealing with them. Far from being told not to do either of these, remarriage and care of orphans is positively encouraged, even mandated in some circumstances.

So even if we assume that God's original plan for a perfect world was monogamy - that is not relevant to today. And if we religiously try to follow an obsolete plan, we may fail to see God's plan for our lives today. We must recognise God's plan for the world today - a fallen, broken world - and be God's lights in that broken world, His hands to heal that world.

We cannot abandon orphans because they didn't exist pre-fall. Nor can we abandon widows because they didn't exist pre-fall.

Should we abandon excess single women, who cannot marry because of the demographics of a fallen world, just because they too did not exist pre-fall?

This wisdom is priceless. Thank you for so clearly articulating things I hadn't even considered saying but totally agree with.

 

[frederick]

That doesn't mean that we ought to aspire to it. I know that I no longer do, and I would not encourage another believer to do so.

Writing in response to a question about celibacy, Paul wrote saying, But because of sexual immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband (1 Cor. 7:2). It's not a case of aspiring to be polygamous rather it is dealing with the necessary reality. There are so many single women in the churches, not just here but around the world, and I know of women who are resigned to never being married and having a family. They are sad and wonder what they have done wrong to be missing out on this aspect of the Christian woman's life. It is written, "Therefore, I want younger women to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no opportunity for reviling (1 Tim. 5:14). Older women are to teach younger women love their husbands, love their children (Titus 2:4).

The Christian mindset is so far removed from God's purposes and provisions for His people. There is absolutely no reason for this situation except people reject what God says and follow the traditions of men.

 

[steve]

Should we abandon excess single women, who cannot marry because of the demographics of a fallen world, just because they too did not exist pre-fall?

Expanding this, Yah’s pattern/plan was for every woman to be covered, which is impossible without polygyny.