Revelation and Roman Catholic Liturgy

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I was watching a T.V. show with Scott Han on EWTN

http://www.scotthahn.com/

He claimed that he could never ever understand the book of Revelation after studying it for perhaps something like 10 years as a non-Roman Catholic. And then he went to liturgy and he could understand it because it looked the same as things in the liturgy.

He makes a very valid point that a lot of stuff in the book of Revelation can look liturgical.

But what would the liturgy be all about. In effect his answer does not seem to clarify either the liturgy or the book of Revelation as far as I am concerned, because the definitions of both of them depend on the other one and cannot be understood separate from one another therefor he is just saying that one thing he does not understand means the same as something else he does not understand on account of the something else is a copy of the first thing he did not understand. Of course to be fair he allegedly does understand the liturgy, so it supposedly would not be like I said, but I think it might be like I said in reality.

It could show that watching the liturgy might get you to think more about what is written in the book of Revelation, but that would not actually teach you whatever was meant to be taught, unless you already understood the book of Revelation.

Of course to be fair perhaps if I bought the book (The Lamb's Supper: Mass as Heaven on Earth by Scott Hahn) he was talking about I could understand, but I did not buy the book, I merely watched his T.V. show where he mentioned the book near the end. And also to be fair he allegedly does understand the liturgy

I am wondering people's ideas about this. And just happened to post it because I thought it was interesting so I wanted to share it.

Do you think that if someone merely copies the liturgy like elements in Revelation in the form of literal liturgy based on but not exactly the same as the book, it can actually hide the meaning if one says (in their heart) now that we copied it we do not have to figure it out, because the real purpose was to create this copy we have here?

Or to put it another way

If A is a symbol for B
But instead we say A is a symbol for saying "A" out loud in liturgy but do not think about it as B. One could hide the entire meaning of the book through liturgy and blind people to the truth.
On the other hand if someone hear's "A" in liturgy and knows it is a symbol for B, they can be benefited by the liturgy by being reminded of B which they already know in spite of the fact that it keeps most people in the dark.

Do you think people often ignore the examples of worship of God in the book of Revelation to chase after phrases like "anti-christ" that are not actually in the book of Revelation?

What do you think is the practical application of knowing about the liturgical looking nature of certain events in Revelation?

 

[Anonymous]

My friend,
I rather think the Roman Catholic Church is the subject of a large portion of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, i.e. The whore that sits on the beast. The Roman Catholic Church (IMHO) is not redeemable, because it is totally corrupt and has been from it's inception. It was a gathering of corrupt churches and leaders that agreed to the operation of Constantine's seduction. There is no value for us to study the RCC other than to identify it as one would want to know the difference between edible and poisonous mushrooms. I say this, not to offend anyone, but to suggest that we not flirt with an anti-christ organization.

 

[nicola]

I believe the entire Bible is a book of code on top of code, on top of code....I believe that we must look at all sides to make a clear analysis and interpretation, not neglecting anyone view. I personally, think that many have not even scratch the surface on Revelation, because they are seeing many parts, outside of themselves.

My friend,
I rather think the Roman Catholic Church is the subject of a large portion of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, i.e. The whore that sits on the beast. The Roman Catholic Church (IMHO) is not redeemable, because it is totally corrupt and has been from it's inception. It was a gathering of corrupt churches and leaders that agreed to the operation of Constantine's seduction. There is no value for us to study the RCC other than to identify it as one would want to know the difference between edible and poisonous mushrooms. I say this, not to offend anyone, but to suggest that we not flirt with an anti-christ organization.

Brother, I agree that the RCC is the whore that sits on the beast, but I believe that ALL is capable of being redeemed, including the adversary himself. Our God is love and forgiveness, not allowing forgiveness and love is not His nature. It would be best to state that "you don't believe that those who have gone too far to the left, will ever seek redemption".

 

[Anonymous]

nicola wrote,

Brother, I agree that the RCC is the whore that sits on the beast, but I believe that ALL is capable of being redeemed, including the adversary himself. Our God is love and forgiveness, not allowing forgiveness and love is not His nature. It would be best to state that "you don't believe that those who have gone too far to the left, will ever seek redemption".

I fear that I did not fully state my mind, my apology. I do not mean that Roman Catholic people cannot be redeemed. I was referring to the organization, the structure.

I do believe that as long as a person has breath, there is opportunity to be redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. The likelihood of that happening is purely an individual, case by case issue.

Nicola, The adversary, if you mean the one identified as Satan or Lucifer or Beelzebub, cannot be redeemed. Blood bought redemption is for those created in God's image, mankind, only. The lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[nicola]

Nicola, The adversary, if you mean the one identified as Satan or Lucifer or Beelzebub, cannot be redeemed. Blood bought redemption is for those created in God's image, mankind, only. The lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels.

John,
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1John 2:2

This may be going a little far out there for you, but I believe that the WHOLE world fell, including, but not limited to the Earth, animals, angels, man, etc. So, the WHOLE world has been saved through Christ. Christ restored ALL in this world. Another thing, the only reason why Beelzebub is in charge of Hell now (from my understanding) is he paid homage to Christ in Hell and that's why S, no longer is reigning there. Even though CHRIST reigns over all! With that being stated B, can be forgiven if he asks.

 

[Anonymous]

My friend,
I rather think the Roman Catholic Church is the subject of a large portion of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, i.e. The whore that sits on the beast. The Roman Catholic Church (IMHO) is not redeemable, because it is totally corrupt and has been from it's inception. It was a gathering of corrupt churches and leaders that agreed to the operation of Constantine's seduction. There is no value for us to study the RCC other than to identify it as one would want to know the difference between edible and poisonous mushrooms. I say this, not to offend anyone, but to suggest that we not flirt with an anti-christ organization.

This may be a bit off the original topic....But interestingly, I encountered additional proof of this as I was watching a documentary last night that was produced by Catholics. The topic of the documentary was on demonic possession. Audio tapes were played of priests conducting an exorcism on a young girl and the priests themselves were interviewed in the documentary. The priests were ordering the demons to worship "the holy virgin". This phrase was repeated over and over. There were also other examples of non-biblical beliefs. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I had for many years believed that the RCC was simply another denomination under the larger umbrella of Christianity. I can't believe that anymore. The more I look into it, the more heresy I seem to find.

Another thing, the only reason why Beelzebub is in charge of Hell now (from my understanding) is he paid homage to Christ in Hell and that's why S, no longer is reigning there.

Where in the Bible does it say this ?

Even though CHRIST reigns over all! With that being stated B, can be forgiven if he asks.

Satan's fate is already sealed ! I've read the back of the book and it doesn't end well for him.

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[nicola]

Fairlight, you are right it doesn't end pretty for those on the left (that have LEFT their post to do the RIGHTeous thing). All I'm stating is that if any on the LEFT from L to B, were to ask for forgiveness that the Most High would forgive them. As, far a B replacing L, I believe it's in a Gnostic text, maybe Gospel of Nicodemus (Act of Pilate), unsure to be exact.

 

[Anonymous]

Satan is not in charge of hell. He is not in charge of Sheol or Hades. He will be a captive of Gehanna.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

So is everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches false? Should we automatically assume that anything the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false? If the Bible looks like it teaches something and we later find out the Roman Catholic Church appears to teach the same concept we thought we saw in the Bible, does that mean we were wrong and should abandon what we thought we learned from the Bible because EVERYTHING the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false?

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

dtt said,

So is everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches false? Should we automatically assume that anything the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false? If the Bible looks like it teaches something and we later find out the Roman Catholic Church appears to teach the same concept we thought we saw in the Bible, does that mean we were wrong and should abandon what we thought we learned from the Bible because EVERYTHING the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false?

There's an old proverb that says even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (Obviously a proverb from before the days of digital clocks! :lol: ) Most cults, including the Roman Catholic Church, will have some element of truth in whatever they teach. Unfortunately, any truth that they may have is usually buried so deep in their false teachings that it is hard to find.

We should not base our beliefs on who teaches this or that doctrine, but on the inerrant, inspired, infallible Word of God.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

dtt said,

So is everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches false? Should we automatically assume that anything the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false? If the Bible looks like it teaches something and we later find out the Roman Catholic Church appears to teach the same concept we thought we saw in the Bible, does that mean we were wrong and should abandon what we thought we learned from the Bible because EVERYTHING the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false?

There's an old proverb that says even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (Obviously a proverb from before the days of digital clocks! :lol: ) Most cults, including the Roman Catholic Church, will have some element of truth in whatever they teach. Unfortunately, any truth that they may have is usually buried so deep in their false teachings that it is hard to find.

We should not base our beliefs on who teaches this or that doctrine, but on the inerrant, inspired, infallible Word of God.

So what is wrong with happening to learn their doctrine by watching EWTN when you eat instead of say Jerry Springer, Oprah, Baywatch, etc.

Don't you think EWTN is a better choice than Jerry Springer.... ?

Then one can see their perspective and think about if it agrees or disagree with the Bible or is something not discussed in the Bible, etc.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

DiscussingTheTopic said:

So what is wrong with happening to learn their doctrine by watching EWTN when you eat instead of say Jerry Springer, Oprah, Baywatch, etc.

(Any of those shows will give you indigestion? :lol: :lol: )

I didn't say not to study what the cults teach. In fact, It's good to know what they teach so that we can refute their false doctrine. And maybe, like Paul did on Mars Hill (Acts 17:21-34), find something that we can use to open a dialog with those who are being deceived by that false doctrine.

The best way to know error when we encounter it is to first know Truth intimately, so we need to study Truth before studying and refuting falsehood. Unlike the average Sunday-morning-only "Christian," that does not appear to be a problem for most members of this forum!

 

[Mark C]

So is everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches false? Should we automatically assume that anything the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false? If the Bible looks like it teaches something and we later find out the Roman Catholic Church appears to teach the same concept we thought we saw in the Bible, does that mean we were wrong and should abandon what we thought we learned from the Bible because EVERYTHING the Roman Catholic Church teaches is false?

The most deadly lies consist of mixing just a little bit of rebellion with the Truth. Satan has understood that that technique since Genesis (Bereshiet) 3...and it is part of the reason why Scripture forbids mixing the "clean with the unclean", the "set-apart with the profane", as has been "Church" practice since at least the time of Constantine.

O YHVH, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, "Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things." - YermeYahu (Jeremiah) 16:19

We have inherited more lies from the RCC than most of us are willing or able to accept, and what those who committed the sin of "adding to" and "subtracting from" His Word concerning marriage is only the BEGINNING of it. They changed His Sabbaths, replaced His order of worship with paganism, and committed adulteries (idolatry) even worse than the treachery of her sister Judah (Jer. 3).

When YHVH says "return to Me", He is talking about a return to obedience to Him, a return to the "Father's house", and a return to His "teaching and instruction".