poly = selfish, unloving towards your wife

[Sean Miller]

Okay, so I'm struggling with this thought.... We are called to love and treat others as we want to be treated. I don't want my wife being with another man, does this make me selfish, no. So when my wife didn't like me being with another woman, is she being selfish?
Am I not loving her because she feels hurt if I spend time with another woman? I don't think so, but I would feel differently if the shoe was on the other foot.

At the end of the day, men and women aren't created equal, I understand this but this is not easy to tell another women. So are we men sinning because we agre with another woman other than our 1st wife because she feels unloved? Why does she feel unloved? The idea of marriage to her is the blissful, "he's mine, and I'm his" idea. She fears he won't love her the same, or have time as much for her, but this I say is not being un loving but more so her fear or selfishness. So why is it right for a man to be selfish in such a way but not your wife.

This comes up every time I date or spend time with another woman, so I struggle with the whole concept, I have two already, but am I wronging or not loving my 1st because she originally "in her heart" didn't want poly but accepted it?

Love to hear your thoughts all.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

This is exactly what my first wife is dealing with.

To be honest, I don't have a good 'pat answer' that easily sums-up some convincing argument why that is the case.
I would say that, the thing is, other people don't define how we are loving. Hope that makes sense. God defines what is loving. And He does not define poly as sinful (ergo, unloving), hence, it is not itself. So for instance, in my relationship with my potential, she has a hard time staying connected and being open/intimate (emotionally) when she is stressed, which is 'most of the time she is at work'. This was distressing to me: I'm a very open and connected person who wants the same from others. So for me, it hurt and felt unloving when she would stop responding to texts or not want to meet up for lunch while at work. After talking it out, and praying about it, (so, was with some encouraging input from God), I came to understand the heart behind her actions, and realized that her doing that did not actually have any relation to or reflection on her love for me. So it was not HER heart that needed to change, but mine. I needed to look at the situation and see her from a different light. Of course, there can be compromise that needs to happen (she realized I needed more connection and has been doing a great job of staying in touch better), but ultimately, I had to realize that my emotional interpretation (she doesnt text much = she loves me less) was inaccurate. Not true. And so I needed to align (by force) my emotional reaction to the reality of her love.

Also last thought: God loves all of us. Christ will marry each of us in heaven. He is the one groom to all us brides. Is that unloving of Him?

 

[rejoicinghandmaid]

@EternalDreamer--Wow! Thank you and you've certainly got some--many--things sorted through and figured out. I'm convinced LOVE always wins the day--eventually! "We love him because he first loved us." I John 4:19 It's a Biblical principle and nothing trumps it!! God is working in the midst of your 1st wife's issues, you can count on that. It's obvious He's also growing you. Patience, purpose, focus, consistency, stedfastness, love, love, and more love will make the difference. Again, thanks for sharing. It did my heart good to read this.

 

[steve]

@Sean, we cannot make it fair.
We can’t make an equivalency between the male experience and the female experience.

 

[Sonshine]

As a wife, in this life, I’ve come to realize that my husband has a different role than I do. If my children started feeling like it wasn’t fair that I get to enforce the rules and they don’t, they aren’t realizing the direction that responsibility goes.

My husband and I aren’t in the same place, no different than my kids aren’t in the same place as I am.

I don’t love my children by giving into their desires. Neither does my husband love me by giving into mine. I can cry, plead, beg, manipulate (I really try to especially avoid this one) all I want—but if Isaac makes a decision for our family that is holy and righteous, I AM being loved. Even if it doesn’t FEEL like it, always.

No different than my children telling me that I don’t love them when I don’t give into what they want. They may feel ignored, unjustly treated, slighted, etc...but the REALITY is that my husband (and myself under his authority) makes rules and decisions and that’s done out of love.

I have felt the feelings you’re describing. If I’m being honest, I’ll probably feel them this week at some point. BUT, it’s my job, once I know the truth of the thing, to get over however I may feel about it.

It’s not easy. And as a husband, I’m sure it’s a painful thing hurting your wife when you’re not doing anything wrong—and knowing that it’s SHE that has to overcome.

My husband’s told me how difficult it is because my feelings are one of the few things he can’t control. He can only guide and direct.
As my children get older, I can empathize.

But, these feelings have only led me to become closer to my God. Because HE is truth. And He will eventually help me get to the place of accepting that truth. I will pray your wife gets there, as well.

 

[rockfox]

At the end of the day, men and women aren't created equal

This is the key to it all. Modern society pushes male-female equality and it is how we think and what we feel is just. But its neither true nor just. It is one of the lies of the devil and very close to the one he told Eve when he tempted her with equality to God. It is no surprise then that when females seek equality the result is often not equality with man, but female worship; because in practice what happens is the hierarchy of creation reverses.

The easiest way to think of your dilemma with selfishness is our created purposes. The woman was created to serve man; an inherently selfless purpose. Her service to you from your perspective is inherently selfish: she is there for your benefit. This does not mean you lack selflessness; your selflessness comes in your humble service to God.

If she struggles with that remind her which of the two masters is more exacting in His judgment. These are important concepts to grasp because the nature of our relationship with Christ, if it exists at all, is one of dieing to self and serving Him.

He who seeks a wife seeks a good thing; your struggle here is not with sin but with the paradigms of the world.

 

[The Revolting Man]

As a wife, in this life, I’ve come to realize that my husband has a different role than I do. If my children started feeling like it wasn’t fair that I get to enforce the rules and they don’t, they aren’t realizing the direction that responsibility goes.

My husband and I aren’t in the same place, no different than my kids aren’t in the same place as I am.

I don’t love my children by giving into their desires. Neither does my husband love me by giving into mine. I can cry, plead, beg, manipulate (I really try to especially avoid this one) all I want—but if Isaac makes a decision for our family that is holy and righteous, I AM being loved. Even if it doesn’t FEEL like it, always.

No different than my children telling me that I don’t love them when I don’t give into what they want. They may feel ignored, unjustly treated, slighted, etc...but the REALITY is that my husband (and myself under his authority) makes rules and decisions and that’s done out of love.

I have felt the feelings you’re describing. If I’m being honest, I’ll probably feel them this week at some point. BUT, it’s my job, once I know the truth of the thing, to get over however I may feel about it.

It’s not easy. And as a husband, I’m sure it’s a painful thing hurting your wife when you’re not doing anything wrong—and knowing that it’s SHE that has to overcome.

My husband’s told me how difficult it is because my feelings are one of the few things he can’t control. He can only guide and direct.
As my children get older, I can empathize.

But, these feelings have only led me to become closer to my God. Because HE is truth. And He will eventually help me get to the place of accepting that truth. I will pray your wife gets there, as well.

My head just exploded and confetti flew all over the place!

 

[Sonshine]

My head just exploded and confetti flew all over the place!

Ha!! Hoping that’s not a bad thing.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Ha!! Hoping that’s not a bad thing.

It's very, very good.

 

[Sean Miller]

This is the key to it all. Modern society pushes male-female equality and it is how we think and what we feel is just. But its neither true nor just. It is one of the lies of the devil and very close to the one he told Eve when he tempted her with equality to God. It is no surprise then that when females seek equality the result is often not equality with man, but female worship; because in practice what happens is the hierarchy of creation reverses.

The easiest way to think of your dilemma with selfishness is our created purposes. The woman was created to serve man; an inherently selfless purpose. Her service to you from your perspective is inherently selfish: she is there for your benefit. This does not mean you lack selflessness; your selflessness comes in your humble service to God.

If she struggles with that remind her which of the two masters is more exacting in His judgment. These are important concepts to grasp because the nature of our relationship with Christ, if it exists at all, is one of dieing to self and serving Him.

He who seeks a wife seeks a good thing; your struggle here is not with sin but with the paradigms of the world.

How do you think this relates to Christ and us? He said he didn't come to be served but to serve. Marriage is to reflect God, Christ and the church, correct? However this doesn't mean Christ submitted to us, but gave up himself for us. So should we men do the same for our wives? In the sense we do by protecting them and laying our lives down for them. Maybe I'm not making sense here

 

[Sean Miller]

Certainly we as men can be unloving or wrong our first wife(s) in the WAY we pursue poly, or talk about it, or treat them...but I think to me something I always come back to is that, really, it's UNloving to love someone??? Baffling. Love should never be hurtful/unloving. It should never be hurtful for me to love another woman, or another person period. If my son feels unloved because I love my daughter...who's in the wrong there? Clearly my son has some issues. Now, maybe I ignore him and don't go to his baseball games and so on...that might be unloving, sure. But if the primary emotional change is "now I also love my daughter", then there really should be no reason for complaint.

I think in terms of the men-women difference here, some of it has to do with leadership and, for lack of a better term, 'life purpose'.
As the man, our job is to lead, to be the head of the household and the family. One leader. "A house divided against itself cannot stand", and all that. The role of the women is to support and follow their man. If a woman was trying to support and follow two men, then the house is divided. But as the man does not follow and obey the women, it isn't an issue in reverse. If a soldier was trying to follow the generals of two different armies, well, that's just bad. But for a general to have multiple soldiers he gives orders to...as long as they all listen, things run smoothly. Hope that image makes sense.

Sorry if this hasn't been helpful. I certainly don't have all the answers. I hate that it hurts my first wife. It's frustrating to see how her feelings (poly = less love) are so patently untrue, and yet they completely drive her responses. In that way, she hurts herself more than I ever could. But I would say that if you aren't diminishing your love and time and so on for your first wife(s), then loving someone else in addition is not 'unloving' at all...rather, it is a continued outgrowth, a continuing 'living out' of who you are...which is, a man and a leader and a lover. You, as the head of your wives and family, were made to love and shepherd multiple women. It's natural for you to BE WHO YOU WERE MADE TO BE. And honestly the one who fights against that...well, we call him the Enemy for a reason.

Also last thought: God loves all of us. Christ will marry each of us in heaven. He is the one groom to all us brides. Is that unloving of Him?

I see your point, and yes, just because we perceive something as being unloving or hurt doesn't always mean it is that way. So we change our perspective, as you did with the texting responses from your lady.

This is where it gets tricky, time with your 1st will always change when there is another you spend your time with. You mentioned as long as we don't take our time away from the other we're not being unloving. Again, it's not as simple, I love my ladies and I can relate with you, my love deepened for my 1st after I took my 2nd. However my time with my 1st is not the same as before, it was just her and I for 4 years, now it's shared. But this didnt mean I love her less by any means!

Ultimately, I hate it when either of them are hurt or upset because im talking or spending time with another, yet at the same time I feel manipulated and trying to be controlled which makes me go into defense mode, no matter how much I logic it out and explain my love doesn't or hasn't changed. This doesn't change their feelings.

When my 1st wife mentions she didn't want poly and wouldn't have chosen it I struggle, "was I being selfish or unloving to her by loving another and expecting her to not be selfish by me having another spouse"? I just hate the distant and withdrawn wife behavior, this is the very behavior that drives men to be passive, all due to the desire for peace in his home. Thankfully I don't bend much when it comes to leadership but when I'm told I'm not leading by a good example because I have dates with diffrent women and might be out late, then I struggle with that thought or idea, "am I not being a good example"

Most of all, I want to do what's right, I am far from being able to do this, however, most of all I want to make sure im loving correctly.

 

[Sean Miller]

As a wife, in this life, I’ve come to realize that my husband has a different role than I do. If my children started feeling like it wasn’t fair that I get to enforce the rules and they don’t, they aren’t realizing the direction that responsibility goes.

My husband and I aren’t in the same place, no different than my kids aren’t in the same place as I am.

I don’t love my children by giving into their desires. Neither does my husband love me by giving into mine. I can cry, plead, beg, manipulate (I really try to especially avoid this one) all I want—but if Isaac makes a decision for our family that is holy and righteous, I AM being loved. Even if it doesn’t FEEL like it, always.

No different than my children telling me that I don’t love them when I don’t give into what they want. They may feel ignored, unjustly treated, slighted, etc...but the REALITY is that my husband (and myself under his authority) makes rules and decisions and that’s done out of love.

I have felt the feelings you’re describing. If I’m being honest, I’ll probably feel them this week at some point. BUT, it’s my job, once I know the truth of the thing, to get over however I may feel about it.

It’s not easy. And as a husband, I’m sure it’s a painful thing hurting your wife when you’re not doing anything wrong—and knowing that it’s SHE that has to overcome.

My husband’s told me how difficult it is because my feelings are one of the few things he can’t control. He can only guide and direct.
As my children get older, I can empathize.

But, these feelings have only led me to become closer to my God. Because HE is truth. And He will eventually help me get to the place of accepting that truth. I will pray your wife gets there, as well.

Yes, very difficult when you as a husband can't "fix" how she feels. The hardest part is when you are showing love in action, words, affection, and time and this goes unnoticed all due to her "feelings".

Thanks for the honest response!

 

[rockfox]

How do you think this relates to Christ and us? He said he didn't come to be served but to serve. Marriage is to reflect God, Christ and the church, correct? However this doesn't mean Christ submitted to us, but gave up himself for us. So should we men do the same for our wives? In the sense we do by protecting them and laying our lives down for them. Maybe I'm not making sense here

It's a both and situation.

Look at the hierarchy of creation in 1 Cor 11. Headship goes God -> Christ -> Man -> Woman. Glory goes the opposite way: Woman -> Man -> Christ -> God. If you look at the later chapters of the Gospel of John, you see how Jesus glorifies God the Father through His self sacrifice.

You refer to Matthew 20:28, but only quoted the first half...

just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

Christ didn't come as a king looking to be served; His primary mission the first go was to give up His life for us at the behest of His father. But the above hierarchy still holds true. For Christ likewise calls for us to do the same in service to Him... (Luke 9:22-24)

[Jesus] saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."
Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."

A lot of this comes down to focus. Yes she serves to your benefit. But your eyes are not upon that for your focus should be upon Christ, and living a sacrificial life for Him. And part of that service is being a shepherd to several of His daughters.

I don't want my wife being with another man, does this make me selfish, no. So when my wife didn't like me being with another woman, is she being selfish?
Am I not loving her because she feels hurt if I spend time with another woman?

Finally a little word about that from a different direction. This concern is only selfish under the worldly assumption of equality. But God did not create you biologically, spiritually, or hierarchically equal. To use an analogy from creation: your situation is no more 'selfish' than the elephant is selfish because he eats more leaves and breathes more air than the gopher. It just is; thats is how God created things. The gopher and the elephant have different roles and requirements for their niche in creation and so do you and your wife.

 

[Keith Martin]

Okay, so I'm struggling with this thought.... We are called to love and treat others as we want to be treated. I don't want my wife being with another man, does this make me selfish, no. So when my wife didn't like me being with another woman, is she being selfish?
Am I not loving her because she feels hurt if I spend time with another woman? I don't think so, but I would feel differently if the shoe was on the other foot.

The first thing to realize is that the shoe can never fit the other foot. @rockfox makes the point well when he asserts in one of the earlier responses to your post that it is only modern-day feminist society that creates false equalities between men and women. But men and women cannot wear each other's shoes and walk properly in life.

This is the key to it all. Modern society pushes male-female equality and it is how we think and what we feel is just. But its neither true nor just. It is one of the lies of the devil and very close to the one he told Eve when he tempted her with equality to God. It is no surprise then that when females seek equality the result is often not equality with man, but female worship; because in practice what happens is the hierarchy of creation reverses.

The easiest way to think of your dilemma with selfishness is our created purposes. The woman was created to serve man; an inherently selfless purpose. Her service to you from your perspective is inherently selfish: she is there for your benefit. This does not mean you lack selflessness; your selflessness comes in your humble service to God.

If she struggles with that remind her which of the two masters is more exacting in His judgment. These are important concepts to grasp because the nature of our relationship with Christ, if it exists at all, is one of dieing to self and serving Him.

He who seeks a wife seeks a good thing; your struggle here is not with sin but with the paradigms of the world.

Amen.

William Luck makes the salient point in the foundation he lays at the beginning of his book, Divorce and Remarriage, that, according to Old Testament law, the marital imperatives for men and women do not overlap. [The love-everyone-with-whom-one-associates imperative introduced by Christ in the New Testament may amend one aspect of this, but not the one in question.] For a wife, pretty much the only enforceable covenant in marriage was to be sexual only with her husband. The husband, on the other hand, had two significant requirements, the second of which wass four-fold:

1. To protect the wife and their children; and
2. To make provision for the wife in regard to food, shelter, clothing and sexual relations.

The wife wasn't required to make love with her husband ever. On the other hand, the husband was required to be as available sexually as his wife desired. In fact, if he took another wife, he was specifically required to ensure that he didn't deprive his first wife of the sex to which she'd become accustomed.

So, let's look at the scoreboard here:

• Sure, the wife is subject to the emotions she experiences in having to share her husband, conjugally and otherwise, but in exchange for being restricted from being able to require her husband to go through the same emotions (as if emotions between men and women are ever identical, anyway), her husband is required to:
  • Ensure that she and her children get sufficient food.
  • Ensure that she and her children have sufficient shelter.
  • Ensure that she and children have sufficient clothing.
  • Ensure that she gets laid anytime she wants (although probably within some kind of reason).
  • Ensure that she is protected specifically by him and more generally by the overall protection provided to all women and children by his fellow men at large (think police and military).

Ah, the oppression of females by the male patriarchy. Cough, cough.

Certainly, some would argue that modern women can't rely on their men for most of those assurances, given that they have careers and are included among the ranks of soldiers and beat cops. However, the above analysis a la Luck never asserted that women were ensured an entire life of leisure. Ensuring provision of life's necessities (food, clothing, shelter and sex) has never meant that women weren't required to contribute to the joint effort; they just bear no overarching responsibility for them within marriage. So I would assert that the feminist argument is little more than a union demand by women to negotiate an even better contract with men, when the one laid out by the Old Testament would probably have been considered more than fair by every culture in the world other than those that have been infested by progressivism since the late 1800s.

Not that they could even accomplish it, but if they could, women in general would have to be collectively foolish to offer to fully reverse the roles deliniated above, because I think way too many men these days would hop on the opportunity to rely on someone else to take full responsibility for protection, food, clothing, shelter and all-you-can-imagine sex from a woman who can't make any of her own sexual demands. I bet most men would even be willing to provide regular child care if they could get that deal.

Just writing that down highlights how absurd the whole cultural conversation is.

 

[rockfox]

The wife wasn't required to make love with her husband ever.

Very good comment Keith; but this bit here is a bleed through of modern perspective. While that is literally true as to what was written, Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthian's that wasn't the spirit of the law.

The nature of the man-woman relationship wasn't one defined exhaustively by OT law requirements; think of them more as protections and high level societal engineering. In traditional societies such as the Hebrew's the requirements on the women were open ended and set by the man. And the law and Paul (Eph 5) are consistent with that.

In other words, the man get's laid as often as he desires. But in the case he is low libido or becomes harsh with his woman, there are protections for the sake of her own sexual needs (and the unifying effect that has on the relationship).

Back to the idea of non-equality; while this is very much a not-equal standard, you can see how this is an arrangement which flows naturally from biology (created design) given that men typically have higher libidos and bond through sex.

 

[Keith Martin]

while this is very much a not-equal standard, you can see how this is an arrangement which flows naturally from biology (created design) given that men typically have higher libidos and bond through sex.

Oh, certainly. I simply assume that God created us the way we are, He created us the way we are on purpose, perfection is defined by God's behavior and choices, and therefore the differences between the sexes are perfect as they are and don't need to be transcended.

 

[Sean Miller]

It's a both and situation.

Look at the hierarchy of creation in 1 Cor 11. Headship goes God -> Christ -> Man -> Woman. Glory goes the opposite way: Woman -> Man -> Christ -> God. If you look at the later chapters of the Gospel of John, you see how Jesus glorifies God the Father through His self sacrifice.

You refer to Matthew 20:28, but only quoted the first half...



Christ didn't come as a king looking to be served; His primary mission the first go was to give up His life for us at the behest of His father. But the above hierarchy still holds true. For Christ likewise calls for us to do the same in service to Him... (Luke 9:22-24)



A lot of this comes down to focus. Yes she serves to your benefit. But your eyes are not upon that for your focus should be upon Christ, and living a sacrificial life for Him. And part of that service is being a shepherd to several of His daughters.



Finally a little word about that from a different direction. This concern is only selfish under the worldly assumption of equality. But God did not create you biologically, spiritually, or hierarchically equal. To use an analogy from creation: your situation is no more 'selfish' than the elephant is selfish because he eats more leaves and breathes more air than the gopher. It just is; thats is how God created things. The gopher and the elephant have different roles and requirements for their niche in creation and so do you and your wife.

I appreciate your detailed response, thank you. What do you think the best approach is to the comment "if you cared about me or loved me enough, you wouldn't have married another woman". This is from my 1st and I try to explain it from the same point of the world view point of today is not the position of God but quite far from it. I often hear, "well we don't live 500 or 1,000 years ago but now, born now". She didn't want poly or think she could handle it, she accepted it because she wanted to obey God but now doesn't care so much about that.

It's not an easy conversation to have, and actually resulted, from a combination of events, her angry towards and not understand God. I didn't create God or his commands, I don't always follow our live by them, however that doesn't change my belief and acceptance of it to be correct and right, even if I don't always like it or agree with it. A lot of things happen in our life such as loss of loved ones and so forth, but this doesn't make me hate or angry at God because he made choices I didnt want, like or think i could handle....

 

[Sean Miller]

Oh, certainly. I simply assume that God created us the way we are, He created us the way we are on purpose, perfection is defined by God's behavior and choices, and therefore the differences between the sexes are perfect as they are and don't need to be transcended.

Women could make the same argument and say that "God created us as we are" today, which includes her not feeling loved if her husband has another, because she feels he doesn't love her or that shes not enough for him...

 

[rockfox]

What do you think the best approach is to the comment "if you cared about me or loved me enough, you wouldn't have married another woman"

I would say right back... "Mommy, if you cared about me or loved me enough, you wouldn't have conceived another child." I would ham this up as much as possible and all with a smirk on my mouth and a mischievous glint in my eye.

She is likely to protest it's not the same and then I'll turn the screws even further pointing out how homes are better with more love, not less. And that such words from the mouth of a child would viewed as selfish and conceited.

The truth is, it's not about love, its about a selfish need to have you to herself and either maximize the level of attention and/or level of control she has over you (depending on your marriage dynamic). You don't have to say that last sentence, most parents with more than a single kid knows the reason behind the green monster when it rears it's head at the appearance of a new baby.

Some of this depends on the dynamic with your wife and how self-aware / open to correction she is and how prone to outbursts. And this depends on the context and how serious the conversation is. If you can make her laugh while you stomp like a 2 year old saying it all the better. In other contexts it may be more appropriate to be holding her while you point out that when we had a second child the first wasn't any less loved.

Sometimes this concern isn't about selfishness so much as fear and a need for reassurance. She's scared she's not good enough or you got another because you didn't love her or care about her.

 

[rockfox]

Women could make the same argument and say that "God created us as we are" today, which includes her not feeling loved if her husband has another, because she feels he doesn't love her or that shes not enough for him...

Ya, her feelings aren't the arbitrator of whether or not you are loving her. That is the bait and switch of love as feelings instead of action that society uses to make women the judges and rulers of the marriage.