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What causes the nightmares of polygyny?
- Thread starter raulus
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We have taken my wife's mother into our home to care for her as she needs 24 hour care. This has created the opportunity for me to read the Bible for her and chat with her about biblical topics far more readily. We don't know how long she has before she will pass away but we want her to be appropriately cared for until then.
I think that all of the answers in this string (especially @steve ) are correct and helpful. The thing that I might add is a positive prescription. It is one thing to identify the symptoms, but I think the underlying issue is obedience to the LORD. One thing that has been helpful to us (and I would wager the same is true for Steve) is that for all of us there was a point where we determined "our new relationship is the will of the LORD." The same should be true of monogamous unions. The commitment to the relationship is not merely a commitment to our own word or covenant. It is not merely a faithful commitment to a spouse. Ultimately, it a commitment to obey the LORD. When things get difficult (and they will), If each of us can say to ourselves, "but this is the LORD's will" then our commitment is ultimately TO HIM. If even one member of the family does NOT believe it was the LORD's intention and purpose, then the entire foundation is undermined.
Excellent observation @ABlessedMan ...
My question then is, for cultures where its a norm for a man to have more than one wife, why then are so many of them able to pull it off with such ease while not being Christian, and not relying on God? This is something I've wondered for a while, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
My question then is, for cultures where its a norm for a man to have more than one wife, why then are so many of them able to pull it off with such ease while not being Christian, and not relying on God? This is something I've wondered for a while, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
I'm not sure that they are "able to pull it off with such ease." In Africa, there are some healthy polygynous families. However, when the gospel enters many cultures the Joseph story in Genesis is among their favorites because many are able to identify with the favoritism, bitterness and dissension. This is all the more powerful when you consider how important these relationship are in most African settings.
It'd be hard for me to make a generalization about "why it works" or "doesn't work," especially globally. I think there are cultures that can suppress the "nightmares" of bad relationship through shear threat of physical violence. People don't "act out," but that doesn't mean that things are necessarily "working." I also think there are cultures that are simply healthier than the west with regard to relationships and social roles. In African culture, the expectations are pretty clear, pretty consistent and pretty common place. Everyone has a pretty good idea of the ground rules. More children have better experiences with healthy relationships and healthy gender roles. Therefore, they are more likely to emulate the same.
Conversely, In a culture where faithlessness is the norm, and we have men competing in women's sports . . . probably not so much. I would say that the west (with the institutional church making very little difference) is among the least healthy with regard to gendered and familial relationships. We are heavily handicapped from the outset, and I think the LORD has to do a fair amount of remedial work on some of us. There are others who could speak to this last point better than I, however.
It'd be hard for me to make a generalization about "why it works" or "doesn't work," especially globally. I think there are cultures that can suppress the "nightmares" of bad relationship through shear threat of physical violence. People don't "act out," but that doesn't mean that things are necessarily "working." I also think there are cultures that are simply healthier than the west with regard to relationships and social roles. In African culture, the expectations are pretty clear, pretty consistent and pretty common place. Everyone has a pretty good idea of the ground rules. More children have better experiences with healthy relationships and healthy gender roles. Therefore, they are more likely to emulate the same.
Conversely, In a culture where faithlessness is the norm, and we have men competing in women's sports . . . probably not so much. I would say that the west (with the institutional church making very little difference) is among the least healthy with regard to gendered and familial relationships. We are heavily handicapped from the outset, and I think the LORD has to do a fair amount of remedial work on some of us. There are others who could speak to this last point better than I, however.
To the extent that there is no spiritual push-back from the enemy of our souls, it is because polygamy practiced in a heathen culture is no threat to his kingdom.
I asked the same question about submissive wives, and successful marriage has a lot to do with submissive wives.. Especially since once my newly Christian wife decided she needed to be submissive her behavior grew worse. The only answer I've come up with is that Christian's are not immune to the curse of Eve. The Holy Spirit will work many miracles, but that is one problem He won't magic away.
As to good marriages I think Paul gives us the answer in Romans 2:14-16...
How is that even possible?
How can person who is trying to please you, get worse? I don't understand. I get that people make mistake and need some training, but that should be fixable problem in a few months for eager learner.
@MemeFan , this is such an excellent question! It isn't just for wives though. I am eager to please God, so it would seem that with the admission of my mistake and some education I should be able to make steady progress on the road to pleasing him. That seems to be all it should take if I were rational and capable. Then . . .there's reality. I'm so thankful that Paul said this:
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. (Rom 7:19-25 ESV)
It is not an excuse to sin, it is a simple realization that I really can do pretty much nothing on my own. As to "doing worse" when we discover what is right . . . Paul said that, too.
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. (Rom 7:7-11 ESV)
When we know we should do better . . . is where the battle really begins (for us as well as for our wives). The good news . . .is the Good News. He won't abandon us. Even when we can't WANT what is right because of Sin, the LORD is working to teach us that HE ALONE is the one "who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phi 2:13 ESV)
And not to take women "off the hook" for the things they struggle with in regard to polygyny, ultimately men are responsible. . . and there are significant differences in the masculine dimension of working and dysfunctional marriages in non-Christian cultures. Some masculine dysfunctions are favoritism, abuse, and lack of substantial leadership. The last one is one that I have struggled with, because by and large the African men I have known are much stronger and more subtanstial in their character than I am by a considerable margin. In Western culture (and particularly Black culture of the US) men are not only relieved of authority, but typically dismissed from it. (Thoughts? @bro. Dexter for YAH or peacekeeper?) I think this is part of @b_ce 's question that deserves attention. I contend that one reason that many world cultures can have more successful PM is that the masculine authority structure is still in place culturally. In the West we have to develop a "work around" for our cultural deficit. It is a similar problem to challenges where the gospel enters a culture that has no notion of "sin" or "guilt." I think @PeteR could speak to this more cogently. . .
I think you're absolutely right regarding men in black culture being dismissed from authority. Black American culture is matriarchal. The women rule because there are so many generations of family where the man is not present or has no substantial presence. The sad part if he is present he's under her authority.
Men are blamed for everything, but very few women take responsibility for the monsters they raise in their "strong and independent" single motherhood. Too much women worship and no accountability. When the man isn't present, she's automatically a hero, and there is no consideration of whether she had any fault in him leaving.
Until black women in America demonstrate they want to be led and can be led, men won't be in authority in families and many men won't even bother with a family whether they have children with those women or not. Sad, but something must change.
I have a black American wife, and she has shown me that she wants to be led and can be led. I for my part have to build my character and leadership so that we show forth a strong example to future generations.
I would think it was just my own personal failing, but I've seen it happen to other men and as a rule, American Christian women are anything but submissive; that shouldn't be happening if the Holy Spirit is moving among them.
The only two conclusions I can draw about the utter lack of submissive Christian women, even in churches that preach that, is either (a) they are en masse not saved or (b) that is one thing the Holy Spirit leaves to husbands to see to: it is our job as husbands to rule them, to lead them spiritually to greater sanctification and most men are quite simply not doing that.
I could be wrong. It's one of those mysteries. But once I realized that the lack of submissiveness despite wanting to be submissive is exactly the same as the curse of Eve. So it makes sense that we'd no more be set free from that than from the need to toil and till the soil until such time as death is defeated.
Thanks on answer.