J
James A
Guest
God men then women. The man is suppose to lead the women closer to God. And men are able to when in line with God directly let God speak with out causing mental hardship
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Should a woman be a pastor?
- Thread starter Rose of Sharon
- Start date
J
James A
Guest
Anna was not a preacher
J
James A
Guest
I agree with you on your statement
True... God used a donkey one time, but that doesn't mean it is His normal course of action. Nor does it mean that we should listen to all donkeys.
The point is that even with Deborah or Anna, His use of a woman is highly unusual and outside the scope of His system as imaged and taught throughout Scripture. Further, in neither case is the Father teaching or offering 'law.' I.e., we have no recorded 'revelation.'
Blessings.
Pro 31:1 The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.
Pro 31:2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
Pro 31:3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Pro 31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Pro 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
Pro 31:8 Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
sounds like teaching and doctrine to me
we all use it to teach as doctrine the role of a woman.
Pro 31:2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
Pro 31:3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Pro 31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Pro 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
Pro 31:8 Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
sounds like teaching and doctrine to me
we all use it to teach as doctrine the role of a woman.
Yeah, but....
My mom taught me many wise things, but she doesn't belong in the pulpit. She was doing what a Godly mom is supposed to do.
My mom taught me many wise things, but she doesn't belong in the pulpit. She was doing what a Godly mom is supposed to do.
The words of king Lemuel, the massa that his mother taught him.
massa': burden
Original Word: מַשָּׂא
Part of Speech: noun masculine; noun masculine
Transliteration: massa'
Phonetic Spelling: (mas-saw')
Definition: a burden; specifically, tribute, or (abstractly) porterage; figuratively, an utterance, chiefly a doom, especially singing; mental, desire:--burden, carry away, prophecy, song, tribute,
First and Foremost, She was not teaching using Prophecy. If your familiar with the culture you know that proverbs 31 is a song meant for teaching what an Eishet Chayil (Woman of Valor) is suppose to be like and edifies women who are true representations and what to look for in a wife. It is not to be confuse with a Psalm which is a song meant to praise. This proverb was taught to Lemuel by his mother. It doesn't say written by her. Even if it was, mothers can teach their sons songs. That's not instruction given to a man.
Proverbs 1:8
Hear, my son, your father’s instruction
and forsake not your mother’s teaching.
Proverbs 6:20
My son, keep your father’s mitzvah,
and forsake not your mother’s teaching.
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Pro 31:1 The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.
Pro 31:2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?
Pro 31:3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Pro 31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
it seems this instruction was given to him after he became king not to him as a child.
Not clear from the text, therefore eisegetical.
I read thru this portion of scripture, I don’t see any reason his mother couldn’t have taught that to him as a young lad. For instance, “the prophecy that his mother taught him”. You may be correct, but he still could have been taught these things in preparation for kingship.
It just says :The words of King Lemuel, the massa that his mother taught him.
His words that he wrote as King.
That he was taught by his mother at some point. Once again I would like to point out it was first and foremost a teaching method use by parents, who are instructed to teach their children. Later it became part of Rabinical tradition to sing it in Shabbat service, several hundred years after the fall of the second temple.
Nothing to say he was taught after he was King.
But it does say that it's his words, that his mother taught him. Meaning he wrote it down, not his mother writing the Proverb. So it would be him teaching others.
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Irrelevant . I don’t know anyone who denies God will deliver an individual message through a woman. It’s clearly attested to in the New Testament.
Something else I would like to point out is that I teach my sons what it means to be a man and what is expected of them as a man, at this time. I have journals I'm writing for them so they can refer back to. They says things like:
"A man is to be strong and bold in his faith."
"A man who comes to an understanding because it justifies his flesh and personal beleifs, instead of coming to an understanding that validates scripture despite his flesh and personal beleifs is a slave to his desires."
"A man should seek the the wisdom of God in scripture asking for discernment through the Ruach Hakodesh before he takes his questions to another for guidance and then test the Spirit to see if it was man's own understanding or the Ruachs revalation, by going back to scripture once again."
"Yeshua leads a man to obey the Father not into lawlessness."
I teach them as children so that when they become men they won't have to learn the hard way.
In 30 years, if someone picked up the journals, would they assume they were written to teach men or boys if they didn't know the culture of my house that my sons were raised in?
Why would any wait to teach a King until after he was a King?
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This is true. In the past God has used a donkey and even threatened to use rocks. God will use whom he wills. There is no doubt about that.
Thank you for creating this thread! Typically, we (myself included) mistakenly apply the Biblical Husband / Wife hierarchy to all Male / Female relationships yet I've come to realize the Scriptures repeatedly have women in positions of authority in both the Old and New Covenants.
Examples of women in ministry/authority in Scripture:
Examples OT:
Examples NT:
Response to 1 Timothy 2:12:
There’s no distinction between the words “wife” and “woman” in Greek; both English words translate the same Greek word γύνη; gynē.
There's no distinction in Hebrew either, the word is ishshah; אִישׁ (H376) or אֱנוֹשׁ (H582).
Therefore, whether talking about a woman or a wife one must look at context. Here is the 1 Tim 2:12 passage:
Here is Young's Literal Translation properly utilizing the word "husband" which implies the word "woman" ought to be "wife."
Translated properly it would read "and a wife I do not suffer to teach nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness."
This train of thought, that wives ought to be in submission to their husbands and not ruling over them, is consistent with the Scriptures.
Wives submitting to their husbands does not imply submission to all men in general and does not negate a woman's ability to be placed into authority by God, or else Priscilla would have been scolded for doing so in Acts 18:26.
Priscilla teaching Apollos:
In Acts 18:24-26, Apollos is "a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures" who "taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John." Upon hearing him, Priscilla and her Husband both brought him to their home church (1 Cor 16:19) and BOTH "explained to him the way of God more adequately."
If being intellectually honest, this is a male & female pastoral team teaching a "learned man" the gospel more accurately.
Response to 1 Timothy 3:
The very next chapter presents another indicator that women were serving as Overseers/Elders/Deacons as they are given specific instructions within the qualifications listed in 1 Timothy 3:1-13.
Overall, I believe in the Biblical headship of a husband over his wife/wives while also accepting God's prerogative to place women in ministerial offices within His Church if He sees fit to do so. In the Last Days (today), the same Holy Spirit dwells in both sexes and we have no right to limit that Spirit.
Prophesy is no small word. Prophesying is precisely what Moses, Isaiah, John the Baptist, and many others have done and now women are capable of the same.
May the Lord bless you, Brethren!
Examples of women in ministry/authority in Scripture:
Examples OT:
- Miriam (Prophetess – Exod 15)
- Huldah (Prophetess – 2 Kings 22)
- Deborah (Prophetess & Judge – Judges 4-5)
- Esther (Esther)
- Ruth (Ruth)
- Naomi (Ruth).
- Huldah (Prophetess – 2 Kings 22)
- Deborah (Prophetess & Judge – Judges 4-5)
- Esther (Esther)
- Ruth (Ruth)
- Naomi (Ruth).
Examples NT:
- Junia (Apostle – Rom 16:7)
- Priscilla (Teacher/Pastor – Acts 18:26, Rom 16:3-5, 1 Cor 16:19)
- Nympha (Pastor – Col 4:15)
- Phoebe (Deacon – Rom 16:1-2)
- Phillip’s Daughters (Prophetesses – Acts 21:8-9)
- Mary & Women (First Preachers of the Gospel & Resurrection to men – John 20:11-18, Luke 24:9-11, Matt 28:5-7, Mark 16)
- Samaritan Woman (Evangelist – John 4:39)
- Euodia & Syntyche (Ministers – Phil. 4:2-3)
- Priscilla (Teacher/Pastor – Acts 18:26, Rom 16:3-5, 1 Cor 16:19)
- Nympha (Pastor – Col 4:15)
- Phoebe (Deacon – Rom 16:1-2)
- Phillip’s Daughters (Prophetesses – Acts 21:8-9)
- Mary & Women (First Preachers of the Gospel & Resurrection to men – John 20:11-18, Luke 24:9-11, Matt 28:5-7, Mark 16)
- Samaritan Woman (Evangelist – John 4:39)
- Euodia & Syntyche (Ministers – Phil. 4:2-3)
Response to 1 Timothy 2:12:
There’s no distinction between the words “wife” and “woman” in Greek; both English words translate the same Greek word γύνη; gynē.
There's no distinction in Hebrew either, the word is ishshah; אִישׁ (H376) or אֱנוֹשׁ (H582).
Therefore, whether talking about a woman or a wife one must look at context. Here is the 1 Tim 2:12 passage:
διδάσκειν (to be teaching) δὲ (but, yet) γυναικὶ(woman) οὐκ (not) ἐπιτρέπω,(I am permitting) οὐδὲ (not but, yet)
αὐθεντεῖν (???) ἀνδρός,(man, husband) ἀλλ’(but) εἶναι (to be) ἐν (in) ἡσυχίᾳ.(quietness)
αὐθεντεῖν (???) ἀνδρός,(man, husband) ἀλλ’(but) εἶναι (to be) ἐν (in) ἡσυχίᾳ.(quietness)
Here is Young's Literal Translation properly utilizing the word "husband" which implies the word "woman" ought to be "wife."
"and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness," - 1 Tim 2:12 YLT
Translated properly it would read "and a wife I do not suffer to teach nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness."
This train of thought, that wives ought to be in submission to their husbands and not ruling over them, is consistent with the Scriptures.
"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." - Ephesians 5:22 NIV
Wives submitting to their husbands does not imply submission to all men in general and does not negate a woman's ability to be placed into authority by God, or else Priscilla would have been scolded for doing so in Acts 18:26.
Priscilla teaching Apollos:
"He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately." - Acts 18:26
In Acts 18:24-26, Apollos is "a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures" who "taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John." Upon hearing him, Priscilla and her Husband both brought him to their home church (1 Cor 16:19) and BOTH "explained to him the way of God more adequately."
If being intellectually honest, this is a male & female pastoral team teaching a "learned man" the gospel more accurately.
Response to 1 Timothy 3:
The very next chapter presents another indicator that women were serving as Overseers/Elders/Deacons as they are given specific instructions within the qualifications listed in 1 Timothy 3:1-13.
"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." - 1 Tim 3:11
Overall, I believe in the Biblical headship of a husband over his wife/wives while also accepting God's prerogative to place women in ministerial offices within His Church if He sees fit to do so. In the Last Days (today), the same Holy Spirit dwells in both sexes and we have no right to limit that Spirit.
"‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy." - Acts 2:17-18
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy." - Acts 2:17-18
Prophesy is no small word. Prophesying is precisely what Moses, Isaiah, John the Baptist, and many others have done and now women are capable of the same.
May the Lord bless you, Brethren!