Re-post, on demand:

[JudahYAHites]

Everything we can REQUIRE of a follower of Jesus is contained in Acts 15

Apostle Paul and the holy spirit would disagree with that statement

Acts 20:25-31 KJV — And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV — Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

work out = katergázomai, kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee; to work fully, i.e. accomplish; by implication, to finish, fashion:—cause, to (deed), perform, work (out).

So in context it should read WORK FULLY YOUR SALVATION/ OR WORK TO COMPLETION YOUR SALVATION
based on the obedience to what they had been taught.

It doesn't take three years to relay 4 things which had already been communicated in a letter. There are obviously more things to obey according to the written records we have from the Apostles.

To say otherwise is a huge error. Your statement does not hold water.

 

[The Revolting Man]

They can come and learn the REST of His Instruction, His 'torah' - every sabbath, in any city.

Did you notice the second word you used there ? “Can” can carry a lot of weight. In this case it does, in both directions.

And since when do we not seek a second witness?

We need a second witness for court cases; God does not need a second witness for anything. This is yet one more area of the Law that you don’t understand because you refuse to risk any of your preconceptions.

 

[The Revolting Man]

As for this sneering, condescending, self-serving CRAP, it is offensive even in the Ghetto. You should know better.


I reported it. You'll delete that, but should get a 48 hour time-out.

You know through your back channel sources that I am on a moderation stand down for the next 36-48 hours. Once again, you’re being dishonest to try and score debate points.

I won’t be performing any moderator duties until further notice, so I’m free to help you examine all the multitudinous errors you’ve swallowed over the years. Yay! You’re such a lucky guy!

 

[The Revolting Man]

Apostle Paul and the holy spirit would disagree with that statement

Acts 20:25-31 KJV — And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV — Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

work out = katergázomai, kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee; to work fully, i.e. accomplish; by implication, to finish, fashion:—cause, to (deed), perform, work (out).

So in context it should read WORK FULLY YOUR SALVATION/ OR WORK TO COMPLETION YOUR SALVATION
based on the obedience to what they had been taught.

It doesn't take three years to relay 4 things which had already been communicated in a letter. There are obviously more things to obey according to the written records we have from the Apostles.

To say otherwise is a huge error. Your statement does not hold water.

The problem here is that you’re assuming that Paul’s words here give you license over others; they are in fact instructions for you to implement in your own life.

Acts 15, rhe Council of Jerusalem, convened to manage the burgeoning tensions between Paul’s ministry and Peter’s, is the only authorizing document we have for what we can impose on others.

Remember, our faith is a personal one. It is only corporate in the sense that every individual is focused on perfecting his own faith to the same standard; Christ.

You can’t tell others that they have to worship on Saturday and they can’t tell you that you have to worship on Sunday. Why? Because the Apostles, acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, told us what we can IMPOSE on our fellow believers. These instructions were explicitly written down and disseminated throughout the believers.

You can add Torah keeping to your faith in Jesus Christ, as @Mark C so helpfully (for once) pointed out. Hellenized believers have to accept that is your freedom and you have to accept that there is no compulsion for them to do the same. They can express their faith in Jesus Christ in the physical realm by not eating blood, things strangled or sacrificed to idols, keep the sexual Laws and remember widows and orphans. That’s all we can require of each other for fellowship.

For anything else we have to either add to or take away from the scriptures.

 

[The Revolting Man]

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

You didn’t even read your own proof text, I say this a lot and I’ll say it again; if you want to be taken seriously then you have to act serious.

I said that Acts 15 was the only standard that we could impose on others and then you came at me with a proof text about one’s personal faith. This is why Torah keepers don’t get respect in the broader Christian community. We will spend years arguing about apocryphal books and obscure little weirdness that seems to only end up with us redefining the sabbath (the very thing we damn Constantine for, completely without evidence mind you) or some other such ludicrousness, but then we’ll perform a drive by hit and run on Paul for some topic he expressly said he wasn’t talking about.

Be serious. You’re wasting both of our time.

 

[PastorLarry]

Part of your problem Mark is that you either don’t think through the implication of your statements or you’re trying to hide the ball; I suspect it’s healthy doses of both. In this case I’m convinced it’s more an attempt to hide the ball but there is a lot of failing to think through it too, at least in your follow up obfuscation.

That’s one of the pitfalls of being convinced you’re the smartest man you know; your contempt for others intelligence always shines through. Let’s parse your statement though shall we?

Oh wait, there’s nothing to parse. A lot of us just spent an entire weekend with women struggling to accept polygyny who never once asked about the sabbath, feast days or dietary laws. It’s a ridiculous argument. Especially since polygyny was practiced BEFORE feast days and dietary laws were issued.

You are not trying to justify polygyny, you are trying to advance Torah keeping and it would be a transparent lie to claim otherwise. You want to try and make polygyny the exclusive jurisdiction of the Law so you can try and force people into keeping the Law.

And I don’t think you’re doing that because you have any great desire to see people reconciled to their Creator as much as you just want them to anoint you as their high priest.

We can point to all sorts of scripture; both old and new, that is quite explicit about not subjecting non-Israelites to the Law. In fact if you claim to be a Law keeper you need to find something in the Law that says gentiles should keep the Laws delivered a Sinai.

However we have direct scripture imposing the Torah sexual code on all followers of Jesus. We don’t have to talk about the sabbath, or feast days or dietary laws to support polygyny. We can talk about marriage and sex laws. That wouldn’t allow you to try and claim some kind of priestly mantle though.

Your approach would drive people away from polygyny by tying it to ideas that they will never accept; that they have to keep the Law. It will in fact drive women away from keeping the Law if they’re being so led because it will give them an excuse to reject polygyny if they’re so inclined.

As usual you are being a myopic destroyer of the very things you claim to want to promote.

How could Mark possibly think HE is the smartest man he knows... Well, perhaps before I came on the scene. But is it not evident that I AM NOW THE SMARTEST MAN HE KNOWS??? Huh??? Huh??? LOL

 

[The Revolting Man]

How could Mark possibly think HE is the smartest man he knows... Well, perhaps before I came on the scene. But is it not evident that I AM NOW THE SMARTEST MAN HE KNOWS??? Huh??? Huh??? LOL

To the rest of us yes, obviously.

 

[The Revolting Man]

As for this sneering, condescending, self-serving CRAP, it is offensive even in the Ghetto. You should know better.


I reported it. You'll delete that, but should get a 48 hour time-out.

Your complaint has been forwarded to a moderator you trust. Reach out to him and make your case. I won’t be touching it.

 

[JudahYAHites]

I can only assume one of three things

1. You are being intentionally obtuse
2. You are dyslexic or similar
3. You truly missed my point

The problem here is that you’re assuming that Paul’s words here give you license over others; they are in fact instructions for you to implement in your own life.

Why the false accusation is this a diversionary tactic ?

I clearly stated

Apostle Paul and the holy spirit would disagree with that statement

Focus.

Acts 15, rhe Council of Jerusalem, convened to manage the burgeoning tensions between Paul’s ministry and Peter’s, is the only authorizing document we have for what we can impose on others.

So are you suggesting that Paul spent three years of wasted breath and tears? Or was he solely warning about the 4 point starter guide already given ?

I will say it again Your statement holds no water.

You didn’t even read your own proof text, I say this a lot and I’ll say it again; if you want to be taken seriously then you have to act serious.

really

Everything we can REQUIRE of a follower of Jesus is

So I take it that according to your reasoning;

the definition of sin has changed
Or
There is no progress from milk to meat for any believer
Or
The renewing of the mind that transforms believers happened with that letter in Acts 15

Your position is ludicrous

Read Hebrews 10

There are so many verses elsewhere.

I said that Acts 15 was the only standard that we could impose on others and then you came at me with a proof text about one’s personal faith.

The text was written to the fellowship at Philippi the instructions were not sent to a guy named Philip. Read the text properly

Philippians 1:1 KJV — Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

This is why Torah keepers don’t get respect in the broader Christian community. We will spend years arguing about apocryphal books and obscure little weirdness that seems to only end up with us redefining the sabbath (the very thing we damn Constantine for, completely without evidence mind you) or some other such ludicrousness, but then we’ll perform a drive by hit and run on Paul for some topic he expressly said he wasn’t talking about.

Be serious. You’re wasting both of our time

Maybe I am wasting my time with you as I referred to a specific thing but you consistently divert into a labyrinth of tangents that have nothing to do with what I wrote or addressed with you.

Your responses are based on a figment of your own imagination

Acts 15, rhe Council of Jerusalem, convened to manage the burgeoning tensions between Paul’s ministry and Peter’s

The text states....

Acts 15:1 KJV — And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

And...

Acts 15:5 KJV — But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Paul and Barnabas disputed against the certain men teaching circumcision

If you are unable to deal with the text accurately in context then your reasoning cannot be taken seriously and by default is not worth the time it takes to read it.

 

[Mark C]

We need a second witness for court cases; God does not need a second witness for anything. This is yet one more area of the Law that you don’t understand because you refuse to risk any of your preconceptions.

This BLINDNESS must not stand.

Why did Moses call, and Yahushua confirm, "heaven and earth" - two witnesses - MULTIPLE times?
Why did He give us two witnesses - Ezekiel (23) and Jeremiah (3) to his TWO whoring wives?
Why are there TWO witnesses in Revelation?

...and so on.

Good grief.

 

[FollowingHim]

Well, I was clearly wrong to unlock the thread. Seriously guys, this is exactly the sort of unhelpful bickering that has no place on a marriage forum. Thread is locked again, not to censor any particular viewpoint, but because we just don't need this argumentative nonsense clogging the site. Go argue in private if you really want to.