Our Need to Study and Learn from Others

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

C.H. Spurgeon was one of the best preachers and teachers of his day.

He once said in regard to the value of reading: ""The man who never reads will never be read; he who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains, proves that he has no brains of his own." -- Charles Spurgeon

So very true. Pride can bite us in many different ways. One of those ways is when we believe that we do not need others to help us to think, learn, and grow in our walk with Christ (see Eph. 4:11-12). It is the antithesis of being a disciple and an afront to the methodological plan of Christ's Great Commission.

 

[porkchop]

So true. Thanks.

 

[steve]

true, and i learn a lot about what not to think by reading other peoples positions.

quoting them? i'm kinda partial to quoting my savior and his Father more than my fellow earth-treaders.

my high school science teacher once told a story about back when he was young and knew it all. in it he and his friends would get together and "we all sat around and shared our ignorance."

if Yeshua would come down and anoint just one school of thought, i would be happy with it. but he did not so it is up to each of us individually to sort the wheat from the chaff. do not expect us to wholesale sign on to beliefs that you have proven to yourself to be true. Yeshua is at the head pf this parade and wants to lead ALL of us into all truth. let him lead each of us at our own speed. the greatest hiderance to truth is someone who knows it all but is wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry Steve, while I understand where you are coming from here, our Lord did take care of the very thing you disavow.

Eph 4:10-16
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

His purpose and His means are clearly defined here. This whole passage is so rich in purpose. I definitely agree with the importance of individual believers finding and following the Holy Spirit's leadership in our life, but we are obligated by our Lord to honor the purpose and form of His divine structure. Structure and individual seeking God's leadership ought not to be conflicting, but complimentary and mutual supporting.

 

[steve]

john,
you have just made my point.
there are many different pastors with varying opinions. call us sheep if you want to, but we must individualy decide what to keep and what to pitch.
i do not think that you would advocate that we just choose a denomination (even that would require discernment on the individuals part) and believe what that denomination teaches. or choose a pastor and believe what that pastor teaches.
many do just that though, they trust what has been handed down in the succession of that particular group rather than what our Lord might want to teach them.
most of us with the polygeny understanding have been led to this understanding in spite of what our pastors tried to teach us, so i would think that you are going to not find a lot of people on this board that are willing to non-critically follow what a man might teach.
it has been my observation that one man, pastor if you will, is very strong and solid in one or more aspects, but may be weaker in others where another is strong.
it is up to us individually to pick out the wheat and ignore the chaff, spoiled wheat, pebbles, and other junk.
no one has the right to say, "i am sent from G-d and should be 100% trusted."

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

It is a good idea to listen to multiple ideas in case there is something one has not thought of but one ought to examine whether or not the ideas are true afterwards.

Also many Christians say the Quran is not true without having read any of the Quran.

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 NIV 2010

They should test to see if it is true or false if they believe 1 Thessalonians 5

There is no problem with concluding that the Quran for instance is false after testing it, if it is indeed false.

The same may apply with the ideas of Mary Baker Edy, Joseph Smith etc. (If Mary Baker Edy's writings would be classified as prophecies)

If for instance one reads the book of Abraham and then reads the scrolls it was allegedly translated from and finds it was not anywhere close to being correctly translated from Egyptian then....

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

no one has the right to say, "i am sent from G-d and should be 100% trusted."

If they do that is when you can have real fun

Just wait tell they say something they later regret saying, and .... act like that was 100% trustworthy

 

[Anonymous]

Steve said,
"john,
you have just made my point.
there are many different pastors with varying opinions. call us sheep if you want to, but we must individualy decide what to keep and what to pitch."

I don't want to make your point, I want to make mine. :lol: Let me try again. I am not suggesting that pastors and teachers are infallible or are more spiritual, but they are God's tools,designed by Him for His purposes.

Also the pastor/flock relationship is a very precise replica of the shepherd/sheep relationship. There is a mutual survival reliance by each. The flock of sheep are led to pasture, water and shelter by the shepherd. They rely on him, they have no means of defense but his leadership. The shepherd gets his clothing, food and income from the flock. No perfect shepherds, no perfect sheep, just a perfect God with a perfect plan. Any pastor worth his salt, sincerely covets the prayers and concern of his people. He will also sincerely seek the mind of God and leadership of God the Holy spirit through His Word.
Granted, there are many men and women in the pulpits in this country that are not faithful shepherds, but that is no reason to throw out God's program.

 

[Anonymous]

There is no problem with concluding that the Quran for instance is false after testing it, if it is indeed false.

The Qur'an is the holy book for a religion that denies that Jesus was the promised Messiah. What more do I need to know about it?
Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Tali]

I think we would all agree that pride is dreadful and dangerous, people need to be teachable, pastors and all of the ascension gifts are part of what Yeshua purchased and gave when He died for us, and that the only reason that the Quran has a smackerel of truth is because it is in part pirated from the Torah.

From my understanding, the current problem re: the healthy role of pastors was conceived when the church fathers decided what to include in the canon of scripture, and they threw out the functional need of two crucial ascension gifts, ie apostles and prophets. They also began to teach that God basically doesn't do anything any more, so giving gifts to His people "severally as he willed" was relegated to everything that happened before the end of the 3rd century. "We have the book, now we're set," has been the prevailing attitude, and the true, healthy, empowering and confronting impact of prophets and apostles upon pastors was lost.

The result is a church system that is pastor-centric, if I may coin a term, and solid believers are fleeing the present church system in droves, not because they are prideful, offended, wrongfully independent or unteachable, but because the present system is dying and about to undergo a complete overhaul. It has to, if we are to grow into the perfect man of Ephesians.

Pastors are a gift, absolutely. I have known and ministered with some fine ones with God's heart, as well as excellence in both the Word and the Spirit.
I pray for anyone currently in the pastorate because of the personal and professional upheaval which will come when God scrapes the pastoral overlay off the foundation of the apostles and prophets and builds His last day church.

Once that happens, the gift of pastors will be fully functioning as designed, as will that of evangelists,teachers, prophets and apostles. Yeshua WILL have a glorious bride, without spot or wrinkle, and she'll be as terrible as an army with banners, striking fear in the heart of the defeated one.

May God give us all the grace to endure His intense process of purification and preparation that we may be a part of His heart's desire, and fruitful in the last great harvest.

 

[Anonymous]

Alit53 said, From my understanding, the current problem re: the healthy role of pastors was conceived when the church fathers decided what to include in the canon of scripture, and they threw out the functional need of two crucial ascension gifts, ie apostles and prophets. They also began to teach that God basically doesn't do anything any more, so giving gifts to His people "severally as he willed" was relegated to everything that happened before the end of the 3rd century. "We have the book, now we're set," has been the prevailing attitude, and the true, healthy, empowering and confronting impact of prophets and apostles upon pastors was lost.

Ali, I fear I may not be communicating well if you think this is the probrem I saw. The problem as I wrote, is the seemingly total disregard among so many believers of the genuine gifts of God to the churches, of pastor/teachers. I am not disenfranchising any other of God's gifts to churches or individuals. There seems to be a tendency in the posts frequently seen on this forum to throw out all leadership just because there is some bad leadership. When there is a propensity among professing believers in God the Son, to reject spiritual leadership, duly created by God and revealed in His Word we are left in genuine rebellion against God. No matter how nicely we wrap it in scriptural terms, it is still rebellion against God, His Word and His program. The Word of God says "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." I Samuel 15:23

I do believe the basis of the problem, besides pride that we all struggle with is the matter of determining how things got to where they are now. In the above quote, you attributed major changes to "church fathers" who denied God's people the effectiveness of God the Holy Spirit working through them to accomplish His will and purposes. The God that I serve, who redeemed me from the penalty and bondage of sin and made me a partaker of His divine nature and is even know maintaining a place for me in heaven is not limited by a group of frocked priests that chatter as blackbirds on a line. He is greater than that. I stand by my conviction that the catholic church is not right and has never been right and has never spoken for the God of Heaven.
God's people, real ones have always been a minority in this world and always will be. To assume that the reformation reclaimed or purified "the church" is essentially using the same doctrine of reclamation that Joseph Smith did when he established Mormonism. Is our Lord really capable of keeping His Word? Jesus said, "That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18. Did the gates of hell prevail, that is did genuine christian truth and churches as built by Christ and the apostles die out or did Jesus keep His Word? Our spiritual heritage has never had anything to do with catholicism except to avoid them as persecutors. Our ancestors avoided the disciples of Calvin and Luther just as cautiously, because both groups practiced capital punishment upon those who dissented from their doctrinal beliefs. The "reformers" were just that, reformers and corrupt, ungodliness cannot be reformed. They did not get far enough from Rome to be good, they still practice confirmation and baptism for the new birth, baptising infants and supplanting the Word of God by ecclesiastical authority.

The "Problem" mentioned at the beginning is not with God's design, but with our understanding of what it is supposed to be like and our understanding of where we came from. Just as an adoptee, as a teen or adult is often plagued by questions of origin and belonging, so are believers today greatly unsettled by our confusion of origin. We are not Jewish, we are not catholic and we are not gentiles. We are a peculiar people, called out by God, out of this world system, religions and ethnicity to be the people of God, His family on earth assembled in churches until we are gathered as one in Heaven around the throne where we will then be "THE CHURCH", presented as His Bride, (without spot, wrinkle, blemish or any such thing) before The Father of us all.

 

[Tali]

John

Your post is thoughtful and I want to respond, but will be away from a computer for several days, so please be patient. I am wondering if what is really surfacing is rebellion, or more of what Martin Luther encountered, ie abusive, heavy handed, controlling authority? People are disgruntled with church-and-pastors-as-usual, but is it possible that pastors need to ask Yeshua if they are missing something? Or, as is often the complaint, "Am I using the flock to build my own ministry?"

I agree that we need to continue to escape from the Catholic system, and there are vestiges of thought and action that we are not aware of that still plague us.

I am curious, what role do you believe prophets and apostles have in the 21st century church, and more specifically, what is their relationship to pastors?

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Ali and/or Steve, I have several questions that I am curious in regard to your discussion with Pastor John to how you would respond in light of the apostleship comments. My set of questions are as follows:

1. Are you aware of, or do you see two or so distinct definitions for the term apostle from the original language?

2. If not would you mind defining the term apostle so we can see how you are defining your term?

3. Furthermore, do you think a "modern" apostle can speak a word that has the same weight of authority as say the apostles who wrote the NC writings after Christ's ascension? In other words, can a "modern" apostle in your view be given revelation and/or authority that is as equal in standing and authority to the words as given in the biblical books commonly called the NC scriptures?

4. Lastly, with multiple questions concerning thoughts from the actual writings of Pentecostal and Charismatic thinkers, what do you think about the fact that none of the major leaders in church history until the 1900's ever applied to themselves the term apostle? Clement of Rome, a disciple of Paul, Polycarp, Ignatius, who all three led not only one church but led multiple churches at various times, then Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Beza, Whitfield, Wesley, Edwards, and onward up until the 1900's never used the term apostle for themselves though they certainly founded new works and led over multiple people and other pastor/elders. How would you respond to Dr. Wayne Grudem, who himself affirms all of the spiritual gifts are for today and is one of the most well known Evangelical writers in the field of biblical prophecy and the fivefold offices/gifts of the church, who has said, "Though some may use the word apostle in English today to refer to very effective church planters or evangelists, it seems inappropriate and unhelpful to do so, for it simply confuses people who read the NT and see the high authority that is attributed to the office of apostle there. It is noteworthy that no major leader in the history of the church--not Athanasius, or Augustine, not Luther or Calvin, not Wesley or Whitfield--has taken to himself the title of apostle or let himself be called an apostle. If any in modern times want to take the title "apostle" to themselves, they immediately raise the suspicion that they may be motivated by inappropriate pride and desires for self-exaltation, along with excessive ambition and a desire for much more authority in the church than one person should rightfully have" (An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, p. 911). How would you respond to Grudem, a fellow theologian who endorses all of the gifts are for today, who yet sees a distinction in what would qualify one for the office of apostleship? Or even with Dr. Gordon D. Fee, a world renown and highly respected Pentecostal scholar who has written the most and largest volumes on the Spirit in the history of Christendom (God's Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul, a 1,000 page volume covering every text on the Spirit) who also says that there is no "evidence that Paul thought of a local church as having some in it called apostles, who were responsible for its affairs" (1 Corinthians Commentary, p. 620)? In other words, he saw the role of apostles as not one of remaining in the churches to govern once planted but as those who went out working to organize and or plant new works but not staying in them as above and over the elders. And how would you respond to a Dr. J. Rodman Williams, a Ph.D Charismatic scholar from Columbia University, who says any terminology set forth today of a modern apostle must keep the lines clear that "he does not have the authority of a foundational apostle nor are his words equally inspired" (Renewal Theology: Systematic Theology from a Charismatic Perspective, Vol. 3, p. 170)? How would you respond to these views as a representation of solid pentecostal and charismatic biblical scholarship?

I am not pressing a view here but would like to see how you interact with what most consider to be some of the most faithful scholars on those subjects from within the actual Charismatic and Pentecostal fields of theological thought. Do you differ with them, agree with them, or have any support of a better view from any other theologians beyond your own views on these matters?

 

[steve]

wow john, i have never seen such a brutally honest portrayal of what some believe about the pastor/flock relationship. the we/they mentality is incredible.

Also the pastor/flock relationship is a very precise replica of the shepherd/sheep relationship.

a very precise replica? i do not think that you have thought those words through very well. the shepherd is intelligent, walks on two legs, is omnivorous while the sheep are dumb animals that walk on all fours and eat grass?

There is a mutual survival reliance by each.

no, while it it true that the shepherd has no livelihood w/out a flock, the sheep are not at all bereft w/out the shepherd.
let me modify that statement; Yeshua is the true shepherd, we WOULD be bereft w/out him. the ones that we are talking about are all undershepherds who, in my opinion, are trying to elbow each other out of the way in order to be the pre-eminent undershepherd for an individual sheep. sorry, but they are extremely replaceable and this goes to my earlier statements about each persons responsibility to wisely choose where they eat and what they eat. us lil sheepies are surrounded by undershepherds who vie for the ownership of us and want us to only eat in their pasture.

The flock of sheep are led to pasture, water and shelter by the shepherd.

in a closed society where the people were illiterate and could not read the bible, could not hear from anyone from outside of the group, and were taught that the only person in communication with the Almighty was the shepherd that might be true. i would hope that you are not that kind of pastor. you might want to reread the original post on this thread as it talks about learning from ones who are not who we are presently under.

They rely on him, they have no means of defense but his leadership.

wow, we really have some ownership issues here. but i know that you do not actually mean what you have written, or we would have to pray to our pastors and it would be useless to pray for each other.

The shepherd gets his clothing, food and income from the flock.

ok;
clothing. yes, the sheep do get sheared quite regularly
food. hmm, very precise replica aint agonna work here. you cannot butcher any of your flock. milking them, aww why not?
income. well, a shepherd sells some of his sheep if he is the owner. otherwise the owner pays him for caring for them, sometimes by giving him ownership of selected ones. the analogy is not working too well here.

the shepherd/flock thing is a metaphor. it is an over-simplification that you cannot build doctrine from.
and what keeps a sheep down all fours on the ground? do any of them start growing upright and grow opposable thumbs so that they can grasp the rod to lead a flock of their own?
or is it by going off to seminary where they are magically transformed and exit with a 'gasp, shudder' sheepskin? (maybe the one that they were wearing when they crawled into the place? )

i am sorry, but you are extrapolating waaaay to much from the metaphor.
actually, you are describing much more of an old testament priesthood.

i think that what has gotten lost nowdays is the difference between teaching and indoctrination. most of what passes for teaching is actually indoctrination.
good teaching shows the student how to learn and grow, coming to an understanding of the subject rather than teaching them what to think.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

wow john, i have never seen such a brutally honest portrayal of what some believe about the pastor/flock relationship. the we/they mentality is incredible

4 This is what the LORD my God says: “Shepherd the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, ‘Praise the LORD, I am rich!’ Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land,” declares the LORD. “I will give everyone into the hands of their neighbors and their king. They will devastate the land, and I will not rescue anyone from their hands.”

7 So I shepherded the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I shepherded the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.

The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the LORD.

14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel.

15 Then the LORD said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.

17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered,
his right eye totally blinded!”
Zechariah 11:4-17 NIV 2010

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

7 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

17 “‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.

25 “‘I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of savage beasts so that they may live in the wilderness and sleep in the forests in safety. 26 I will make them and the places surrounding my hill a blessing.[a] I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. 27 The trees will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid. 29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations. 30 Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them and that they, the Israelites, are my people, declares the Sovereign LORD. 31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”

Footnotes:

[a]. Ezekiel 34:26 Or I will cause them and the places surrounding my hill to be named in blessings (see Gen. 48:20); or I will cause them and the places surrounding my hill to be seen as blessed
Ezekiel 34 NIV 2010

 

[SeekingGrace]

I totally understand the need for having a teachable spirit, but based on my personal experience the pastors and teachers in my life have always mocked the holy spirit's work ...speaking in "heavenly" languages isn't supposed to happen, prophecy is over and done with, and the bible is all we need , basically that God does not deal directly with individuals anymore because He does not have to! What a bunch of lies. The bible is very important, but would be meaningless without the Holy Spirit to teach and guide me.

 

[Anonymous]

based on my personal experience the pastors and teachers in my life have always mocked the holy spirit's work ...speaking in "heavenly" languages isn't supposed to happen, prophecy is over and done with, and the bible is all we need , basically that God does not deal directly with individuals anymore because He does not have to! What a bunch of lies.

Interestingly, my personal experience has been the opposite. I've only had one pastor come against the gifts of the Spirit. For the most part, the pastors in my life have been quite good.

The bible is very important, but would be meaningless without the Holy Spirit to teach and guide me.

Very true for all of us !

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Anonymous]

Alit53 asked, I am curious, what role do you believe prophets and apostles have in the 21st century church, and more specifically, what is their relationship to pastors?

I am happy to share my view on this question. It is a matter that has been of concern for me for a long time. Modern churchianity has confused a lot of terms among which are, apostle, prophet, pastor/teacher, evangelist and missionary.
Apostle = modern day church planter and missionary.
Prophet = preacher, exhorter.
Pastor/teacher = bishop, elder, under shepherd, those that have the rule over you (Hebrews 13).
Evangelist = missionary.

I do not believe that any of the people given by the Lord to the churches that are listed above, have authority equal to or superceding the Bible. I also do not believe that apostles and prophets have authority in the churches exceeding the pastor/congregation as they seek the headship of Christ. I do believe that apostles and prophets are co-laborers with pastor/teachers, but their field of endeavor is more in ministry to the lost, while pastor/teacher is a ministry to the church.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Alit53 asked, I am curious, what role do you believe prophets and apostles have in the 21st century church, and more specifically, what is their relationship to pastors?

I am happy to share my view on this question. It is a matter that has been of concern for me for a long time. Modern churchianity has confused a lot of terms among which are, apostle, prophet, pastor/teacher, evangelist and missionary.
Apostle = modern day church planter and missionary.
Prophet = preacher, exhorter.
Pastor/teacher = bishop, elder, under shepherd, those that have the rule over you (Hebrews 13).
Evangelist = missionary.

I do not believe that any of the people given by the Lord to the churches that are listed above, have authority equal to or superceding the Bible. I also do not believe that apostles and prophets have authority in the churches exceeding the pastor/congregation as they seek the headship of Christ. I do believe that apostles and prophets are co-laborers with pastor/teachers, but their field of endeavor is more in ministry to the lost, while pastor/teacher is a ministry to the church.

What might be an apostle? I wish I knew Greek better to know for sure. But I noticed a word that sounds like apostle is in John 1:6 even though they do not write apostle in most English translations of John 1:6. I almost wonder if there is a conspiracy to use the word apostle in some places and plain English words like sent in other places, in order to create a mis-perception of what an apostle originally was, and or based on translators priori assumptions. For instance the idea that only "the twelve" and the Apostle Paul were Apostles might be a serious misunderstanding of the use of the word in the Bible due to this cover up. That or it is just my idea due to a lack of proper Greek understanding at the present time that I posted this.

Καθημένου δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τοῦ βήματος ἀπέστειλεν πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ λέγουσα Μηδὲν σοὶ καὶ τῷ δικαίῳ ἐκείνῳ πολλὰ γὰρ ἔπαθον σήμερον κατ᾽ ὄναρ δι᾽ αὐτόν

When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Mathew 27:19

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/19

Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης

There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. John 1:6 KJV

What word was used for "sent" in John 1:6 and Mathew 27:19?

English (KJV) Strong's Root Form (Greek)
sent g649 ἀποστέλλω apostellō

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/6

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... G649&t=KJV

ἀποστέλλω

1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed

2) to send away, dismiss

a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty

b) to order one to depart, send off

c) to drive away

 

[Anonymous]

Steve wrote, i think that what has gotten lost nowdays is the difference between teaching and indoctrination. most of what passes for teaching is actually indoctrination.
good teaching shows the student how to learn and grow, coming to an understanding of the subject rather than teaching them what to think.

Steve, I respectfully disagree, teaching is indoctrination, however if you mean something akin to brainwashing, I would agree that brainwashing is wrong, but indoctrination is exactly what pastor/teachers are gifted to do. Doctrine received a bad rep in the 60's when rebellion against the establishment was rampant (any establishment was suspect), but doctrine simply means teaching.

Steve wrote, wow john, i have never seen such a brutally honest portrayal of what some believe about the pastor/flock relationship. the we/they mentality is incredible.

Steve, the operative words here are "some believe", unfortunately for the ultra community minded, the we/they situation does exist, is not condemned or critcized in the Bible and is demonstrated by the apostles and pastors in the NT. Even the requirements for the bishops/pastors and deacons in Timothy and Titus bear this out.

Steve wrote, a very precise replica? i do not think that you have thought those words through very well. the shepherd is intelligent, walks on two legs, is omnivorous while the sheep are dumb animals that walk on all fours and eat grass?

Yes, a very precise replica. Sheep are among, if not, the dumbest of domesticated animals. If they did not have a person caring for them, they would not survive for long and certainly would not flourish. I did not come up with the shepherd/sheep analogy, God did. He calls us the sheep of His pasture, yes we are as dumb as sheep and need His Holy Spirit to sustain us. If we were not so sheeplike God's people wouldn't be fleeced as we are by so many of the money grubbers we see on TV as "Pastors", they abound and thrive. Somehow in His infinite wisdom, God designed churches and pastor/people relationships. Remember pastors are just sheep that have been given a particular job to do. Pastors are not superior to the flock in any way and have no authority but that given by God in His Word.

Steve wrote, us lil sheepies are surrounded by undershepherds who vie for the ownership of us and want us to only eat in their pasture.

Not every man that stands in a pulpit has a shepherds heart. I am so sorry that you have met so many that don't and missed the multitude that do humbly and sacrificially look after God's sheep.

Steve wrote,in a closed society where the people were illiterate and could not read the bible, could not hear from anyone from outside of the group, and were taught that the only person in communication with the Almighty was the shepherd that might be true. i would hope that you are not that kind of pastor. you might want to reread the original post on this thread as it talks about learning from ones who are not who we are presently under.

I don't know of a time in the history of God dealing with His people where this scenario was true. Catholicism doesn't count, because it is not of God. No, I am not that kind of pastor. I and most of the pastors I have had the priviledge of knowing, invest ourselves in the effort of getting God's people to read and study their Bible and commune with the Lord in prayer and meditation. But, working with sheep is hard.

Steve wrote, wow, we really have some ownership issues here. but i know that you do not actually mean what you have written, or we would have to pray to our pastors and it would be useless to pray for each other.

No ownership issues here, just an incorrect assumption. Refer to the above about how helpless and defenseless sheep are. Remember the Lord's own references about shepherds defending the flock (both ovine and human).

Steve wrote, ok;
clothing. yes, the sheep do get sheared quite regularly
food. hmm, very precise replica aint agonna work here. you cannot butcher any of your flock. milking them, aww why not?
income. well, a shepherd sells some of his sheep if he is the owner. otherwise the owner pays him for caring for them, sometimes by giving him ownership of selected ones. the analogy is not working too well here.

the shepherd/flock thing is a metaphor. it is an over-simplification that you cannot build doctrine from.
and what keeps a sheep down all fours on the ground? do any of them start growing upright and grow opposable thumbs so that they can grasp the rod to lead a flock of their own?
or is it by going off to seminary where they are magically transformed and exit with a 'gasp, shudder' sheepskin? (maybe the one that they were wearing when they crawled into the place? )

i am sorry, but you are extrapolating waaaay to much from the metaphor.
actually, you are describing much more of an old testament priesthood.

Paul quoted the Law that says, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn, does God care for the oxen or does He say it for our sakes? Also he told Timothy that no man goeth to a warfare at his own charges. Also, that the husbandman must first be partaker of the crop, and the laborer is worthy of his hire. Even Paul said that the only reason the church at Corinth was inferior to any other church was that he had not taken support from them, but robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve in Corinth. The only authority and power that makes a man qualified to be a pastor/teacher is the calling and gifting of the Holy Spirit, otherwise we are all sheep by nature, in God's flock. The refernce to the sheepskin is a cheap shot that I must ignore.