Speaking in tongues; actual languages or prayer language?

[Scoop]

I found this thread and I am always compelled to share my testimony on this point, just because of the very unique and personal way God revealed this to me. Several years ago when my wife and I were actively seeking out churches and just trying to learn as much as possible about everything spiritual, we finally found our way into a pentecostal church. There was a great amount of nonsense going on in this one church in particular, for one there was virtually no preaching just a worship service and lots of "ecstatic" activity. So of course being a believer and enjoying the praise and worship I wanted to experience this gift that EVERYONE at this particular church seemed to have. So I would try to get into the mode of things but it all seemed SO CONTRIVED. However, I read the scriptures and came to the conclusion that there were two types of tongues mentioned. I felt like one was for interpretation and one was for edification in private prayer, and that neither were for EVERYONE in any congregation. I could see that there was much contrived fakery going on for the sake of fitting in. That being said, personally I had serious faith issues over it, and was in my heart very very skeptical and very doubtful that my interpretation was correct almost to the point of disbelief or even maybe that it was something that had truly ceased. I am one that shuns the contrived and I felt like much of this was going on for show. Months later my wife was out of town visiting family and I was alone in the house. I spent some time in praise and worship alone, just spending time with God, I was also reading scripture and praying. This is when God took the reigns. I had just finished a passage of scripture and not thinking too deeply on what it could relate to, I read through the remainder of the chapter and began praising God by singing. This is when it happened, I began speaking uncontrollably in that "Heavenly tongue". It burst forth from me to my complete shock! For nearly an hour this continued, I began messaging and sharing with my wife because it literally would not stop. I found that I was also able to think independently and text and pray in tongues. Since that day I pray regularly in the heavenly tongue, I don't have to muster any emotion, work up anything like that, I just can do it on demand. Thats how God proved it to me IN my skepticism. I do not do this in company, only with my wife and children, and most of all in private prayer. I went back afterwards to review the scripture I had read, and thats when the realization just hit my spirit that this was completely true. This is the verse: Ephesians 5:18-19 "And be not drunk with wine wherein is excess; but be filled with the spirit; speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord". That day made a huge impact on my faith. I believe that I was given this gift to balance out my analytical mind and let me experience God in a different way, as well as to intercede for others when prompted. I also believe God did this in private in the way he did so I could not feel that it was contrived.

 

[FollowingHim2]

That's a great testimony, @Scoop, love it!

for one there was virtually no preaching just a worship service

Some churches try to recreate the feeling of the Holy Spirit by creating 'atmosphere' using music and worship. To the point where if someone is speaking giving their testimony, there will be music playing, sometimes so loud you can barely hear what the person is saying so they need a microphone. It's ridiculous and drives me nuts.

 

[Frank S]

Here is a book with an interesting perspective...

https://www.amazon.com/Corinthian-Catastrophe-George-Gardiner/dp/0825427088

 

[rockfox]

Last Pentecostal church I visited it was plain that they were attempting to create an emotional fervor and literal hysteria. Which they then could call a move of the Holy Spirit.

 

[rockfox]

I found this thread and I am always compelled to share my testimony on this point, just because of the very unique and personal way God revealed this to me. Several years ago when my wife and I were actively seeking out churches and just trying to learn as much as possible about everything spiritual, we finally found our way into a pentecostal church. There was a great amount of nonsense going on in this one church in particular, for one there was virtually no preaching just a worship service and lots of "ecstatic" activity. So of course being a believer and enjoying the praise and worship I wanted to experience this gift that EVERYONE at this particular church seemed to have. So I would try to get into the mode of things but it all seemed SO CONTRIVED. However, I read the scriptures and came to the conclusion that there were two types of tongues mentioned. I felt like one was for interpretation and one was for edification in private prayer, and that neither were for EVERYONE in any congregation. I could see that there was much contrived fakery going on for the sake of fitting in. That being said, personally I had serious faith issues over it, and was in my heart very very skeptical and very doubtful that my interpretation was correct almost to the point of disbelief or even maybe that it was something that had truly ceased. I am one that shuns the contrived and I felt like much of this was going on for show. Months later my wife was out of town visiting family and I was alone in the house. I spent some time in praise and worship alone, just spending time with God, I was also reading scripture and praying. This is when God took the reigns. I had just finished a passage of scripture and not thinking too deeply on what it could relate to, I read through the remainder of the chapter and began praising God by singing. This is when it happened, I began speaking uncontrollably in that "Heavenly tongue". It burst forth from me to my complete shock! For nearly an hour this continued, I began messaging and sharing with my wife because it literally would not stop. I found that I was also able to think independently and text and pray in tongues. Since that day I pray regularly in the heavenly tongue, I don't have to muster any emotion, work up anything like that, I just can do it on demand. Thats how God proved it to me IN my skepticism. I do not do this in company, only with my wife and children, and most of all in private prayer. I went back afterwards to review the scripture I had read, and thats when the realization just hit my spirit that this was completely true. This is the verse: Ephesians 5:18-19 "And be not drunk with wine wherein is excess; but be filled with the spirit; speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord". That day made a huge impact on my faith. I believe that I was given this gift to balance out my analytical mind and let me experience God in a different way, as well as to intercede for others when prompted. I also believe God did this in private in the way he did so I could not feel that it was contrived.

So do you still feel what you experienced in that church was a contrived public act, contrary to genuine (necessarily private) experience? Or did your experience change your mind?

 

[Scoop]

So do you still feel what you experienced in that church was a contrived public act, contrary to genuine (necessarily private) experience? Or did your experience change your mind?

Yes, it was definitely in that situation. I think the trouble lies in teaching that all have the gift of tongues which is a clear contradiction. Many churches I've been too teach this and to me it causes confusion, because you may have some in the congregation who genuinely pray in a heavenly tongue, and others who are motivated to "work up" some kind of emotional experience. This is only my personal testimony. I get emotional, but only because I can feel the spirit moving as I speak. Theres really nothing very dramatic about it besides that inner move. But I can initiate that at anytime I'm moved to pray, during prayer, or a special purpose. My son for the last 2 years suffered a serious skin condition. We had been praying for him all along. One day his mother was gone and we were alone (interesting now that i'm thinking about that). God spoke to me to take him to my bedroom away from his siblings and lay hands on him and pray over him in the spirit. Within a two week period he began to dramatically heal.

 

[steve]

Most people don’t understand the difference between one’s prayer tongue and the gift of speaking in tongues.
It gets abused in public and causes people to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[rockfox]

Most people don’t understand the difference between one’s prayer tongue and the gift of speaking in tongues.
It gets abused in public and causes people to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Please enlighten me.

Yes, it was definitely in that situation. I think the trouble lies in teaching that all have the gift of tongues which is a clear contradiction. Many churches I've been too teach this and to me it causes confusion, because you may have some in the congregation who genuinely pray in a heavenly tongue, and others who are motivated to "work up" some kind of emotional experience.

That's been my appraisal, but then I'm not fully settled on the truth of the matter. It seems everyone is either against or anything goes with little discernment in between.

 

[steve]

Mark 16:17 (KJV)
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

If you don’t do either of these, something is missing. Period.

People get all caught up in the arguments over what some call “wildfire”. Ecstatic stuff.
The truth is that if the enemy cannot extinguish it he will encourage its misuse. Always one ditch or the other. Misuse is what people judge it by.

So Yeshua tells us that we will do this, that means that it is available to all or else he wasn’t telling the truth. It is the private prayer tongue which is available to all, it is not intended to be used in public gatherings. Unless in a non-dramatic way like a short prayer or communal prayer with everyone praying together.
The gift of tongues, which must be accompanied by interpretation, is what is done in public. And even then in limited amount.
Yah doesn’t control how you use or abuse your prayer tongue, thus all of the instructions curtailing it. But it is of Yah and it is one of the most useful tools available to us.

If you read the Word with an open mind and judge reasonably you can see whether each time it is brought up it fits in the private or the public gift category.

 

[rockfox]

Mark 16:17 (KJV)
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;...So Yeshua tells us that we will do this, that means that it is available to all or else he wasn’t telling the truth.

Ok, let's quote that entire passage in context...

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will follow those who [d]believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18they[e] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So do you also baptize when someone comes to belief?
Do you also believe taking up serpents without harm, drinking poison without harm, and laying hands on the sick and them being healed are things given to every believer? Would you pick up a cottonmouth? Have you ever failed to heal someone?

Or maybe are those just the kinds of things evidenced in the church generally and not each believer specifically?

As Paul says...

27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Not all are given to be prophets or gifts of healings or toungues. Otherwise Paul wouldn't say in Eph 4 that 'some' were given as prophets. Otherwise Paul wouldn't be able to wish...

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; [a]for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

So I fail to see how this is something given to all; that's not consistent with the text.

If you read the Word with an open mind and judge reasonably you can see whether each time it is brought up it fits in the private or the public gift category.

When I read 1 Corinthians I don't see any mention of two different types of tongue gifts. It's one gift, but in public circumstances needs an interpreter. Where do you find that idea?

 

[steve]

So do you also baptize when someone comes to belief?

.
Notice that baptism is directly connected with when someone becomes a believer. No one questions whether or not a follower of Yeshua should witness to a non-believer and help them become a believer. In fact, this is expected of each and every one of us. It is not one of the gifts.
So what are the qualifications for continuing the next step with baptism? It doesn’t say to bring the new believer to the pastor or the elders for baptism.
Have I baptized? What would disqualify me? Yes, I have, but generally I am just one part of the whole and it happens organically as you would expect.

Do you also believe taking up serpents without harm, drinking poison without harm, and laying hands on the sick and them being healed are things given to every believer? Would you pick up a cottonmouth? Have you ever failed to heal someone?

You cannot treat this list as a checklist for any person or group.
I have already proven that a minimum of one of the actions is expected of every believer.

As far as snakes and poison, we only see one instance in the book of Acts where either of these was walked out.
Paul was bitten in the course of gathering firewood and he picked it up and threw it in the fire. He didn’t choose to engage the snake, the snake chose him and he bested it.
I dont recall anyone drinking poison. These weren’t something that we are commanded to do for show, Yeshua was simply telling them/us that if it happens we are under his protection and he will have the final say over what the results are.

Every time I pray for healing for someone I fail to heal them. I don’t have the gift of healing.
But that doesn’t prevent me from praying for healing and, as Yah wills, sometimes healing occurs. More often than I deserve.
And yes, I have cast out spirits, to the great relief of some.

Or maybe are those just the kinds of things evidenced in the church generally and not each believer specifically?

Obviously, whoever it is expected of is failing spectacularly.
But most of this list is expected of us on some level, whether personally or corporately.

Not all are given to be prophets or gifts of healings or toungues. Otherwise Paul wouldn't say in Eph 4 that 'some' were given as prophets..........
So I fail to see how this is something given to all; that's not consistent with the text.

Some are gifts, but you can see that they don’t all belong in that category.

When I read 1 Corinthians I don't see any mention of two different types of tongue gifts. It's one gift, but in public circumstances needs an interpreter. Where do you find that idea?

1 Corinthians 14:18-19 (KJV) 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.

Paul doesn’t do it with bullet points, but how else can you understand this statement? He clearly differentiated between speaking in tongues more than all of them and speaking at an assembly.
Was he being a braggart, or was he simply challenging them about their private prayers?
He is attempting to fix a problem, the problem of people thinking that their prayer tongue was the gift of speaking in tongues and filibustering the meetings.
We are never instructed specifically on the difference because it was assumed that the recipient of the letter had that understanding.

 

[Edward]

I was there when a private I knew who was always tying to share the word with the locals started talking to a couple of men in english. Our translator was telling him that they only spoke Pashayi when they started understanding what was being said to them then they start asking questions in Pashayi and we understood them. Thats the only instance I can say for sure that I know speaking in tongues was genuine

Acts 2:4-11 KJV And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (9) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, (10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

If you look up the word tongue you will find it means...

G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.
Total KJV occurrences: 50

Did you notice, a language "specifically one naturally unacquired".

That is what you experienced in Afghanistan.

 

[Edward]

About 22 years ago we were down in the bowels of Mexico attending a service and there was a time in which it was offered that us gringos would pray for whoever desired it.
I was asked to pray for an older gentleman and 1) I don’t speak Spanish, 2) I had no clue in my head as to what to pray for. So I hauled off and let fly with my prayer tongue.
Afterward another local man came up to me and asked me if I had known what I had prayed. I told him that I didn’t know and he proceeded to tell me that I had prayed for this man’s life and walk with the Lord in Italian.
Cool. I was just the conduit.

This passage was you.
Acts 2:4-11 KJV And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (9) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, (10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

 

[steve]

This passage was you.
Acts 2:4-11 KJV And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (9) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, (10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Yes
It can happen

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is so simple. Paul prayed in private tongues all the time. He didn’t want it in the congregation with out interpretation. This tongues has nothing to do with the miraculous speaking of foreign languages like occurred on Pentecost. Next.

 

[IshChayil]

Most people don’t understand the difference between one’s prayer tongue and the gift of speaking in tongues.
It gets abused in public and causes people to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I was invited to speak at a Pentecostal conference here one time; there were hundreds of Pentecostals there (that's much bigger than what I'm used to). Anyway, I got a bit fervent and excited at one point about something and when I made my point it seemed like the whole arena exploded in tongues! I was taken aback but the energy was awesome. but.... it also felt like they were accustomed to respond that way when the preacher said something emphatically after building for a while you know what I mean?

For me tongues is a very private experience with Hashem that happens rarely; usually if I'm very moved pleading about something important. A friend of mine noticed that if he spent x amount of time daily praying in tongues he'd consistently have spiritual dreams. Has anyone else noticed a connection like that?

 

[IshChayil]

Acts 2:4-11 KJV And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (9) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, (10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

If you look up the word tongue you will find it means...

G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.
Total KJV occurrences: 50

Did you notice, a language "specifically one naturally unacquired".

That is what you experienced in Afghanistan.

The Greek word for "tongues" as in the gift, is not just glossa but glossalalea (compound word glossa "tongue" + lalea "talking") though Paul will sometimes just write glossa which just means "language"

 

[rockfox]

1 Corinthians 14:18-19 (KJV) 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.

Paul doesn’t do it with bullet points, but how else can you understand this statement? He clearly differentiated between speaking in tongues more than all of them and speaking at an assembly.
Was he being a braggart, or was he simply challenging them about their private prayers?
He is attempting to fix a problem, the problem of people thinking that their prayer tongue was the gift of speaking in tongues and filibustering the meetings.

I don't see how you get that from that passage. He makes no mention of private prayers or of them confusing prayer tongue with gift of speaking in tongues. He's simply stating that, although he speaks tongues more than them, he'd rather speak a few words people understand than 10 thousand ones they don't.

The problem, isn't confusing two gifts, that's never stated, the problem is speaking toungues that people in attendance don't understand; that's what the 11 verses preceding your quote were saying. Hence his conclusion..."If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret."

We are never instructed specifically on the difference because it was assumed that the recipient of the letter had that understanding.

Assumed? Or read into the passage? Is there any text anywhere else that makes it clear there is a difference between the two?

 

[steve]

As I said earlier, there are no bullet points. It is never explained in foolproof language.

I walk in this truth and appreciate the fruit that I see in my life and in my family.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I found this a while back but just remembered this thread.

The earliest I’ve found references to of profane babbling.

There is said to be a certain village called Ardabau in that part of Mysia, which borders upon Phrygia.234There first, they say, when Gratus was proconsul of Asia,235 a recent convert, Montanus by name, through his unquenchable desire for leadership,236 gave the adversary opportunity against him. And he became beside himself, and being suddenly in a sort of frenzy and ecstasy, he raved, and began to babble and utter strange things, prophesying in a manner contrary to the constant custom of the Church handed down by tradition from the beginning.237

8 Some of those who heard his spurious utterances at that time were indignant, and they rebuked him as one that was possessed, and that was under the control of a demon, and was led by a deceitful spirit, and was distracting the multitude; and they forbade him to talk, remembering the distinction238 drawn by the Lord and his warning to guard watchfully against the coming of false prophets?239 But others imagining themselves possessed of the Holy Spirit and of a prophetic gift,240 were elated and not a little puffed up; and forgetting the distinction of the Lord, they challenged the mad and insidious and seducing spirit, and were cheated and deceived by him. In consequence of this, he could no longer be held in check, so as to keep silence.

9 Thus by artifice, or rather by such a system of wicked craft, the devil, devising destruction for the disobedient, and being unworthily honored by them, secretly excited and inflamed their understandings which had already become estranged from the true faith. And he stirred up besides two women,241 and filled them with the false spirit, so that they talked wildly and unreasonably and strangely, like the person already mentioned.242 And the spirit pronounced them blessed as they rejoiced and gloried in him, and puffed them up by the magnitude of his promises. But sometimes he rebuked them openly in a wise and faithful manner, that he might seem to be a reprover. But those of the Phrygians that were deceived were few in number.

"And the arrogant spirit taught them to revile the entire universal Church under heaven, because the spirit of false prophecy received neither honor from it nor entrance into it.

10 For the faithful in Asia met often in many places throughout Asia to consider this matter,243 and examined the novel utterances and pronounced them profane, and rejected the heresy, and thus these persons were expelled from the Church and debarred from communion."

11 Having related these things at the outset, and continued the refutation of their delusion through his entire work, in the second book he speaks as follows of their end:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/antimontanist.html