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Potential New Convert

Daniel DeLuca

Daniel DeLuca

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
About a year and a half ago, I was talking with a fellow orchestra member, because polygamy had been discussed on the radio on a live call in Christian radio show, called "The Narrow Path" with Steve Gregg. It was interesting that the host correctly said that polygamy is not adultery, and he even pointed out that there is nowhere in Scripture where it is called a sin. He then went on to say that his reasons for condemning it stem from Matt 19. I emailed him and never got a response back.

Well this orchestra member also disagreed with me when I told him that there is nothing wrong with polygamy, but he knew that I know the Bible much better than he, and we left it at that. Well, last week, after rehearsal, it came up in conversation again. You see, the former worship leader at my previous church, caused his wife to commit adultery, and he went on to marry another woman. I explained that I didn't see anything wrong with marrying another woman, although the church where he was the worship pastor certainly did, and I asked, "You know my position on polygamy." He reiterated his disagreement with it, but he couldn't find any reasons from Scripture for his disagreement.

We had a very good conversation in the parking lot, and he asked me to send him some Scriptures. Monday, I sent a very long detailed email explaining both sides of the argument in great detail and concluded by telling him not to try to persuade anyone himself, because of the opposition he will no doubt face, but to set up a meeting with me. I laid out the plan to build support for this movement within the church, so that we can bring this issue into the "debatable" status that so many other issues that we have in the church, such as predestination, and Lordship Salvation have.

I have yet to hear back from him, but I will see him tonight at rehearsal. I will keep everybody posted.
 
He was not there. :( I'll have to talk to him on Sunday. However....another orchestra member with whom I have shared my desire to have a second wife, was showing me the Texas legal code last week. I told him I had already seen it and had petitioned my state representative to modify it, to allow bigamy in the case of consent. I explained last week that those are not bad laws, but they are overreaching, and I told him that this was why I had asked him, since he is a lawyer, what it would take to get a waiver from that law. Before we started rehearsal last week, I shared with him what Jesus had said about marrying a divorced woman. He didn't believe me, until I recited Matt 5:32. I told him that Jesus did not make any exceptions to this to allow the divorced woman to remarry, even if her husband remarried. I explained to him that in the eyes of God, she is still married to her first husband.

Well tonight, the choir and orchestra celebrated birthdays for the month of March, and I sat down with him and shared even more Scriptures. I shared with him my recent confirmation that Matt 19:9 was talking about the wife remarrying, not the husband. I told him that Jesus was answering the Pharisees who had just asked Him about the Bill of Divorce. I shared that when Jesus said that it was not so from the beginning, what He was saying, was that the Bill of Divorce itself was not around in the beginning, and the Bill of Divorce is what freed the wife to remarry. This was a recent discovery for me, even though I have read those verses several times over, because I got in a heated discussion with an anti-poly on YouTube, and he kept challenging me with the question of why a woman never divorced her husband in the OT. It occurred to me that she didn't divorce her husband, because she didn't need to. He could always marry another woman. She was the one who needed the Bill of Divorce before she could marry another man. I shared with my friend how when Jesus talked about their hearts being hard, He was referring to the ten times they had tested the Lord in the wilderness, and their refusal to enter the land of Canaan. I shared with him Rom 7:2, I Cor 7:39 and I Cor 7:10-11. He just sat there and said nothing. He took it all in, and had this blank expression on his face.

I brought this subject up, partially because a caller had called into Janet Parshall's program that I was listening to on the way in to rehearsal, and the guest that was on, hinted that remarriage might be acceptable in some instances. I will compose another email to that show. I have composed three or four other emails regarding polygamy, and have never received a response back from them. I will have to compose one that will prompt them to follow up with me, so that I know that they are paying attention, before I bring up this issue.

Anyhow, things are getting quite interesting, to say the least. Our Bible Study/Sunday School class has morphed into a marriage class, and we are going through a book called His Needs Her Needs. I posted a critique of the book on Facebook, and I got a few likes, but none from our Bible Study class. I wouldn't expect any of them to like it. The article I posted, states that the information based in the book is based on Pop culture, not Scripture, and it also states that there have been no long term studies on whether the principles expounded upon, actually work, in spite of the book being in print for 30 years. I have poked holes in those principles wherever I find it appropriate to do so. This week, they brought up physical appearance. We read several passages of Scripture, including the one about how Rachel was beautiful, but Leah had weak eyes. The leader brought up a scenario of a woman who lost weight, got married and put it all back, and how her husband felt about it. I asked why it was such a big deal for him. I wanted to get them to acknowledge that the real reason was monogamy forced this hypothetical man to deal with the fact that he would not have an attractive wife, but they would not take the bait. Ultimately, I interjected that what Jacob did, when he was faced with a similar dilemma, is simply marry the desirable sister that he really wanted. They did not have a response to that. Each week has been an adventure to see how far I can test the limits of their presumptions, without going to far and finding myself ostracized. Hopefully, I will have a chance to engage with some of the class members in some one-on-one discussions!
 
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Well, my friend wasn't there on Sunday, but I saw him in rehearsal on Wednesday. He said that he has not had time to read everything I posted. AS you guys know, I tend to get long winded when I post something, and that is no different when I compose an email. He said that he will look into it. I will keep everyone posted.
 
I talked to him yesterday, and he is on board!!!! I asked him if he had read the email I sent him, and he said that he had not gotten around to reading it, so I asked if if his thinking had changed any from where he was totally against polygamy. He said that he was, because it is not for him. I responded by saying of course it is not for everybody, but are you opposed to someone else practicing polygamy, and he said, "Well! I think, to each his own, you know!" I said, "Well not exactly." I said, "We have to stay within the parameters that God set up". He said, "Yeah, I agree!" We had a performance last night, which I why I was able to talk to him. After the performance, I asked him, "OK, so the real question is, if someone from our church were to have a second wife, would you be willing to back him up if the church were to decide to expel him, because I know I would." He said, "Oh! Who are we talking about?" The funny thing is, the man we chose to play the role of Jesus in our performance, has a former wife and a new wife, and he has given a video testimony in which he mentioned that he has to deal with custody battles. My first thought, when I saw that, was "I need to talk to that fellow". Not too long ago, I spoke with a woman who has a child from her former husband, and told her that I was a proponent of polygamy. I told her that according to Jesus and Paul, the only man she is allowed to marry is her former husband, who she described much the same way as the this man's testimony. So I told this new convert that there is nobody right now, BUT I was asking in the event that somebody does come to our church with multiple wives. He said, "Yeah, I see!" So there is still more work to do on him. I told him that if he gets in a discussion with anybody about polygamy, to direct them to me. I want more converts.

Speaking of more converts, The minister to young adults has been teaching our Bible Study aka Sunday School class. I arrived late, so I didn't hear him say it, but he said that his daughter is 35, and lives in New York, and cannot find a godly man. The church has a bio on him, as he is on staff, and it indicates that she is a CPA. I saw him in the hallway last night and went to shake his hand. I told him to tell his daughter that polygamy is biblical, and laughed and walked off. It was sort of like a hit and run, but as I was walking away, he said something, and I didn't hear what he said, so I asked him what he had said, and he said, "It is biblical, but nowhere in the Bible, is it condoned!" I said, "Actually it is!" I said, "I don't want to argue about it right now though", and I walked away. It was AWESOME! Now I got him thinking about it.

I wonder if any godly men among us live in or near New York. Perhaps somebody might know a 35 year old woman named Shannon Bivens. She needs a godly husband.
 
If you followed the thread that I started, Progress on the Church Acceptance Front, you will note that I mentioned the fact that I was able to talk to two people about why I was asked to step down. My little boy is in VBS at the church that hosts the school that he attended this week. I was dropping him off, and one of those two people I mentioned, was there with her two daughters. I saw her Monday and Tuesday, and on Tuesday, she agreed to pick up my little boy on Wednesday, so that I could go to rehearsal. We met at a Chick Fil'A halfway between our church and where I live, and I took my son home from there. It worked out great, because otherwise, he would have had to miss last night.

Well on Tuesday, I told her that the church had asked me to not promote polygamy. I elaborated on that a little bit last night, and told her that just because I am not promoting it, doesn't mean that I don't believe in it. I told her that even if you don't want to live it, we should be prepared to stand up for anyone in the church who does decide to practice it. I didn't elaborate on the fact that the Bible actually teaches polygamy is acceptable, but left it out there that indeed it does. I also mentioned the SBC Convention that is going on right now, and said that someone needs to propose that anyone who does have more than one wife, should not be asked to divorce any of his wives.

She asked me, "Isn't polygamy a liberal position?" I said, "No. In fact is a very conservative position, but that is if you are arguing in favor of more than one wife. If you are arguing for more than one husband, that WOULD be a liberal position." As we parted and said our goodbyes, I could see her looking off into the night sky, pondering what I had shared with her. Her husband, no doubt will not agree with what I shared. The realization I had as I got into my car, was that we may have to take this on in a formal debate, and her husband might be the ideal person to do this with. As I drove off, I sat there thinking about which church might be the ideal site to hold this debate in.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
If you followed the thread that I started, Progress on the Church Acceptance Front, you will note that I mentioned the fact that I was able to talk to two people about why I was asked to step down. My little boy is in VBS at the church that hosts the school that he attended this week. I was dropping him off, and one of those two people I mentioned, was there with her two daughters. I saw her Monday and Tuesday, and on Tuesday, she agreed to pick up my little boy on Wednesday, so that I could go to rehearsal. We met at a Chick Fil'A halfway between our church and where I live, and I took my son home from there. It worked out great, because otherwise, he would have had to miss last night.

Well on Tuesday, I told her that the church had asked me to not promote polygamy. I elaborated on that a little bit last night, and told her that just because I am not promoting it, doesn't mean that I don't believe in it. I told her that even if you don't want to live it, we should be prepared to stand up for anyone in the church who does decide to practice it. I didn't elaborate on the fact that the Bible actually teaches polygamy is acceptable, but left it out there that indeed it does. I also mentioned the SBC Convention that is going on right now, and said that someone needs to propose that anyone who does have more than one wife, should not be asked to divorce any of his wives.

She asked me, "Isn't polygamy a liberal position?" I said, "No. In fact is a very conservative position, but that is if you are arguing in favor of more than one wife. If you are arguing for more than one husband, that WOULD be a liberal position." As we parted and said our goodbyes, I could see her looking off into the night sky, pondering what I had shared with her. Her husband, no doubt will not agree with what I shared. The realization I had as I got into my car, was that we may have to take this on in a formal debate, and her husband might be the ideal person to do this with. As I drove off, I sat there thinking about which church might be the ideal site to hold this debate in.
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Just curious as to why you keep resorting to the debate format. It seems like you are doing a fine job of informally convincing folks. My experience is that debates just serve to solidify people to their current side. The number who change sides is minimal (perhaps as many or less than who you are influencing now). Why take an official stand? Is there anything that prevents you from being an informal voice of reason?
 
Mojo said:
Just curious as to why you keep resorting to the debate format. It seems like you are doing a fine job of informally convincing folks. My experience is that debates just serve to solidify people to their current side. The number who change sides is minimal (perhaps as many or less than who you are influencing now). Why take an official stand? Is there anything that prevents you from being an informal voice of reason?
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I like the idea of having a bigger platform. It is tiring sharing one on one, and it seems progress is slow, and I do concern myself with the fact that I may convince somebody, and then someone else comes along and I have no way to counter what they have to say. I watched the debate Pastor Dowell had with Pastor Robert, and that didn't go too well for Roberts, and I know that truth wins out when both sides have the opportunity to present their best arguments. The fact that we don't even get to have a stage, means that the best we can hope for, is a YouTube channel, that only a small number of people will see. Also, I would like for more people close to where I reside, to hear and understand the truth. That may seem selfish, but I like my church, and will only start a new one as a last resort. I never tried to start a church before, so there is the risk of failure that I also have to take into account, and I know that I won't have the backing of a denomination, to get the church off the ground. I have good ideas, but a lot of uncertainty, and I don't think that our movement has grown large enough to find support in that endeavor. Then again, I have never taken a debate class or participated in a live debate, so I could fall flat on my face, but at least I still have a church to go to. Also, I am not trying to get into a debate with the likes of John MacArthur, or Dr. James White, who have debated numerous people over a period of several years. I'll settle for ordinary anti-poly folks, whom I stand a much better chance of winning or holding my own. The fact is, most people don't even realize that there is an argument for polygamy, to begin with, so having a debate, should at least cast some aspersions in their minds as to whether this is an open and shut case against polygamy.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
It is tiring sharing one on one, and it seems progress is slow
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Jesus started with just 12, picked out one by one. And they changed the world!

Daniel DeLuca said:
I do concern myself with the fact that I may convince somebody, and then someone else comes along and I have no way to counter what they have to say.
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You plant the seed, someone else waters, God gives the increase. Don't worry about what comes along later. Just do your part with those God brings your way today.
 
rockfox said:
Jesus started with just 12, picked out one by one. And they changed the world!



You plant the seed, someone else waters, God gives the increase. Don't worry about what comes along later. Just do your part with those God brings your way today.
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Those 12 were also empowered to do miraculous deeds. That kinda helped.
 
In cooking, many things are ruined by using too high of a temperature while other things fail due to lower temperatures.
Let YHWH lead you to the perfect temperature for your situation.
 
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