Speaking for myself, I see significant indication in the New Testament (even post crucifixion and resurrection) that the law of marriage and human sexuality given in the Old Testament has not changed. Paul and the other apostles' teaching is in agreement with the instructions given through Moses.
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Shabbat Throughout the Nations
- Thread starter Earth_is-
- Start date
Your lack of a lot of things is very obvious:
Of COURSE it is!!!!
They knew their Master, and that He had NOT changed His own Instruction.
Christians, please help me understand…
I have four boys, most of whom are teenagers. We do not have a communication problem, so I can tell them what to do and they understand perfectly well. If I tell them clearly, once or twice, to do…
natsab.com
Gentlemen, I have met some of you in person and some in the men’s chat. I have been encouraged and challenged greatly by many of you in positive ways over the years, and attribute the survival of my marriage to some of your prays.
It’s pains and saddens me to read a thread like this. We may disagree on the exact interpretation of Romans 14, and what it means for which days and diets, but I challenge any of you to make a case from it that we should quick to judge a brother who is fully convinced of his choice. Or that we cannot fellowship with those who disagree with us. And if we can fellowship, should not ALL our speech be seasoned with grace and salt? Don’t forget that we must give an account for every idle word, and that what we do to the least of these, we do unto HIM.
Shalom
It’s pains and saddens me to read a thread like this. We may disagree on the exact interpretation of Romans 14, and what it means for which days and diets, but I challenge any of you to make a case from it that we should quick to judge a brother who is fully convinced of his choice. Or that we cannot fellowship with those who disagree with us. And if we can fellowship, should not ALL our speech be seasoned with grace and salt? Don’t forget that we must give an account for every idle word, and that what we do to the least of these, we do unto HIM.
Shalom
Romans 15:19
I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ
So no more preaching the Gospel?
That Greek Word "fulfill" can also mean to "to perfect." Or "to carry into effect." Showing us how its done.
Matthew 3:15 (baptism)
But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.
No matter how hard you look - there is not one passage in Scripture that says that the 4th commandment has been done away with, or changed. That doesn't mean you can't worship on Sunday. You can worship each day of the week - including the Sabbath (7th day), and/or Sunday (1st day).
@steve I don't know why, I may be wrong, but I read that as tongue in cheek humour within a serious response.
Yes, sometimes my humor is very obscure.
The statement goes very parallel with my later statement about how we don’t need to hear that they disagree with us. That’s the whole reason that we are shuffled off into this ghetto, because we make them uncomfortable. They don’t need to follow us into it and tell us what they believe.
But, as I said, we are very open to respectful questions and discussion.
I do not understand your responses and having read other posts see an unpleasant pattern.
So why have the powers that be on this platform created a section wherein these discussions may be had ?
Also, please explain how we can fully explore and discuss biblical families and biblical patriarchy WITHOUT torah ?
Surely you can express yourself in a more productive manner in a public platform.
Seriously !!!
Again, as a newbie on this platform I have no idea as to what has transpired before or behind the scenes, HOWEVER, as leadership in ANY sort of organisation there is an unwritten code of conduct, even in our homes as patriarchs there is a uniform code of conduct to the orderly running of our houses, ie. No arguing in front of the kids etc.
Let me give you an example...
I have had some frictional interactions with Samuel however I do not think he nor I have ever thought of referring to one another with the vitriol you have displayed. Samuel actually contacted me directly regarding something he didn't understand regarding me, do you know the outcome of that conversation?
We still did not see eye to eye on it Lol
HOWEVER I respect his viewpoint and he seemingly respects mine and we left it there.
Does that mean we will not have interactions that may have friction in the future? Absolutely not, HOWEVER, I respect his willingness to contact me directly and the conversation that we had, in that we understand each other a little better, even though we may have different standpoint on different issues.
We ALL come from different backgrounds with different experiences so we all have learning to do and opportunities to practice patience and longsuffering, however we ALL have one thing in common, the blood of YAHushuWaH.
We have a cultural saying;
Tongue and teeth will meet but the two will never part.
We are meant to be part of the same body so the least you could do as a moderator is temper your responses and interactions in a way that at least presents a unity in ministry mission even if there isn't a unity in personality or viewpoint.
Shalom Love and Blessings
I personally didn't see one iota of bragging in the original post.
If you check as a moderator should, this topic post thread is in a section entitled
Deeper discussion (theology and more)For exploring the theology of marriage, and many other deep matters of interest
So why have the powers that be on this platform created a section wherein these discussions may be had ?
Also, please explain how we can fully explore and discuss biblical families and biblical patriarchy WITHOUT torah ?
Why make it personal ? Seriously, why?
Deeper discussion (theology and more)For exploring the theology of marriage, and many other deep matters of interest
This is where we are ?!?! Make it make sense!I am a relative newbie on here so I can only say what I see from the outside looking in, so why the perpetual disrespect from yourself to others who you are working with in leadership to steer the ministry ?
Surely you can express yourself in a more productive manner in a public platform.
Are you alluding that shabbat is a NON patriarchal issue ?
Seriously !!!
Again, as a newbie on this platform I have no idea as to what has transpired before or behind the scenes, HOWEVER, as leadership in ANY sort of organisation there is an unwritten code of conduct, even in our homes as patriarchs there is a uniform code of conduct to the orderly running of our houses, ie. No arguing in front of the kids etc.
Let me give you an example...
I have had some frictional interactions with Samuel however I do not think he nor I have ever thought of referring to one another with the vitriol you have displayed. Samuel actually contacted me directly regarding something he didn't understand regarding me, do you know the outcome of that conversation?
We still did not see eye to eye on it Lol
HOWEVER I respect his viewpoint and he seemingly respects mine and we left it there.
Does that mean we will not have interactions that may have friction in the future? Absolutely not, HOWEVER, I respect his willingness to contact me directly and the conversation that we had, in that we understand each other a little better, even though we may have different standpoint on different issues.
We ALL come from different backgrounds with different experiences so we all have learning to do and opportunities to practice patience and longsuffering, however we ALL have one thing in common, the blood of YAHushuWaH.
We have a cultural saying;
Tongue and teeth will meet but the two will never part.
We are meant to be part of the same body so the least you could do as a moderator is temper your responses and interactions in a way that at least presents a unity in ministry mission even if there isn't a unity in personality or viewpoint.
Shalom Love and Blessings
Well done.I have had some frictional interactions with Samuel however I do not think he nor I have ever thought of referring to one another with the vitriol you have displayed. Samuel actually contacted me directly regarding something he didn't understand regarding me, do you know the outcome of that conversation?
We still did not see eye to eye on it Lol
HOWEVER I respect his viewpoint and he seemingly respects mine and we left it there.
Does that mean we will not have interactions that may have friction in the future? Absolutely not, HOWEVER, I respect his willingness to contact me directly and the conversation that we had, in that we understand each other a little better, even though we may have different standpoint on different issues.
I, too, have had personal interactions with almost all on these threads with whom I have disagreed. With one notable exception, they have proved productive, whether or not there was a "meeting of the minds."
But there comes a point at which I believe - strongly - that BF makes a very grave mistake by putting too much power in the hands of those who are ultimately not seekers of Truth, but "scoffers" motivated by power over others.
And as the real leadership team at BF is aware, that is why I have, and continue, to refer to an area allegedly intended to allow "iron to sharpen iron," as The Ghetto.
Because of how power corrupts when it is unchecked.
PS> For those who are 'newbies' here, and are offended at frank discussion about elements of faith "as Written," where there is real and often substantial disagreement, there is a tool available:
It is to go a profile, and set "ignore". I have found it effective in the past when there is simply to potential for a genuine discussion.
But it does NOT work on a 'moderator'. I have expressed this concern to BF leadership as well.
It is to go a profile, and set "ignore". I have found it effective in the past when there is simply to potential for a genuine discussion.
But it does NOT work on a 'moderator'. I have expressed this concern to BF leadership as well.
That’s a good question. There needs to be a better solution. The idea originally was to corral and segregate the quite intense debates that were taking over the forum around Torah. Things have gotten much better but it’s not working completely.
No one said the Torah can’t be referred to or quoted or used as a basis theological debates. We can not allow a certain denomination of believers who call themselves Torah keepers to try and convert everyone to their denomination.
It’s not personal. I can be a little over the top sometimes. I am high strung and very emotive. It has its good points and bad points.
Yes.
Don’t forget how Jesus , Paul, Isaiah, Elijah and a host of others dealt with religious elites. People who put themselves forward as teachers and leaders have a high standard and no expectation of being treated with kid gloves. @Mark C and @Earth_is- have a history of trying to be teachers. When the say stupid stuff they should expect to receive a swift and hard response.
If their “teaching” can not stand up to scrutiny then it should be ridiculed. If it can stand up to scrutiny then no harm no foul. Remember we just got the Chik-Fil-A Hypothesis presented to us as theological reasoning, followed immediately by the I Can’t Bank on Sunday Fallacy.
That individual now has the opportunity to base his beliefs on something a little more robust. There is much to recommend men butting heads over important issues.
Definitely however I can assure you that vitriol is NOT the solution.
In this thread you have literally come into an area designated for such conversations to oppose the conversation within the area it is allowed to take place. It doesn't wash.
And not everyone "calls themselves" anything, I have received interesting new labels since joining this platform and I simply call myself a disciple of YaHushuWaH.
If you are aware then control yourself. At this point in time whatever good you are referring to is being grossly outweighed by the bad.
Saying words to the effect of "it's just me it's just the way I am" is not respectable as a man nor is it conducive for anyone who is in a leadership position that people look to.
I disagree
Now take a moment to think again about those references when speaking about those on here.
Jesus/YaHushuWaH spoke against the pharisees who were not simply so called religious elites he said they were of their father the devil.
Paul was speaking against those who were leading disciples OUT of The Faith into ANOTHER gospel
Elijah and Isaiah were against false prophets.
Is that what you think about those who you have engaged with such venom here?
This is not about kid gloves it's about respect and disrespect.
By all means if you believe their teaching does not hold up to YOUR yard stick then ridicule their teaching NOT the person.
If you believe they are false prophets or false teachers or workers of Satan then say it direct like a man like YaHushuWaH/Jesus did.
Reading through your responses is becoming unedifying and whatever benefit anyone could glean from what you are communicating is buried underneath lines and lines of unnecessary vitriol.
Yes I could say alot to many others on here, we can all do better, myself included, but, neither I nor they, are moderators or staff members.
You are obviously intelligent and love the things of YAH, sadly, you are just doing yourself a disservice and affecting others in the process.
Shalom Love and Blessings
Oh no, I helped reinstate this section. It was never designed to allow Torah keepers the space to try and insinuate every one is required to keep Torah. That is the opposite of what it was designed for.
And I don’t judge you for being wrong brother. You can be wrong and not have it invalidate your honored role in the ecclesia.
It’s where I believe many of our mistakes end up leading the unstable. I have seen too many men apostasize out of the Torah community and they all take the same path. They say that he Law is unaltered ever at all and they end up having to jettison the entire New Testament, and if you don’t have a New Testament then you don’t have a Messiah. This is that important.
I’m sorry but false teaching doesn’t deserve respect.
Lol... you are a funny guy.
I dont think there would be any value in discussing this with you, based on previous interactions, if I said the sun was hot and water was wet, you would find a way to avoid a direct question and give an alternate explanation.
I was referring to the person not the teaching.
Anyway it is what it is, you have your position, if you are happy with your conduct and the way you interact, then
I have stated my position so I take my leave from this discussion and thread.
Shalom Love and Blessings
I am a funny guy! I don’t get enough credit for that. Everyone gets all fixated on my preternatural good looks and commanding presence and no one ever compliments me on my sense of humor. Thank you! I needed that bit of encouragement.