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Anonymous
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Isabella wrote,
I don't understand what it is in the quote of mine that makes you sad.
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The land that feminism forgot
- Thread starter Doc
- Start date
The whole thing made me sad but the fact that it isn't a joke, a tease or some quote from a pantomime villain is even more worrying. I understand it is your true feelings and beliefs, I respect that but I don't feel they are beliefs that are compatible in any way, shape or form with the kind of world I want to live in or raise the next generation of females in.
They are the ideals of the stone age, the anachronism of the obsolete, it doesn't bear any resemblance to my ideals, but of course, being an Anti Christ I guess I would say that.
Bels
They are the ideals of the stone age, the anachronism of the obsolete, it doesn't bear any resemblance to my ideals, but of course, being an Anti Christ I guess I would say that.
Bels
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Anonymous
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donnag said:
I would like you to know that John Whitten is a true gentleman. He has great respect for women and always has had. I have often been amazed by the depth and sincerity of his compassion towards both women and men. It is no mistake that God called him to be a pastor. He has the heart of a true shepherd.
Blessings,
Fairlight
Taller on my knees
Member
In my line of work I have personally seen this play out a few times. Most of my friends in law enforcement have mentioned the same phenomena more than once and I came to the same observation as you. Unfortunately, in most of those cases, both parties are rebelious to any authority.
The feminist movement did bring a great deal of positive change to a world given over to the sinfull nature of the flesh. Abuse always arises when a person's lusts are left unchecked. In this case, it is the law of man that had to remedy the ills wrought by man's disobedience to the laws of God.
But, as most causes of social justice tend to do, it has gone beyond it's original purpose and sought to dominate the former oppressor. In many ways, feminism is much like our current labor unions. They were needed to protect the working poor from employers who cared for nothing but thier own wealth, but now they are forcing thier old masters into bankrupcy by demanding too much. Modern feminism now creats an environment that debases the role of any man in a woman's life, Godly or not.
If men would have adhered to the commands of God and remained benevolent in thier authority, there would have been no cause for man's laws to be mended. Now we are stuck in a society that shuns any form of authority because the men who had it in thier hands sought only thier own desires and became tyrants.
I wish there were an easy answer to solve the dilema in which we live, but there is not. The best that we can do is rise up as Godly men AND women, step up to the plate again and show the world once more what God intended from the begining. Only by letting our lives stand as a testament do we have any chance of balancing our society.
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Anonymous
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Taller On My Knees wrote,
Well said, sir. I believe your view of balance is the most likely victory we may attain. It seems to me that for too long we have equated Americanism with Christianity. The two are not the same, but Christ through His people have had a profound impact on America. Unfortunately we seem to be seeing a shift in the influence available from Christians toward America, largely, in my opinion, because far too many Christians are seeking the American dream above Christ. We are spiritually short circuiting. Perhaps if all of us stood taller on our knees we would have a larger impact for our Lord on our world. I agree with your assessment. It is my goal, my desire to help men become men of God, making a difference where we live.
Taller on my knees
Member
Amen.
anewday
New Member
Can someone help me understand that there are some on this site that speak of being a Patriarch. Yet it seems when he posts something and another may disagree or what ever, a woman jumps in and defends him! Does a real Patriarch seek the woman's approval, need the woman's approval and last but definitely not the least, does a true Patriarch need a woman to defend him? If she defends his actions and motives on this site, where does it start abd where will it stop? I truly think the man is the leader and Patriarch, therefore he does not need a woman to defend his actions and motivers. If he is true to his calling, is teaching bible, and knows his place, he does lnot need a woman to defend him. He is well able to carry his own weight!! Am I wrong? I truly want to learn.
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Anonymous
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anewday wrote,
1. I do not seek any womans approval.
2. I do not need any womans approval.
3. I do not need any one to defend me.
4. Any one that approves of me or defends anything I have said or done, does so on their own initiative. The same goes for disagreeing with me. I don't know anyone that agrees with another person on every issue.
Do you truly want to learn? I also want to learn, first thing I want to learn is why this is such an issue with you. People agree and disagree with each other here all the time. Is there something that I have written that you disagree with?
Please let me know. If it is because I was not clear spoken, I will try to be more clear. If it is because I did not present good Biblical support, I shall try to remedy that. If it is because you think I am wrong, then I will listen to you and perhaps change my mind, if you present a convincing argument. But, if want to question my manhood and status as a patriarch, let me know about that also. I will do my best to give you sufficient clarity of who I am. If you want to attack my friends for supporting me, then that is a horse of a different color. I will defend my friends and their right to agree or disagree with me with every bit of energy and power I have.
Personally, I don't see you asking a question or seeking to learn anything, rather, I see you trying to stir up trouble. If such is the case, that is not acceptable. I await your response.
Considering the context, I assume you are referring to me.
1. I do not seek any womans approval.
2. I do not need any womans approval.
3. I do not need any one to defend me.
4. Any one that approves of me or defends anything I have said or done, does so on their own initiative. The same goes for disagreeing with me. I don't know anyone that agrees with another person on every issue.
Do you truly want to learn? I also want to learn, first thing I want to learn is why this is such an issue with you. People agree and disagree with each other here all the time. Is there something that I have written that you disagree with?
Please let me know. If it is because I was not clear spoken, I will try to be more clear. If it is because I did not present good Biblical support, I shall try to remedy that. If it is because you think I am wrong, then I will listen to you and perhaps change my mind, if you present a convincing argument. But, if want to question my manhood and status as a patriarch, let me know about that also. I will do my best to give you sufficient clarity of who I am. If you want to attack my friends for supporting me, then that is a horse of a different color. I will defend my friends and their right to agree or disagree with me with every bit of energy and power I have.
Personally, I don't see you asking a question or seeking to learn anything, rather, I see you trying to stir up trouble. If such is the case, that is not acceptable. I await your response.
I want to put my two cents worth in. I am one of those women who is quick to defend patriarchs. However it is not to defend the patriarch but to defend the woman who has chosen to be submissive. There are women on this board who believe (right, wrong or otherwise) that to be submissive is to give up our rights as humans and to become weak. One of my goals on this forum is to help women see that their strength comes from following their God given commandment to support their husbands and thereby support God. I know that there is not one man on this board who needs me to support them, but I bet there are those who appreciate it anyway. They would not likely change their course because of anyone disagreeing with them, but if someone supports their ideas, the world can be a much friendlier place. I have found many times that the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies to patriarchal men especially. If I want someone to read what I have to say it is much nicer to say it kindly than with a lot of hate and bitterness attached.
SweetLissa
SweetLissa
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Anonymous
Guest
Thank you, sweetlissa. Well said.
I applaud your stedfastness in difficult times and pray for the new adventures your family is embarking upon.
John Whitten
I for one have appreciated your well thought out and reasonable posts and comments. You demonstrate quite well that being a godly woman, does not diminish a womans genuine and powerful effectiveness in todays world.
I applaud your stedfastness in difficult times and pray for the new adventures your family is embarking upon.
John Whitten
Donnag wrote:
Who ever trivialized a womnn who chooses a career over a family? I don't recall seeing that anywhere. I think it is presumptuous to assume that this is happening. What I see and what I have experienced is that husbands and wives make choices. These choices are made by talking about what their family goals are and interpreting what they believe is God's ideal for their lives. In most patriarchal families, the husband has the final say-so and it is presumed that he is following God's leading. If a woman is submissive she will consider her husbands opinion to be the same as God's opinon. Not saying that our husbands are God but that we believe God is leading our husband.
Some families believe that having many children and having the wife stay home and build the home from within is the most important thing. Other families believe that all the members of the family should work outside the home. Some families believe in something in the middle. I was never fortunate enough to have children but if I had I would have raised them myself instead of paying someone else to raise them. Daycare providers spend far more time with the children than their own parents do (at least awake time) and so I call it what it is. If God blessed me with a child I would take that as his will for me, to raise my child to follow after God.
My point is that just because we don't all strive to have what someone else has doesn't make us inferior or less people than others. It makes us different. My husband and I decided that it was best for me to work outside the home as well as him. This serves our short term goals and will get us to our long term plans faster. But that doesn't make me any more or less important than a woman who has 8 children and makes her career out of raising them.
I believe that my importance and my strength as a woman comes from following God's will on my life. It has nothing to do with being second class or being inferior to my male counterpart. No matter how much he begs God he will never be able to carry a child. Without women the human race would die off. Without men, the human race would die off. We are all created equal, we just don't have the same jobs.
And if anyone really believes that women have a second place to men, they should try actually submitting to their husband's will for a little while. When a wife is submissive in heart, will and deed, she will have more power over him and her own life than she ever imagined. When a woman is following after her husband (truly, not just begrudgingly) she will have his undying trust. When she has his trust she has his ear and then she can help in the creation of their lives. It is when a woman begrudgingly follows her husband that women feel they are second class citizens.
I have done the feminist thing. I have done the submissive thing. I will take submission to a Godly man every day for the rest of my life.
SweetLissa
Who ever trivialized a womnn who chooses a career over a family? I don't recall seeing that anywhere. I think it is presumptuous to assume that this is happening. What I see and what I have experienced is that husbands and wives make choices. These choices are made by talking about what their family goals are and interpreting what they believe is God's ideal for their lives. In most patriarchal families, the husband has the final say-so and it is presumed that he is following God's leading. If a woman is submissive she will consider her husbands opinion to be the same as God's opinon. Not saying that our husbands are God but that we believe God is leading our husband.
Some families believe that having many children and having the wife stay home and build the home from within is the most important thing. Other families believe that all the members of the family should work outside the home. Some families believe in something in the middle. I was never fortunate enough to have children but if I had I would have raised them myself instead of paying someone else to raise them. Daycare providers spend far more time with the children than their own parents do (at least awake time) and so I call it what it is. If God blessed me with a child I would take that as his will for me, to raise my child to follow after God.
My point is that just because we don't all strive to have what someone else has doesn't make us inferior or less people than others. It makes us different. My husband and I decided that it was best for me to work outside the home as well as him. This serves our short term goals and will get us to our long term plans faster. But that doesn't make me any more or less important than a woman who has 8 children and makes her career out of raising them.
I believe that my importance and my strength as a woman comes from following God's will on my life. It has nothing to do with being second class or being inferior to my male counterpart. No matter how much he begs God he will never be able to carry a child. Without women the human race would die off. Without men, the human race would die off. We are all created equal, we just don't have the same jobs.
And if anyone really believes that women have a second place to men, they should try actually submitting to their husband's will for a little while. When a wife is submissive in heart, will and deed, she will have more power over him and her own life than she ever imagined. When a woman is following after her husband (truly, not just begrudgingly) she will have his undying trust. When she has his trust she has his ear and then she can help in the creation of their lives. It is when a woman begrudgingly follows her husband that women feel they are second class citizens.
I have done the feminist thing. I have done the submissive thing. I will take submission to a Godly man every day for the rest of my life.
SweetLissa
Taller on my knees
Member
Hello Anewday.
I am sorry to say that this is my first opportunity to welcome you to the forum. I am always glad to see people seeking a deeper understanding of our beloved Creator and His Word. I do not know the spirit behind your post, but it did seem to have an acusatory edge to it. I do not know if this was your intent or not. The problem with typing something, rather than saying it, is that you can not hear the nuances and inflection of the speaker's voice.
With that said, let me also invite you to share as you wish, but in a spirit of brotherhood. We all have different backgrounds which have shaped our thinking, but we all are now steering our thoughts in the same dirrection. While we all share the same destination, we have different starting points for our journey, therefore, our courses can differ widely.
1 John 1:7 says "...if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another." Because we are all brothers in Christ, we share the same goals, and through this we can find common ground no matter where our journey started. Forums are made to share differing ideas, but we must always remember that we do have a place of common ground. Let us reason together, speaking the truth in love.
As to the questions that you posed, I feel that a true patriarch is a man who is tempered with wisdom and love. He earns the respect of his wife and she is free to defend his position when another would disagree. Why silence the voice that would glorify you?
The man is the head of the woman. The head makes the descisions and determines what the body should do. I have never seen a real person's head, being of completely sound mind, make descisions for thier body that would purposely harm the body. Instead, the head makes decisions that strengthen and protect the body.
A man does not need a woman to defend him, but I see nothing wrong with her doing so. This highlights his wisdom and strength that she has come to trust, thereby, displaying his greatness to the rest of the world. When she does this she becomes a crown upon his headship, letting the world know that he is a man worthy of following. If you are blessed to have such a crown in your life, I say polish it until it gleams.
Can someone put my mind at rest though, are there any wives supporting their husbands on this thread though? Because what I have seen are women supporting men they respect (fair enough) but I don't think the whole submissive wife thing is relevant in this respect, I am a bit taken aback by the bleeding together of wives submitting to husbands and women submitting to any man that happens to have an opinion!
Of course, I believe that any partnership can conduct itself how the people involved wish as long as it is consensual but I would not support the idea that a man should be submitted to for just being a man.
I just think when an unrelated female jumps into an argument, especially if they react in a defensive or hostile manner (not accusing anyone on this thread by the way, just a general observation) you begin to wonder what her problem is or whether she is just desperate for male attention, regardless from where it comes.
So, I suppose, as for anything, it is better to speak your own mind and if you wish to support someone you respect, examine your words to make sure you are not coming across as sycophantic or (unreasonably) defensive.
Bels
Of course, I believe that any partnership can conduct itself how the people involved wish as long as it is consensual but I would not support the idea that a man should be submitted to for just being a man.
I just think when an unrelated female jumps into an argument, especially if they react in a defensive or hostile manner (not accusing anyone on this thread by the way, just a general observation) you begin to wonder what her problem is or whether she is just desperate for male attention, regardless from where it comes.
So, I suppose, as for anything, it is better to speak your own mind and if you wish to support someone you respect, examine your words to make sure you are not coming across as sycophantic or (unreasonably) defensive.
Bels
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Anonymous
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Isabella wrote,
One of the benefits of this group is that everyone, irregardless of gender, is free to speak their mind and to agree or disagree as she chooses. The ladies that I have read on BF are among the most intelligent, free thinking that I have encountered anywhere. As Talleronmyknees pointed out recently, we are all from different starting points on our journey into truth, but hopefully we are all headed in the same direction. I don't see the majority of women on this site, submitting to men in general because of his male "right". The ladies here speak their mind quite well and are certainly spunky enough to know what they are doing.
In the early 70's I was engaged in a friendly debate (argument) with my youngest brothers wife. I was losing badly, so I resorted to a cheap shot defense. I said to my brother, "Terry, tell your wife that women are told in the Bible to be submissive". Before he or I could respond, she said, "to their own husbands" and you are not my husband. I was sorely defeated and knew it!
She is a very sweet lady who trounced all over me, because she knew the reality of what the Bible says and would not take a back seat unless she chose to. The issue of submissiveness in the Bible is most generally between the husband and wife ( a voluntary response only). Women are not obligated to be submissive to men in general. God created women with brilliant minds as well as He did men and He wants them to use them efficiently. A woman that chooses to relate to her husband in the way God designed is doing a beautiful thing, such behavior enhances her beauty. She is not obligated or expected to show the same relationship to other men. She should treat other men and women with the common courtesy and respect due another human being.
I have been reading through old posts that were posted before I joined this BF. It is an interesting read. One of the things I've noticed is that there are many women here that have agreed with and support their husband's positions and have even, occasionally defended their position. It does seem that there could be many more that could if they wished. I am guessing that many women do not see the need to speak up in defense of their husband. There could be many reasons that doesn't often happen. I can't recall a post where it appeared that a woman endorsed her husbands opinion out of obligation or to be submissive to her husband. I do see a lot of posts from women whose husbands rarely if ever, post or comment themselves. I am also guessing this may be because of time constraints or interest. It's all good. It also appears that there are many occasions when an unrelated woman agrees with or defends a man position. Never have I thought that this was the result her having a personal problem/s or that she was desperate for male attention.
One of the benefits of this group is that everyone, irregardless of gender, is free to speak their mind and to agree or disagree as she chooses. The ladies that I have read on BF are among the most intelligent, free thinking that I have encountered anywhere. As Talleronmyknees pointed out recently, we are all from different starting points on our journey into truth, but hopefully we are all headed in the same direction. I don't see the majority of women on this site, submitting to men in general because of his male "right". The ladies here speak their mind quite well and are certainly spunky enough to know what they are doing.
In the early 70's I was engaged in a friendly debate (argument) with my youngest brothers wife. I was losing badly, so I resorted to a cheap shot defense. I said to my brother, "Terry, tell your wife that women are told in the Bible to be submissive". Before he or I could respond, she said, "to their own husbands" and you are not my husband. I was sorely defeated and knew it!
She is a very sweet lady who trounced all over me, because she knew the reality of what the Bible says and would not take a back seat unless she chose to. The issue of submissiveness in the Bible is most generally between the husband and wife ( a voluntary response only). Women are not obligated to be submissive to men in general. God created women with brilliant minds as well as He did men and He wants them to use them efficiently. A woman that chooses to relate to her husband in the way God designed is doing a beautiful thing, such behavior enhances her beauty. She is not obligated or expected to show the same relationship to other men. She should treat other men and women with the common courtesy and respect due another human being.
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Anonymous
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Thanks Isabella, she really is cool. She is strong, sweet, kind, intelligent and gentle among other things. Losing my brother to a stroke 3 years ago is the hardest thing she has ever experienced. She is doing well, though. I am proud of her. They started dating around 14 and then married about 20. Married about 30 years when he passed. She is a great Mom and Grandma.
To be fair on the Dutch Donnag, that sort of write up (unsure of the proper journalistic phrase) is very typical of the Daily Mail, it is notoriously anti working Mother, this kind of article is nothing new.
Bels
http://youtu.be/MMb8Csll9Ws
Bels
http://youtu.be/MMb8Csll9Ws
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Anonymous
Guest
Isabella said:
Speaking for myself....I never venture forth with an opinion unless I truly believe it. If I comment in support of someone else, it is because I honestly believe what they have said. No man has ever asked me to defend him and I don't think I would be too impressed with any man who did.
I don't believe that women need to be submissive to men, in general...simply because they are men. I do believe that the Bible teaches that wives are to be submissive to their husbands and daughters are to be submissive to their fathers. The question is one of authority, not gender. Husbands and fathers have a God ordained authority over their families. An unrelated male has no authority over any female.
Blessings,
Fairlight