• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

The truth is dangerous... but only for the Luke warm

Elijahsfire

Elijahsfire

Member
Male
Ok. First post! How to start? I just wanted to post some very real observations I've made over the last few years. This is a very broad subject but I will try anyway.
So the "culture war" has come to a boiling point especially the last 5 yrs roughly. Militant feminism, abortion, gay marriage, evolution,Islam and any number of issues has such zealous support on the left at this point. If we were judge the state of the western world on just media, we could come to the conclusion that true Christiandom has lost. Even looking at the church is looks pretty sad with people rejecting bible truth and embracing all sorts of evils. I don't have to even tell you about "Christians" jotyfully supporting gay marriage but freaking out if you bring up polygyny. Bring up many truths makes them shriek like a sick bat.
On the flip side, I've also been watching another group rise up. I don't mean just in one denomination but many identify with Messianic Judaism and the Hebrew roots movement but not just them I mean across the board. I meet them in the coffee shop, in the book store. People that love truth and no longer looking to the professionals for guidance. They no longer want to follow doctrines of men but what the word of God has to say. I have had so many conversations with people where polygyny gets dropped in casually and the will actually be suprislingy open about it! Even if in a whisper. Common things discussed is many have grown weary of pastors trying to make the Darwinian paradigm fit the biblical narrative or any number of issues. I remember just a few years ago people were scared of even looking at the biblical feast days and what they mean. I remember bringing up the feast day to Christians in the past and they were almost like "do you worship the devil or something. Jesus did away with all that." To now you have a growing group of believers that in the midst of this changing world going back and questioning everything.
I just see a separation taking place even if in its infancy. Like a veil being pulled back. Many being blinded and others scale just falling off. Am I the only one seeing this?
 
The internet is facilitating a second reformation in approximately the same way the printing press facilitated the first one--through a huge power transfer from one class to another, with all the confusion and struggle that entails. As they say, "May you live in interesting times."

Our role at Biblical Families is limited to helping people get their minds around what the bible teaches about marriage and family. Some of us see that as a sort of refinement of a system that's basically working, some of us see it as a fundamental paradigm shift that changes everything, but all of us agree it's a profoundly important battleground in the so-called 'culture wars'.

Elijahsfire said:
...but not just them I mean across the board.
Click to expand...
It's not clear what you meant by this, because you went on to mention Old Testament feast days to illustrate your point about people being open to truth. If you're trying to associate an understanding of biblical plural marriage with a commitment to Hebrew roots Christianity, then there are folks here who would argue with you, and then the moderators will stop that argument and refer everybody to the threads here that already hash out those issues. If you're taking a broader approach to observing and approving the way people are stepping away from conventional "Churchianity" and asking questions, and illustrating that with your own experiences, then we're all definitely on the same page!
 
@Elijahsfire no, you are not the only one. I believe there are a mix of reasons that individuals are rethinking and taking a watchful eye to see something is not right. Some of which is reading and searching the scriptures for ones self.
I have come across Pastors that preach but it doesn't line up to what the word says. Then to have a discussion with them and they can't provide a G_dly explanation rather a manly one. To mis its a bit problematic. Like how Constantine changed the calender. Which is not true, more so the day of worship. When individuals start searching even out the basics of things. I can only see and I am sure others can see man has changed things to suit their agendas.
When you find one untruth, it starts the ball moving to search out others. The desire for truth is then born.
 
If you're taking a broader approach to observing and approving the way people are stepping away from conventional "Churchianity" and asking questions, and illustrating that with your own experiences, then we're all definitely on the same page!
Click to expand...
Yes! We are on tbe same page! I will say certain messianic and Hebrew roots groups have been a springboard for many people but so have small bible study groups.
 
Elijahsfire said:
Yes! We are on tbe same page! I will say certain messianic and Hebrew roots groups have been a springboard for many people but so have small bible study groups.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly! I have come to the point where I really don't care what your doctrinal beliefs are outside of a very limited criteria, as long as you demonstrate that you are on a search for truth. I can fellowship and have a good time with other believers of all stripes!

It is so past time for those of us who say we follow Christ to stop navigating our course based upon someone else's communication with the Father! It's the Holy Spirit that will lead us and guide us into all truth. This is as important today as it was in the First and Second Century AD for knowing them by their fruits.

Following after truth? Check
Being led into truth? Check
Fear God? Check
Love the Brethren? Check
Christ is LORD? Check

Party time!!!!
 
I believe your perceptions are correct.

The reduction in "traditional" church attendance is real, but when reactionaries point to a devolution of religion in this country, they are only partially correct. There seems to be a shift to non-traditional alignments (Hebrew centric approaches being only one element).

But, this phenomenon is not unique in Western/ American Christian history. I know there are examples in the Eastern and African church, but I am not as familiar with them. I will try to be brief, and go off memory (no links, sorry).

Prior to the Reformation as we know it, there were always little groups and movements that tried to refine or reconstitute a more scriptural approach to scripture, salvation and worship. But, the RCC was so powerful and entrenched that these groups just couldn't break through to make enough of a difference. Luther actually stood on the shoulders of great men who came before him, but were killed off by the religious authorities.

After Luther, we find groups (most know of the Puritans and Separatists in England, but there were others) that saw either the the decadence of the established churches or the diversion from strict biblical exposition as reasons to either protest again, or leave altogether.

Fast forward again, and we find the roots of the "Fundamentalist" revival in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Modern psychology and philosophy had invaded established churches so much that the clearly stated creeds and traditional views of Christology and scriptural integrity were being openly questioned or denied. The Scopes "monkey" trial regarding evolution teachings in the classroom best exemplified the religious times.

Now, the once proud fundamentalist churches are finding themselves the target of those who want further refinement of the faith. It's like any upstart movement that has sway amongst the masses. Eventually, the Reformers get power, become comfortable, and become the establishment that others find distasteful.

As @andrew said, the Internet has served to facilitate this movement in ways the established churches could not foresee.

But, I do want to caution my fellow BF posters. There is an interesting American phenomenon unique to upper New York State that saw a plethora of offshoot Christian and pseudo Christian movements develop in the mid to late 19th century. Some of them developed around utopian ideals. Others were more metaphysical. Some concentrated on health. Others were just outright heretical and non-Orthodox.

Challenging the status quo can be invigorating, but always test the spirits of any group, be wise as serpents, meditate on the Law of God day and night. Some movements may sound enticing, but just be careful of what you are getting into.
 
ZecAustin said:
no resolution reached
Click to expand...
Not exactly. The matter is resolved according to the framework VV76 laid out above, or as stated on our about us info on the website. But your main point is well-taken, and I appreciate your reassuring EF that he's not alone.
 
I guess what I meant by saying there's no resolution is that both sides remain unconvinced of the other side's claims. After the last go around I was more entrenched in my opinion and I think most people were.

It's just an issue to not debate but I think it should be talked about, maybe each should only discuss it between themselves. I think both sides should be free to talk about their understanding of it without trying to get others to agree with them or without others trying to change their minds.

If you've staked out a side on this debate then nothing external is going to change your mind.
 
ZecAustin said:
If you've staked out a side on this debate then nothing external is going to change your mind.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Only the internal working of the Holy Spirit can do that for us, as is right. The cool thing about this is that if He is the one leading each of us, we'll all end up at the same place, though perhaps not at the same time. Thus grace must be evident in each believer for another who is seeking truth. God has each of us where we are for the season that we are there. When we've learned what we were supposed to, He will lead us to other, green(er) pastures.
 
Just two notes. First is something Andrew said: that the internet has sparked a new Reformation. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated. The Reformation was spawned by technology. The movable type printing press made the mass production of written materials feasible. Suddenly we see the growth of nationalism with the standardization of vernacular scriptures. Popular literacy and the 'technology' of the book changed everything. (cf. Marshal McLuhan). However, the change in society and culture was not without casualties (cf. Reggie McNeal - Present Futre): which leads to the second point. Our society tends to think of 'truth' as 'factual propositions about things' : (i.e. science and the rule of empirical materialism.) While there is definitely a place for this sort of thinking, the modern version of science is a very poor handmaiden to theology.
For Christians, the ultimate question of 'truth' can never be 'what', but rather 'who.' There is only one absolute truth, and he has a name. He is the way and the Truth. He is not subject to being owned or controlled by anyone else, much less reduced to a doctrinal or denominational position. Yes, we should entirely be passionate for Truth in proposition and principle, but we should be so because it partakes of the quality of the divine person who we love. By comparison, many doctrinal arguments (sadly) can be reduced to one person insisting that he or she is right about things . . .and someone else is merely wrong. Keeping Jesus central . . . is really what keeps us faithful . . . and in love.
 
ABlessedMan said:
Keeping Jesus central . . . is really what keeps us faithful
Click to expand...

But therein lies the rub. It has divided the two 'rebellious wives' at least since Constantine and Marcion, and Shaul/Paul warned about "another jesus, whom we have not preached" even earlier. And as can be readily seen, it remains a key, and divisive, issue still.

Scripture (Deut. chapters 7, 12, 13, 30, and so on) give us clear criterion as to what the Meshiach, and "prophet like unto Moses," would do, and NOT do. His character matters more more than what we call Him. But the annual cycle Torah parsha some of us study today, (Matot, including Numbers chapter 30) is perhaps the most succinct of all: He WILL honor the Word that came from His mouth.
 
ZecAustin said:
If you've staked out a side on this debate then nothing external is going to change your mind.
Click to expand...
If you've staked out a side on this debate, you're doing it wrong.

Romans 14 teaches that we answer to God, not each other, and that there are going to be points of conduct and belief we don't agree on, and we can get over it. Or not, human nature being what it is.

Jesus is clearly more concerned with our humility and love for each other than he is with our self-righteousness and self-importance.

An important component of humility is realizing that our finest minds are finite on our best days, before you get to personality quirks and the role of experience and education, which is before you get to any besetting sins or 'thorn in the flesh' unresolved issues. Each of us has a perspective, each of us is an observer, each of us has a history, and each of us is a finite being (usually with 'issues') trying to explain what we understand about an infinite being. (Check out the story of the six blind men and the elephant if you're not familiar with it--here's a poem that says it pretty well.)

With that in mind, there are no "sides", only perspectives and narratives. We each have a point of view and a story to tell.

There is a difference between a 'peace' and a 'truce'. There will always be factionistas who want to divide the body into 'us' and 'them' (everybody that agrees with me and everybody else), some of whom are willing to call a truce and call it peace, but they're not really fooling anybody. Meanwhile, I'll stand by what I said above:
andrew said:
The matter is resolved according to the framework VV76 laid out above, or as stated on our about us info on the website.
Click to expand...
 
ZecAustin said:
I still think Romans 14 endorses a two track system here with both sides commanded to fellowship and not fight...much.
Click to expand...
Agreed if you change "two" to "multi" and put a period after "fight".
 
More specifically, we're not commanded not to fight, we're commanded not to judge each other's beliefs and actions, which is a much higher standard and keeps you from even getting to fighting.

Zec, you and I each have an exorbitant number of children. Do you encourage yours to police each other and boss each other around, or do you encourage them to bring their differences of opinion to you? Which is more important to you—who's right and who's wrong, or maintaining the harmony of your home and training your children to love each other and look out for each other? Do you reward a child that is always fault-finding and bringing you complaints, even when that child is clearly motivated by pride and competition and a desire to see someone else hurt, and clearly has no or very little interest in what's best for the other sibling, or in the honor and authority of the father? How do you feel about overachievers who are always trying to prove how right they are about everything? Does that make you proud? Or do you wonder what sorts of deep insecurities are motivating that child to always need to try to prove something?
 
andrew said:
More specifically, we're not commanded not to fight, we're commanded not to judge each other's beliefs and actions, which is a much higher standard and keeps you from even getting to fighting.

Zec, you and I each have an exorbitant number of children. Do you encourage yours to police each other and boss each other around, or do you encourage them to bring their differences of opinion to you? Which is more important to you—who's right and who's wrong, or maintaining the harmony of your home and training your children to love each other and look out for each other? Do you reward a child that is always fault-finding and bringing you complaints, even when that child is clearly motivated by pride and competition and a desire to see someone else hurt, and clearly has no or very little interest in what's best for the other sibling, or in the honor and authority of the father? How do you feel about overachievers who are always trying to prove how right they are about everything? Does that make you proud? Or do you wonder what sorts of deep insecurities are motivating that child to always need to try to prove something?
Click to expand...

Of course you're right, unequivocally so. I do encourage healthy competition though. Which is what you're saying too I believe.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top