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the transgendered

steve said:
i ran across a persistant rumor about a hollywood actress who, as the rumor goes, was born with both sets of genetalia and the parents opted for eliminating the male part.
the only indication that the rumor may be true is that her children are all adopted, which would be normal for that particular problem.

not that art imitates life, but she co-starred in True Lies :lol:
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That old chestnut!! Some claimed her unisex name as supporting evidence, however, her father said a few years ago in an interview that both she and her older sisters names were chosen before they were born and were purposely chosen as unisex. Her sister is Kelly.

B
 
steve said:
sharing a bed? i was not suggesting an intimacy that would equal the intimacy of the other wives.

i am not sure what your opinion is based upon, but no :) . i could elaborate in a private message, if you so desired.
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I guess what I'm saying is that if this TG person is going to assume the role as your wife, but in the non-sexual way, over time she might crave the affection in other areas especially if she was a sexual person in the past, like you share with the first wife. In the beginning, you and her might agree to have a non-sexual relationship but things could change down the road. Then you would be faced at making a very difficult decision. I don't really have anything to base my opinions on just that I try and put myself in the other person's shoes.
 
steve said:
Jim said:
steve said:
can we patriarchs provide a (non-sexual) family to those who were born as our same gender but now look more like our wives?
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How marriage?
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it would not be the one-flesh union that we were designed for, but it could be a caring, loving, protective, committed relationship.
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Oh, then a close friendship, maybe like a brother? Would this "male friend" move in?
 
lutherangirl said:
I guess what I'm saying is that if this TG person is going to assume the role as your wife, but in the non-sexual way, over time she might crave the affection in other areas especially if she was a sexual person in the past, like you share with the first wife. In the beginning, you and her might agree to have a non-sexual relationship but things could change down the road. Then you would be faced at making a very difficult decision. I don't really have anything to base my opinions on just that I try and put myself in the other person's shoes.
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This is a very good point actually, it is like saying 'Well I will treat you like a woman for the purposes of your position in my home but you will sleep alone for the rest of your days.....

As if there isn't enough comparison issues amongst sisterwives, try selling that one!!!

B
 
Jim said:
[
Oh, then a close friendship, maybe like a brother? Would this "male friend" move in?
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That is unspeakably crass.
 
Isabella said:
Jim said:
[
Oh, then a close friendship, maybe like a brother? Would this "male friend" move in?
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That is unspeakably crass.
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Not so, caring for a TG man who repented of his homosexuality is a good thing. But I don't understand what kind of relationship Steve is talking about. There is marriage and there is friendship. It almost sounds like a polgamous marriage with two males and one female. Male is male even if TG with female parts. Sorry if you don't understand where i'm coming from. People can repent of something, but that doesn't mean the temptations go away.
 
Jim said:
Sorry if you don't understand where i'm coming from. .
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I am sorry that you don't seem to understand the difference between transgendered and homosexual. Gender and sexuality do not always correspond, there are many transmen who identify as gay males and many transwomen who identify as lesbians.

So before spouting off you may like to educate yourself.

B
 
mo.nurse said:
B,,, play nice ;) ;) ;)
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Excuse me?

I am not playing, this is not a game with pretend plastic people, these are real people, real lives that people are being disrespectful about, you may not like the choices they make but you need not be disrespectful and dismissive.

I know many fine transgendered people who have had it pretty tough, not because they were not happy with the choices they made, but because other people were not happy with the choices they made. I think myself very lucky I was happy with the body I was given because I would not want to walk in their shoes and face what they face.

It is not much to ask for people to be knowledgeable and respectful, Steve asked nicely for respect from responders, I did not consider what Jim said in the spirit of things and I dislike being patronised for stating the obvious.

B
 
Isabella said:
Jim said:
Sorry if you don't understand where i'm coming from. .
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I am sorry that you don't seem to understand the difference between transgendered and homosexual. Gender and sexuality do not always correspond, there are many transmen who identify as gay males and many transwomen who identify as lesbians.

So before spouting off you may like to educate yourself.

B
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When you say that "there are many transmen who identify as gay", are you then in agreement with me? Are we not speaking about a transmen who underwent surgery to remove his male parts? Maybe with the intent to be with another man? If i'm missing something please point it out.
 
Isabella said:
mo.nurse said:
B,,, play nice ;) ;) ;)
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Excuse me?

I am not playing, this is not a game with pretend plastic people, these are real people, real lives that people are being disrespectful about, you may not like the choices they make but you need not be disrespectful and dismissive.

I know many fine transgendered people who have had it pretty tough, not because they were not happy with the choices they made, but because other people were not happy with the choices they made. I think myself very lucky I was happy with the body I was given because I would not want to walk in their shoes and face what they face.

It is not much to ask for people to be knowledgeable and respectful, Steve asked nicely for respect from responders, I did not consider what Jim said in the spirit of things and I dislike being patronised for stating the obvious.

B
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I know now where you are coming from. My dad always said, don't judge someone until you have walked in their shoes. Guess that's something we all should think about. But as you said, referring to TG, "these are real people", so am I.
 
Jim said:
I know now where you are coming from. My dad always said, don't judge someone until you have walked in their shoes. Guess that's something we all should think about. But as you said, referring to TG, "these are real people", so am I.
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I realise that Jim and I am sorry I was impatient with your lack of knowledge on the subject, I suppose it is presumptuous to suppose that everyone has the same level of exposure to Transgendered people as I have.

A trans woman is a male to female transsexual and a transman, is a female to male. So, if a transman identifies as a gay male, he would, supposing he was in a relationship with a born male, not be considered a homosexual under Biblical laws, similarly a transwoman who identifies as a lesbian (which many do) therefore it depends entirely upon whether you choose to accept a transperson as their adopted gender or their birth gender.

B
 
Hey all,

Sorry I am late to the thread, but it has been a busy week for me!

I can speak from experience on this topic, as I once had a repentant transgendered individual in the church I started in Topeka. This individual had once been a man, but had all the operations and hormonal treatments to be a woman.

David/Danielle visited our church and wanted to be involved in the music. This individual was quite talented on the keyboard, and seemed to truly love the Lord.

I wrestled with myself as to 'what' David/Danielle was, and I eventually concluded that a choice had been made, and now he/she had to live with the consequences.

As to participation in the ministry of the church, Danielle proved to be a loyal, talented member of our volunteer staff. She chose to remain celibate, having repented of her choice, yet also chose to identify as a woman. At that point, there was no way she could appear otherwise...she was by all appearances a woman.

I took some heat from other pastors who knew of Danielle, and who had basically shunned her from their congregation. I didn't mind....I felt that I was doing what Jesus would do.

And that's all I know about frogs.

Doc
 
B, You know, I don't mind reading and being involved in a controversial sensitive subject as transgender. But I mind very much if a person makes
comments that are demeaning and judgemental.
It is okay to be passionate about subjects, but believe it or not, there are people on this forum that are pretty intelligent and humble about it.
Have you ever volunteered to a crisis hotline? I have. Do you know not only
the physiology of tg and the history of how it was treated medically in the
past. I do. How about the psychological ramifications of being one sex and knowing deep down you are the other? It has nothing to do with homosexuality. Some of these people were surgically altered at birth and
who made the decision on which sex they were? Parents, Doctors.
And no PM was not the venue for this.
 
Doc wrote:
As to participation in the ministry of the church, Danielle proved to be a loyal, talented member of our volunteer staff. She chose to remain celibate, having repented of her choice, yet also chose to identify as a woman. At that point, there was no way she could appear otherwise...she was by all appearances a woman.
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In your opinion, and having actually ministered to this person, would it have been a sin had she not remained celibate, but would have chosen to marry someone?

I have no intention to be judgmental, but rather, I'm trying to sort out as much as I can about the right thing to do if/when I might minister to a repentant transgendered individual as you did.

My gut reaction is that should Danielle have married a man, she would have been in a homosexual relationship in spite of the surgery and hormone treatments irrevocably changing her appearance. Had she married a woman, it would appear to be lesbianism, because of the surgery/hormone treatments irrevocably changing her appearance. But maybe that is said by me from the same type of cultural bias that causes the monogamy-only crowd to call polygyny a sin...

If someone like Danielle showed up at a church where I was pastor (and I'm not pastoring right now) there is no way I could tell that person to go elsewhere. But I have no idea what I would say to such a person should (s)he ask me if it would be OK to enter into marriage with someone.

I think you did the right thing, Doc.
Matthew 8:3 NKJV Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, "I am willing; be cleansed." Immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
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The word translated as "touched" means "to fasten one’s self to, adhere to, cling to." (Thayer's Greek Definitions.) In other words, Jesus hugged the leper. That was just not done in that culture.

In our modern evangelical church culture, we just don't associate with people like Danielle. That is, unless we have the same love in our hearts that Jesus had in His.
 
DocInMO said:
Hey all,

Sorry I am late to the thread, but it has been a busy week for me!

I can speak from experience on this topic, as I once had a repentant transgendered individual in the church I started in Topeka. This individual had once been a man, but had all the operations and hormonal treatments to be a woman.

David/Danielle visited our church and wanted to be involved in the music. This individual was quite talented on the keyboard, and seemed to truly love the Lord.

I wrestled with myself as to 'what' David/Danielle was, and I eventually concluded that a choice had been made, and now he/she had to live with the consequences.

As to participation in the ministry of the church, Danielle proved to be a loyal, talented member of our volunteer staff. She chose to remain celibate, having repented of her choice, yet also chose to identify as a woman. At that point, there was no way she could appear otherwise...she was by all appearances a woman.

I took some heat from other pastors who knew of Danielle, and who had basically shunned her from their congregation. I didn't mind....I felt that I was doing what Jesus would do.

And that's all I know about frogs.

Doc
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Thank you for that story Doc, it means a lot to know that people can be accepting and embracing.

B
 

I am pretty certain I don' t know what you are talking about. And I was simply challenging your right to tell me what to do, Jim has responded to me, I have made my peace with what he said and the assumptions I made. Your interference was unwanted and unnecessary.

B
 
Unwanted? REALLY!! I have just as much right especially in a subject that
I know personally. You did not answer my questions.
I have been patient and have allowed you to run roughshod over my feelings.
Why are you so rude? I will not respond again to this thread, so have at it.
 
doc, that was awesome, who'da thunk that there would be an experience so close to home? all of the sudden it is much less abstract.
my heart goes out to that person.
 
I want to apologize to others responding to this post. Steve, your insightfullness and compassion toward this very difficult topic is very apparent. Doc. you too,Wow, I can't think of anything so packed full psychological and spiritual trauma.,, but God is faithful who will not give us more than we can handle. He will always make a way to escape so that we are able to bear it. (paraphrased lCor.10:13). That is my life verse. God brought me to that scripture when my daughter died. It's the one that keeps me going when I really just want to give up. Marv.thank you also. I enjoyed reading the other post that you, Keith and Todd are so wrapped up with.
Yes, I have dealt with the medical aspect of this subject. Some of the stories are so filled with pain and anger. Yes, society is so intolerant of anything outside of their narrow world. Like polygyny, they were kicked out of their family and ostracized by friends and coworkers. Usually the only people that accepted them were the homosexual community or they isolated themselves.
dede
 
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