Raising children in church in PM

[FollowingHim]

Currently we are still members of the corporate church in town and I know I will have to prepare myself and face the pastor and elders as well as to my new but biblical convictions. Will likely be soon.

I would strongly suggest not making a big deal of this. You be the one that downplays it.

If you tell the pastor and elders "I have a really serious matter to discuss with you", and then on that basis discuss polygamy with them, hoping they'll turn to agree with you - they'll also take it as a really serious matter and you'll get the boot instantly. Firstly, because you've already set the scene yourself, saying it's important. Secondly, because there must be a reason you'd think it was important enough to make a big deal about - are you going to actually do it? You might deny it, but seriously, what about the single ladies in the church, are you looking at them every Sunday? Now they're worried you're a creep and could be a danger to their daughters.

I do not think this is a good approach. Plenty of people here have done it, and it almost always ends terribly.

I would instead advise downplaying it and considering it a self-evident truth that doesn't need you to defend it. Don't go out of your way to raise the topic with anybody. However, whenever a conversation arises where this helps to explain something - e.g. if someone's had an affair and people are discussing the realities of the situation, or if people are discussing the relationship between individual Christians and God and trying to understand the "bride of Christ" concept, or whatever - do not hesitate to say what you really believe. In the context of that specific conversation.

Eventually the church leaders might decide they need to approach you. Let them do so. Be surprised that they would want to discuss that topic and make a big deal about it (don't just "act" surprised. Be surprised. There is no justification for them to consider this a big deal). Let them be the ones who are in the uncomfortable position of having to raise the topic and explain their position from scripture. Ask THEM why they are so interested in the topic that they are seeking your opinion on it!

If they do decide eventually to invite you to a very serious meeting, TAKE A WITNESS, or at least record it. This is the biggest mistake I made when that happened to me. I was subjected to a serious meeting initiated by church leadership, I was very careful with my words and careful to hear theirs correctly, but afterwards they told quite a different story about that meeting than the one I recalled. I am not assuming malice here, just stating the fact - our accounts of this to other church members who were not there differed substantially, and nobody would know who to believe. A witness has additional value than just a recording, as they can help to dispassionately steer conversation if needed, while you may be more emotively caught up in it.

In other words, just live your life and see where God takes you. But if He does take you somewhere interesting, approach it wisely.

 

[steve]

You can try any number of paths, but the reality is that the enemy of our souls hates and fears the truth of plural marriage.
None of the major denominations will stand against him on this. No matter who the local leaders are, in all probability they are infected with some level of a religious spirit and will default to defending tradition. How spiritually bloody it will get varies widely.

As @Keith Martin said, here we are, likeminded enough to enjoy fellowship on the forums and at retreats while being widely (even wildly) divergent in our understanding of what Yah desires us to see in His Word.
You have entered pioneer territory, enjoy it without having to depend on the crutch of organized religion.

 

[Farmer Moses]

I would strongly suggest not making a big deal of this. You be the one that downplays it.

If you tell the pastor and elders "I have a really serious matter to discuss with you", and then on that basis discuss polygamy with them, hoping they'll turn to agree with you - they'll also take it as a really serious matter and you'll get the boot instantly. Firstly, because you've already set the scene yourself, saying it's important. Secondly, because there must be a reason you'd think it was important enough to make a big deal about - are you going to actually do it? You might deny it, but seriously, what about the single ladies in the church, are you looking at them every Sunday? Now they're worried you're a creep and could be a danger to their daughters.

I do not think this is a good approach. Plenty of people here have done it, and it almost always ends terribly.

I would instead advise downplaying it and considering it a self-evident truth that doesn't need you to defend it. Don't go out of your way to raise the topic with anybody. However, whenever a conversation arises where this helps to explain something - e.g. if someone's had an affair and people are discussing the realities of the situation, or if people are discussing the relationship between individual Christians and God and trying to understand the "bride of Christ" concept, or whatever - do not hesitate to say what you really believe. In the context of that specific conversation.

Eventually the church leaders might decide they need to approach you. Let them do so. Be surprised that they would want to discuss that topic and make a big deal about it (don't just "act" surprised. Be surprised. There is no justification for them to consider this a big deal). Let them be the ones who are in the uncomfortable position of having to raise the topic and explain their position from scripture. Ask THEM why they are so interested in the topic that they are seeking your opinion on it!

If they do decide eventually to invite you to a very serious meeting, TAKE A WITNESS, or at least record it. This is the biggest mistake I made when that happened to me. I was subjected to a serious meeting initiated by church leadership, I was very careful with my words and careful to hear theirs correctly, but afterwards they told quite a different story about that meeting than the one I recalled. I am not assuming malice here, just stating the fact - our accounts of this to other church members who were not there differed substantially, and nobody would know who to believe. A witness has additional value than just a recording, as they can help to dispassionately steer conversation if needed, while you may be more emotively caught up in it.

In other words, just live your life and see where God takes you. But if He does take you somewhere interesting, approach it wisely.

That sounds like a very reasonable and wise approach FollowingHim, but here's the problem, our corporate church subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith. I would have to check to see if it is the WCF or accompanying it in an official church document, but all members had to agree to tell the leadership if at any time they had change of understanding or could not adhere fully to the WCF.

Here's another issue: through more vigorous study I have become more "Lutheran" in my understanding of the Eucharist than "Calvin". I was considering that to be the litmus test to see if they would permit any sort of deviation from the WCF in issues other than the literal 6 day creation or Sabbath observance, which are common exceptions that are often approved by the elders for elders themselves.

 

[FollowingHim]

That sounds like a very reasonable and wise approach FollowingHim, but here's the problem, our corporate church subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith. I would have to check to see if it is the WCF or accompanying it in an official church document, but all members had to agree to tell the leadership if at any time they had change of understanding or could not adhere fully to the WCF.

Here's another issue: through more vigorous study I have become more "Lutheran" in my understanding of the Eucharist than "Calvin". I was considering that to be the litmus test to see if they would permit any sort of deviation from the WCF in issues other than the literal 6 day creation or Sabbath observance, which are common exceptions that are often approved by the elders for elders themselves.

Consider what you wrote for a moment. The elders are permitting themselves to go against the WCF when it comes to creation and the sabbath? Both are so critical that they each have an entire chapter in the WCF specifically devoted to them.

• Creation is the foundational explanation for God's sovereignty, underlying the first commandment. It also underlies the fall and thereby salvation itself.
• The Sabbath is the fourth commandment.

These are egregious departures both from scripture, and the WCF.

Polygamy is also a departure from the WCF, but not from scripture. The WCF decrees that polygamy is unlawful but does not provide any scriptural reasoning behind this.

If the elders themselves depart from the WCF so egregiously, they have established a precedent that they don't actually consider the WCF binding upon the church, even if they say otherwise. They cannot expect you to obey instructions they refuse to obey themselves. I would run with that precedent and not worry about your own departures from it. If they challenge you on it, take them straight back to the WCF and challenge them on their more egregious departures from it. Ask whether the WCF is binding on the church or not. If they decree it is, then discuss their heresies. If they decree it is not, then ask them to show you from scripture where you are in error, ignoring the WCF.

Again, I would not be the one to raise this. I would leave it to them to do so. But if you do feel an obligation to alert them to any breach of the WCF, report their own breaches as the more serious matter to address, maybe with your own disagreement as a footnote. And stress that it is most crucial to ensure the elders are correctly teaching scripture, not laypeople, so their heresies are the matter of prime importance to discuss.

Do not allow them to hypocritically use the WCF against you when they are in conflict with it themselves.

 

[FollowingHim]

If you feel an obligation to raise this @Farmer Moses, you could come from the perspective of "I am starting to question the WCF in some areas of minor detail, so would like to clarify whether the WCF is binding upon the church. I note that you do not follow the WCF's teachings on creation or the sabbath, both major matters. I would like to explore your position on these matters in order to better understand the level of scriptural authority behind the WCF. Specifically, I would like to understand whether I should use it as a firm rule between what is right and what is heretical, or whether I should use it as a starting point of reasonable doctrine which may be departed from if our own studies lead us to a different conclusion."

In that way you could begin the conversation without even mentioning polygamy at all.

More importantly, such a conversation could actually be edifying to all involved, and help all to come to a firmer understanding of scripture. It comes from a collaborative perspective rather than an adversarial one.

 

[Farmer Moses]

I agree Steve I really don't see this ending up anywhere else than us leaving our corporate church after being tossed out on my ear as a heretic but I would be glad to be proven wrong.

At the present moment I think I will just continue to hold home Sunday service as DW doesn't want to go to corporate church in person due to present worries about Covid. She is already looking at the spike in China. I am not worried about it but fighting her about that as well as answering questions about poly and standing ground as needed is not something I am willing to bite off. I feel we are honoring God with our home group just as well if not more than corporate.

Followinghim, I do appreciate the strategy and analysis which I will need once we have to cross that bridge.

 

[Keith Martin]

I just heard Kevin Samuels assert that girls going to college is The Feminist Starter Kit -- and subsequent adult membership in any mainstream denomination church is Feminist Grad School.

 

[steve]

I just heard Kevin Samuels assert that girls going to college is The Feminist Starter Kit -- and subsequent adult membership in any mainstream denomination church is Feminist Grad School.

He further stated that he quit going to church because of how it so female centered (or something like that)
Getting the tithes of all the single mothers is paramount.

 

[LDremoved]

I would encourage you to think about these statements. They seem to be in opposition to each other. Yet, I can totally relate! I loved being a part of a church. It was my main community for my life before polygyny happened to it. In short, it was an Idol I had to "throw away" before truly following my husband, and my Savior, down the path they were asking me to walk. I knew the church had it's faults and wrong beliefs but I loved the community of it and the good I saw in it. There is obviously some positive thing you want your children to receive from being a part of a church even though you have personally found emotional freedom by NOT being a part of one. What is that positive thing you are desiring? Can you give it up if the Lord so asks it of you? Can you have faith that the Lord can provide the that but in a different way possibly, as you walk the path He sends you down? The great and beautiful thing about God is that he is a loving Father to his children and he desires good things for us and our families. Trust in that and know He will provide all the important experiences that your children will need in their lives.

Wonderful advice! Having heard horror stories from Polygamist families being kicked out and shunned from churches they attended and built friendships through for simply even expressing their desire for Polygamy.

Something I struggle to understand is why is Polygamy or the interest in Polygamy such an unforgivable "sin" to some people. They will ask people to leave church because they have multiple wives- all the while accepting/forgiving and ministering to murderers, rapist, drug addicts, thiefs, adulterers etc.

 

[Keith Martin]

Something I struggle to understand is why is Polygamy or the interest in Polygamy such an unforgivable "sin" to some people. They will ask people to leave church because they have multiple wives- all the while accepting/forgiving and ministering to murderers, rapist, drug addicts, thiefs, adulterers etc.

Well, it's not rocket science -- there is virtually nothing more disgusting than a man making a life-long commitment to more than one woman.

All facetiousness aside, it's not really opaque: desire for social approval is one of the most dominant forces among human beings, and that seems to be even more the case among those who belong to mainstream church clubs, which are not so much dominated by the surrounding postmodern feminist culture but some of the main drivers of that culture. In that sense, it's hard to separate biblical polygamy from patriarchy, which feminism falsely but craftily demonizes as being a system of male oppression of women. Feminists have acquired great power by pushing a particular worldview, and they will fight tooth and nail to preserve the status quo of their propaganda, just as they fight tooth and nail for the preservation of their primary sacrament, abortion. When a man devotes the rest of his life to covering more than one woman, that, in the minds of feminists, decreases their pool of suckers by yet another woman.

 

[PeteR]

Build your own fellowship!

Seriously, our home fellowship is composed of multiple families that all believe, both men and women, that polygyny is not a sin, and most believe it is righteous! We didn't start that way... I helped lead a good sized home fellowship that largely disintegrated when it became public knowledge that I had *gasp* come to believe in polygamy... well, I and my reluctant (at the time) woman stood firm and let Yah purge our ranks. Then, He brought new families that either already knew and believed or were willing to study the Scriptures. Today, I count myself blessed to be an elder in a vibrant fellowship that Yah is blessing and it is at least partly due to faithfulness and a bold unyeilding stand!