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What constitutes pornography?

inquisitive one

New Member
Are artistic photographs of nude women considered pornographic?

Is there a biblical definition of pornography and what is it? Where is the definition to be found?

What is the difference between art and pornography?
 
Wow, awesome question!!!

I have applied the "if I look at another woman (man's wife) lustfully I have committed adultery" thing on this one.

I have often wondered about nude statues etc. My answer is that if I am using these things for arousal and or lust.... I am sinning. Goes hand in hand with the "everything is permissable not everything is beneficial"
 
I suspect that it has an awful lot to more to do with what is in the mind of the beholder than with the object itself. After all, God made us nude, and pronounced it good! Satan is the one who added shame to the equation, and inappropriate lustful thought.
 
I agree with Jonathan on this one, and would like to add that my view on things is as follows: I picture falling (or even jumping) into sin as falling off a cliff. If I know the cliff is there and it is dangerous, being adequately warned of the dangers of getting too close to the edge, then I feel it quite unwise to walk near the edge as so often you don't know how close you are to the edge until you already fell. Rather than presuming liberty in all things that are not expressly stated, I prefer to seek God's wisdom about what I should and should not do. If I have no clarity, I try to err on the side of caution. This mindset applied to judgement of others could become legalistic, whereas a lack of judging ourselves may result in licentiousness. In the situation of sinning against our Holy and Righteous God, our Father and our Lord, it would be better in my opinion to ask for wisdom before proceeding than forgiveness if later I found that I was truly in sin. We have such limited knowledge and wisdom, and I find that there are things God's Word speaks to plainly that I thought were ambiguous years ago.

If you have a wife, then you will never go wrong enjoying your own wife. You would be in sin to covet another man's wife or lust after her. While we don't have specific statements, I think the principal is clear that sexual intimacy is beautiful and productive in the marriage relationship and forbidden in other situations, some of which I admit I still don't totally understand. Rather than asking if it is acceptable to look at nude pictures or statues, it is at the very least much better to thank the Lord for the marriage bed and the sexual union between yourself and your beloved, whom God has put together as a one flesh union. I would also add, as this question is often asked of me in various situations, that while sexual intimacy is wonderful with your wife, that is by far not the greatest thing a wife has to offer. If myself of my wife became physically unable to have sexual intimacy, I hope that would not be the end of our relationship. Certainly, some things would change, but I am so often reminded that those couples who have been married for 60 years probably don't have sex very often, but they are still in love, their hearts knit together until the day they die. I have to say that I am not much to look at, yet my wife loves me deeply and passionately. Physical appearances fade so quickly, and I think our culture focuses far too much on the physical and so often neglects what is truly important, the hidden person of the heart.

I didn't mean to go on so long, and I am sure I got off track from your original question. I have thought this issue a lot, and I hope this was not too off topic so as to derail the post.
 
Cow fam said:
This mindset applied to judgement of others could become legalistic, whereas a lack of judging ourselves may result in licentiousness.
Love this phrase so much I wish I said it. Oh, wait a minute; that would be coveting. Bad Steven! :oops:
 
I was reading the other day in the Book of Psalms and was struck by a statement that David made, he was a man's man, but more to the point he was a man after God's own heart. He understood the issues of rooftop gazing. In Ps. 101:2b-4 he writes "I will walk within my house in the integrity of my heart. I will set no worthless thing before my eyes; ...... It shall not fasten its grip on me. "The word worthless can take on two thoughts; 1) having no value at all, and 2) having a value much less than other things. Whichever the case I see this issue as a question of value, what do you value in your heart, what builds you up, what draws you closer to the Lord, what makes you a mighty man of God? As a leader in your home what brings value to your family, what elevates your spouse?

Weigh these things and find their true worth, and your steps will be established.

Bob
 
CecilW said:
, God made us nude, and pronounced it good! Satan is the one who added shame to the equation, and inappropriate lustful thought.
if it was that uncomplicated, I cannot see how the Creator of the universe was justified in killing and skinning adam and eve's furry friends in order to make them feel better. (that they talked to each other is, to me, obvious in that eve did not freak out when spoken to by the upright reptile)

I think that the destruction of innocence due to their action is a reality, and any pretense that we can ignore it is suggested by the enemy himself. the fact that YHWH did not mention it does not make it any less real, His first action was to help them deal with it. would He have needed to make it more obvious?
 
I like to look at artistic photos of naked women, my wife objects and wants me to stop. I feel that this is taking away my free will and freedom of choice...... Your thoughts and comments?
 
steve said:
if it was that uncomplicated, I cannot see how the Creator of the universe was justified in killing and skinning adam and eve's furry friends in order to make them feel better. (that they talked to each other is, to me, obvious in that eve did not freak out when spoken to by the upright reptile)

Off track and totally unrelated here, but, I've always wondered about that. Why did Eve not freak out when a snake spoke to her? It is possible that the animals usually spoke so this was normal for her. But what about the case of Balaam in Numbers 22? His donkey did not normally speak to him as the Lord had to open it's mouth to speak. But he didn't freak out like you think he would have. Instead he just yelled at him for not walking straight. So perhaps in that moment, the Lord made him able to accept that this was a normal thing to happen so he could be taught the lesson God wished to teach him. If that is the case, then could it not be the same for Eve, with the knowledge coming from satan? Pure speculation here of course.
There is also the possibility that Eve had never seen a snake before this point. Everything was new to her, how was she to know that snakes weren't supposed to speak?
 
good questions, sarah.

first let me say that satan is not a creator, he can only copy. when I see all of the fascination with mental telepathy, I can only assume that it had to start somewhere in connection with the true Creator. in a true paradise would different animals not be able to communicate with other species? when the lion lays down with the lamb, are they just existing in proximity? dumb animals? or are they friends? how can they be friends w/out being able to communicate? mental telepathy does not seem that big of a stretch before the corruption that was brought by the fall. and why would we be left out? ;)

adam was tasked with naming the animals. who did he tell their names to? YHWH? what would be the point? eve? he had yet to take his nap ;)
I firmly believe that when he gave the animals their names, he gave them to the animals themselves. he communicated to the animals their names.

btw: snake is a poor translation, it would have been crawling already. upright reptile fits better which was then cursed to crawl. could you possibly imagine a talking gecko which walked on it's hind legs? :D :lol: ;)

p.s. I do find it interesting that with eve and balaam they were both thumbing their noses at YHWH's wishes. the reptile being used by the enemy to steer eve wrong, and the attempt being made by YHWH to use the ass to steer balaam right.
the big difference was that balaam was a male, of course he yelled at his ass! :lol: :lol: :lol:

yep, we are off-track, but I think that the OP question was well answered. and besides, scenic sidetracks can be fun! :D
 
inquisitive one said:
I like to look at artistic photos of naked women, my wife objects and wants me to stop. I feel that this is taking away my free will and freedom of choice...... Your thoughts and comments?
Why do you want to?

What is the net result of this, does it make your marriage better through pleasure or worse through making your wife feel unloved?

Is it actually beneficial or do you do it just because you can?

Does the wise man do absolutely everything he believes he has freedom to do, or only that which is beneficial?
 
I like to look at the photos because they are beautiful. As i like to look at flowers to because they are beautiful also.

I don't like that my wife is trying to take away my free will and free choice.
 
If you were to walk into your kitchen and see your wife looking at pictures of naked men, would you be satisfied with her telling you, "They are beautiful to me, dear, and I like to look at them in the same way I like to look at flowers?" And if you still objected, what would be your response if she said, "I don't like the way you are trying to take away my freedom of choice." ???? Inquiring minds want to know.... ;)
 
No i wouldn't mind if my wife looked at pictures of naked men. That's her choice.

My wife keeps quoting Mathew 5:27 to me and I feel that this is unjust. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
 
You sound like a little kid. "No! I don't WANT to stop! You can't make me! Don't take it away!"

When I first started dating my husband I stopped drinking alcohol entirely. I didn't drink to get drunk, I just had the odd glass of wine or something if I was out. Did I stop because the bible says not to drink? No. Did I stop because alcohol is bad? No. Did I stop because I had a problem? No.
I stopped because I was respectful of the fact that my husband and his family don't drink at all. I stopped because he asked me to and it was important to him. I honestly haven't found it an issue. I would drink alcohol because I like the taste and yet I like the taste or juice, coke, a good cup of tea. So I'm not really missing out.

Relationships are about compromise. She isn't trying to take away your free will. If you stop you will be using your free will to do so. She's asking you to stop because it's important to her and it makes her feel uncomfortable.
Now, if she can't trust you in this, if you can't compromise on something that is apparently so little, then how exactly do you think she is going to feel if you get another wife?
The art, like the alcohol, is not important in life. If it is just a picture, like you say, then look at other pictures. Look at flowers. If it is not something that is a turn on for you, then it will be easy to stop, right? There is so much amazing art in the world that does not involve naked people.

Compromise.
 
Steve, thanks for your explanation re the reptile (I didn't say snake, see? :D )
One of the things I love about BF is all the different views of different people, yet we all agree on Pm! Certainly makes life more interesting. I do wonder when we die if we will just know all the answers to our questions or if we won't care about the questions anymore.
 
Ok, lets be completely frank here.

1) The Bible does not entirely ban you from looking at pictures of naked women. It does say you should not lust after a married woman, and it says you must not uncover the nakedness of a woman who is a near relative. So if you truly are looking at them with no lust as you claim, and they aren't pictures of your sister-in-law, then there is no ban on them.

BUT

2) You keep justifying looking at them by simply claiming that it is your "free will" and "free choice". These terms are commonly used by so-called liberals these days to justify whatever they like, e.g. abortion is justified as a "free choice". But free will is just a tool, not a justification for anything. Think for a minute: the people who crow loudly about "free choice" on issues like abortion and gay marriage are often the exact same people who want to ban guns, and take away free choice in that area. Why is this?

"It's my free choice" is only a justification for something IF ALL THE BAD CHOICES ARE BANNED! That's why it's totalitarians and socialists who tend to talk about free choice - they envisage a utopian world where everything bad is banned and you're free to choose between the few acceptable choices that remain to you.

The Bible on the other hand doesn't actually ban much. Paul actually states that all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial. We have free choice to do a whole host of things, many of which are inadvisable. We then have free will, to choose between good choices and bad choices.

Now you could choose tomorrow to quit your job and become a self-employed crayon artist. That is your free choice. But the fact that it is your free choice does NOT justify the decision to do it - that would probably plunge your family into poverty. It would be a very stupid choice - which is why you use your free will and decide not to do it.

So lets ignore this whole "free choice" nonsense. Yes it's your free choice, that's not the question. The question is rather "should I look at pictures of naked women when my wife doesn't like it".

At the end of the day, that's your decision. You have to say to yourself "God has entrusted me with the care of this woman. Is this what He would want me to be doing, given that she feels hurt by it?". You have to do a cost-benefit analysis of the situation, weighing up the benefits (pictures of tits) against the costs (upset wife with real tits) and decide what's best for your wife and your marriage. You have to use your God-given brain and free will.

God gives wisdom to those who earnestly pray for it - that may be a good next step.
 
seriously?
this is a forum where having more than one wife is acceptable and this guy wants pictures?

I am having a hard time believing that we are not being toyed with.
 
Dear Inquisitive One,

I am having a bit of a problem here with your reasoning to "control" the situation with your wife and her desire for you to not look at the nudity pictures, and here is why:

1. It is very, very rare that nude pictures of women are those of some average- looking, over-weight women. You say they are beautiful, so I can only assume here that you are correct...they are most likely very beautiful...

2. The Bible states in I Peter 3:7-8, "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:" I do not see your attitude and defensiveness abiding with scripture here. Is your stubbornness in refusing to consider her request based on selflessness, dwelling with her according to knowledge and giving her honour as the weaker vessel? There is a judgment stated here as well...if you do not abide by I Peter 3:7-8...guess what? Oh, actually no guessing here even needed because it is clearly spelled out stating, "...that your prayers be not hindered..." I think the Lord was pretty clear on this point.

3. I don't know if you really get why your wife is opposed to the nudity pictures. I don't know your wife and if she has voiced to you why she does not want you to continue with this habit. But, from a woman's perspective (and I would venture to say from MOST women’s perspectives), by you pushing your right to do whatever it is you think is right, in this case, soft porn, you are causing your wife a number of problems: a) You are building mistrust, as she most likely sees your activity in this as a wandering eye (not poly related, but rather, dissatisfaction with her). b) She is most likely feeling very self-conscious and insecure, especially during times of intimacy. c) She is most likely thinking that it is the nude women you are picturing in your head while being intimate with her and that comparison alone will shut down your wife’s heart and vulnerability toward you. Points a-c are just some of the thoughts women have to contend with if their husband is looking at pictures or watching videos of pornography of any kind.

4. Let me ask you this…where are you getting the nude pictures of these women? Are they from magazines like Hustler or Playboy? Or are they directly off the internet? The magazines are resources for still-life pornography and their very purpose is for sexual arousal. If magazines are your source, how are you able to skip through all the other photos and articles without them getting into your memory? If you close your eyes until you get to the “just nude” pictures, I would have to call bull pucky, since you have to look to find the ones that qualify as just harmless nudity of beautiful women. If your resource in finding nude women is through watching videos, that also means you are skimming through God only knows what to find these “suitable” pictures you consider to be no big deal, as they are just beautiful women you are admiring, right?…seriously??? I “seriously” doubt you are being honest with yourself or your wife.

5. I have a friend who found out her husband was getting on porn sites and also found magazines he had hid from her. It nearly destroyed their marriage. She told me that prior to discovering this about her husband; they had been talking about having a child. She told me that there was no way she would bring a child into this world and their household with him looking at any kind of pornography. She told me how devastating it was when they were intimate, because all she could think of was how her husband was probably fantasizing about all the women he had looked at and how her body self-esteem and insecurity due to comparison was just too much for her to handle. She shared with me that having a child was off the table because there was no way she wanted her child exposed to porn being acceptable in their home of any sort and with the possibility that once he/she was old enough and was able to surf the internet, it was very likely it would bring up a link or saved picture that would put that child in one bad situation or another, i.e. he/she would look and never tell they found it out of shame and curiosity, and also, the shock it could cause discovering that one of her/his parents were looking at that stuff in the first place, to name just a few repercussions.

6. Once the damage has been done to your wife’s self-image, security, and feelings that you are not satisfied with her, how do you purpose ever restoring oneness with her? Helping your wife to become secure in your love is only one step toward her accepting a lifestyle of plural marriage. By looking at the pictures of beautiful naked women, you may very well discover she will have a much more difficult time with any sisterwife, because you have laid a foundational stone in your marriage that you aren’t satisfied with her. So, in her mind, she may possibly think you are adding women to your repertoire as a way of replacing your dissatisfaction with her with someone who is more satisfying to you.

7. Seriously, Inquisitive One, the whole thing is likened to watching a horror movie. Once you have watched it, it is inside your head; even the parts you tried to close your eyes to but caught a glimpse of anyway. Now that your wife is aware of your “I have the right to’s,” you have pretty much opened Pandora’s Box. I really wish you had gotten some advice and help with this BEFORE you opened this can of worms with your wife. Now that she knows you care more about what you have the “right to,” than her, that judgment stick may be one she will never be able to get past, even if she says she has…trust is broken…your defensiveness and demand that you can do whatever you want and you have the right to do so…speaks volumes to her of what she most likely sees as questionable integrity.

Maybe, just maybe, you might seriously want to consider all this and pray that the Lord heal this situation between you and your wife, lest the enemy uses it to divide and conquer for his satisfaction.

Also, maybe some of the women here on the board could expand on their viewpoints of how they would hypothetically feel if this was happening to them and their husbands. It would be interesting to start an anonymous poll of the ladies on all these points. Hmmmmm…That’s a thought.

I pray God’s will be done here and that His mercy and grace will prevail in your relationship with your wife.

Sincerely,
Deborah
 
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