• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Please stop

The Revolting Man

The Revolting Man

Moderator
Staff member
Real Person
Male
We’ve done it again. We’ve fractured back in to our theological camps and are hurting the ministry and it’s relatively narrow focus.

This is not a Torah/non-Torah fight club. Yes, Torah types get a lot right but we don’t get everything right. On top of that I have NEVER seen anyone debated into keeping Torah, not once and I’ve been a part of bringing more people into Torah keeping than most of you. It is a calling and if someone doesn’t feel/heed that call then nothing you say is going to change that.

So here’s my ask: no more, just drop it. No comments, no asides, no passive aggressive mean girl shit, no debating Torah keeping. That’s not what this miniseries about. Go start your own ministry if that’s what your focus is. It’s a noble goal but it’s not this ministry’s goal.

Women can post their recipes without sparking a debate about what is or is not food. Someone can talk about their church without having to get into the intricacies of sun god worship in the Bronze Age. Just let it go. You’re supposedly the mature, knowledgeable, fully formed follower of Christ. So act like it.

I love these debates as more than anyone, I love any debate more than anyone. Look back through the forum and you’ll see me in the middle of all them. But we can damage the BibFam community if we’re not careful and this is the only fellowship many of us have.

So please, swallow your pride. Let some of the perceived slights pass and let’s focus on promoting a Biblical view on families. I believe that view points people towards Torah anyway.
 
Thank you, Jack and TRM. I am not (at this point) Torah observant, but I have been challenged and convicted far more by pete, PeteR and TRM in their gentle speech and respectful conduct than I have been by any amount of argument that I have read in this forum (or anywhere else). MarkC has corresponded with me on numerous points on which we do not entirely agree. Ultimately, we all must lead our houses in obedience to the LORD. In my experience, living a life that is centered on the leadership and direction of the husband and father in obedience to the LORD is not only painfully counter-cultural, but also not an overnight transformation. Many of us find enemies within our own families as well as social alienation outside. We do not need the enmity here. If we do not find allies in our pilgrimage to faithfulness here, then where will we find them? I am grateful that a number of faithful Torah Observant brothers have been patient with my questions and doubts. I am equally grateful that they accept my present convictions and understanding even if they do not agree. They trust that the LORD will lead me as He intends. I have been blessed by their friendship, and ask the LORD to bless them in return. Thank you, gentlemen.
 
The Revolting Man said:
only fellowship many of us have.
Click to expand...

This line jumped out at me, and I've been thinking about it.

I'm sure it is true for some.

It is a very sad fact, and shouldn't be the case. Believers need the support, encouragement, and correction of others.
I am thankful for the brothers and sisters here at BF. I appreciate the help and encouragement you have provided me. I have benefited, and I hope to edify you as well. We have a wonderful Lord and Savior in Jesus Christ, and an all Powerful and Loving Father in Heaven. His children should love each other and work together.

Fellowship shouldn't just be online. I am blessed to also have local fellowship, and hope all of you find it as well.

True fellowship is hard to find, even for those who don't hold particularly unpopular views (like patriarchy and polygyny).

Many of us have been cast off and rejected (to differing degrees) for holding unpopular but Biblically faithful views.

Those who actually practice polygyny suffer far greater ostracism than those who (like myself) merely point out that the Bible allows it.

This is a great failing and sin on the part of churches, pastors, and people. Some of those (pastors and people) are fake cowardly unbelievers masquerading as children of God. The children of Light will never have true fellowship with them anyway. Many others (probably most) are true believers, walking in a degree of error, being ignorant, or weak and fearful. We should pray that they grow in their faith and turn from their error.

Many of us here (myself clearly included) can get defensive and argumentative at times. Some of us (myself included) might get obsessed and run off on tangents. We aren't the easiest people to love and have fellowship with.

We Christians tend to demand 100% agreement in order to have fellowship. That doesn't seem wise, as we never seem to find any brothers that agree with us 100%.

I have a degree of fellowship with the brothers and sisters at the church I attend. It isn't as close as I'd like since we don't have 100% agreement on everything. While we largely agree on our generally reformed Calvinistic Baptist understanding of the Faith, I think they are way too squishy on patriarchy (complementarians), aren't as serious about the Law as I think they should be, and totally don't get polygyny.

Still, I think most of them are true believers. I see my Master Jesus Christ reflected (very imperfectly) in them. Though they are weak and immature (I am too), I see a lot of apparently genuine faith in their lives.

I am also blessed to have a close relationship (including Christian fellowship) with my parents and brother's family. Here we have a larger gap of beliefs. They are Wesleyan-Arminian 😱, are egalitarian, even thinking that female pastors 😱😱😱 are acceptable.

They clearly don't understand patriarchy and polygyny. They are wrong about a whole bunch of stuff. On the other hand, they really do seem to hope in Christ, and love Him.

They also really love my wife and myself. They were/are good parents to me/us. They raised me to believe the Bible, to know myself a sinner, that Jesus is Savior, that I have a loving Father in Heaven, etc. My kind, gentle, loving earthly father points me towards the Father in Heaven.

They regard us as true Christians even though I believe in patriarchy, the lawfulness of polygyny, and predestination. If my Father in Heaven ever gave me a second wife, I believe they would also love and accept her.

It isn't perfect Christian fellowship, but I think it is still real.

This hunger for fellowship is something I should add to my prayer list. I pray that our existing fellowship with believers (online and real world) would deepen as God's children are gradually molded to His will. I pray that we would also gain new connections with brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
TRM, I do understand the intent of your post but I want to hear more about Torah observant practices, e.g what is food and not food and WHY. I can read with the best of them and agree that the abrasiveness wears on me and thus I visit here sporadically because of it even though I have hung around since 2011. Sharpening sometimes causes heat but sparks ruin the temper. I have visited Mark's site and seen Pete's videos and they are always food for thought. The condemnation of the PERSON versus condemnation of the POSITION should be clear. -M
 
"Fellowship" is a big word that means different things to different people, and often means different things to one person based on the context in which it is used.

What we get here at the BF discussion forum is 'validation' (you are not crazy) and 'camaraderie' (you are not alone). That feels good (when we're doing it right), but it's not really 'fellowship'.

The English word 'fellow' etymologically means 'to lay your property down [together]'. If you don't have skin in the game, you're not in fellowship. Same basic concept as 'partner' and 'partnership'. The Greek koine means 'common' in the same sense, that you have some kind of shared life and some kind of shared property or investment in that life. (I'll leave the Hebrew version of this concept to those who know more than I do.)

Cyber-fellowship has the same relationship to fellowship that phone sex or internet porn has to sex. It's not the same thing, though it may sort of scratch the same itch.

It doesn't mean what we're doing here is bad or wrong (sorry about the phone sex analogy), it's just not the real thing if you're thinking of what we do on this forum as 'fellowship'.

Two useful things we can do here on the forum, considering many of us are strangers to each other and may never meet IRL:

- Help each other through the sharing of experience and learned 'best practices' to be better leaders of our families.
- Help each other through the sharing of experience and learned 'best practices' to be better leaders in our meatspace communities.

By being better leaders in our communities, we will either find an IRL fellowship we are comfortable 'investing' in, or we will create our own through interactions with other disaffected Christ-followers who know the institutional churches and culture generally are a mess, but they're confused about the fundamental problem--a problem we represent the solution to. Happy hunting!
 
TRM can always be counted on to say the quiet part out loud (love ya, bro!), so thanks for saying it. And thanks, ABM, for your thoughtful follow up. Your take on this situation is 🎯.
 
Maddog said:
TRM, I do understand the intent of your post but I want to hear more about Torah observant practices, e.g what is food and not food and WHY. I can read with the best of them and agree that the abrasiveness wears on me and thus I visit here sporadically because of it even though I have hung around since 2011. Sharpening sometimes causes heat but sparks ruin the temper. I have visited Mark's site and seen Pete's videos and they are always food for thought. The condemnation of the PERSON versus condemnation of the POSITION should be clear. -M
Click to expand...
I understand this, as I too have found this aspect of BF valuable. At the retreats I have attended in particular I spent far more time discussing other matters than discussing marriage, as the sort of people who think deeply enough to recognise polygamy is ok also have deeply insightful takes on many other issues.

Nevertheless, this is a real problem on the forum.

The fact it is also an interesting discussion to have makes policing the argument much harder, as it makes it difficult to draw the line. As it continues to be a problem, I cannot have been policing it strictly enough.
 
andrew said:
What we get here at the BF discussion forum is 'validation' (you are not crazy) and 'camaraderie' (you are not alone). That feels good (when we're doing it right). but it's not really 'fellowship'.
Click to expand...
That was a wonderfully helpful clarification. Thank you

Phone sex produces no babies, but I think BF does produce some good fruit even if it isn't proper fellowship.
 
Bartato said:
Phone sex produces no babies, but I think BF does produce some good fruit even if it isn't proper fellowship.
Click to expand...
Okay, fair! But now we're using 'fruit' as a metaphor that covers even more territory than the various uses of 'fellowship' do. That said, I 100% agree that some very productive stuff happens here on the forum as well as at retreats!
 
ABlessedMan said:
Thank you, Jack and TRM. I am not (at this point) Torah observant, but I have been challenged and convicted far more by pete, PeteR and TRM in their gentle speech and respectful conduct than I have been by any amount of argument that I have read in this forum (or anywhere else). MarkC has corresponded with me on numerous points on which we do not entirely agree. Ultimately, we all must lead our houses in obedience to the LORD. In my experience, living a life that is centered on the leadership and direction of the husband and father in obedience to the LORD is not only painfully counter-cultural, but also not an overnight transformation. Many of us find enemies within our own families as well as social alienation outside. We do not need the enmity here. If we do not find allies in our pilgrimage to faithfulness here, then where will we find them? I am grateful that a number of faithful Torah Observant brothers have been patient with my questions and doubts. I am equally grateful that they accept my present convictions and understanding even if they do not agree. They trust that the LORD will lead me as He intends. I have been blessed by their friendship, and ask the LORD to bless them in return. Thank you, gentlemen.
Click to expand...
ABlessedMan said:
Thank you, Jack and TRM. I am not (at this point) Torah observant, but I have been challenged and convicted far more by pete, PeteR and TRM in their gentle speech and respectful conduct than I have been by any amount of argument that I have read in this forum (or anywhere else). MarkC has corresponded with me on numerous points on which we do not entirely agree. Ultimately, we all must lead our houses in obedience to the LORD. In my experience, living a life that is centered on the leadership and direction of the husband and father in obedience to the LORD is not only painfully counter-cultural, but also not an overnight transformation. Many of us find enemies within our own families as well as social alienation outside. We do not need the enmity here. If we do not find allies in our pilgrimage to faithfulness here, then where will we find them? I am grateful that a number of faithful Torah Observant brothers have been patient with my questions and doubts. I am equally grateful that they accept my present convictions and understanding even if they do not agree. They trust that the LORD will lead me as He intends. I have been blessed by their friendship, and ask the LORD to bless them in return. Thank you, gentlemen.
Click to expand...
O
Maddog said:
TRM, I do understand the intent of your post but I want to hear more about Torah observant practices, e.g what is food and not food and WHY. I can read with the best of them and agree that the abrasiveness wears on me and thus I visit here sporadically because of it even though I have hung around since 2011. Sharpening sometimes causes heat but sparks ruin the temper. I have visited Mark's site and seen Pete's videos and they are always food for thought. The condemnation of the PERSON versus condemnation of the POSITION should be clear. -M
Click to expand...
Certainly here is great value in encountering new ideas and testing them out in the crucible of verbal sparring. But we haven’t been able to remember that we’re sparring PARTNERS. We’re supposed to be jousting to make each other stronger, not tear each other apart. Lately we’ve been drawing too much blood. And admittedly I’ve been a part of it. I love a good fight.

Our people are the most precious resources we have though. We have to wrestle each other so we can fight the enemy together. If we destroy each other in training then no one is going to be in shape to fight the enemy.
 
Maddog said:
TRM, I do understand the intent of your post but I want to hear more about Torah observant practices, e.g what is food and not food and WHY. I can read with the best of them and agree that the abrasiveness wears on me and thus I visit here sporadically because of it even though I have hung around since 2011. Sharpening sometimes causes heat but sparks ruin the temper. I have visited Mark's site and seen Pete's videos and they are always food for thought. The condemnation of the PERSON versus condemnation of the POSITION should be clear. -M
Click to expand...
Start specific thread for your fascination. Don't derail existing thread on another issue. Problem solved.

Thread derailment may be good when it moves onto "higher" issues or open new perspectives, but this isn't always the case.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top