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When is submission appropriate?

Andria

Andria

New Member
I've been listening to the old BF radio archive tonight (which I have LOVED and would LOVE to see it start up again) and just have a concern I can't seem to figure out on my own.

On the "Plural Marriage and the Single Person" episode Doc talked about how there are so many options available for single women...sometimes too many options. That's something I've absolutely experienced. It really starts to muddy the water for me sometimes 'til I take a step back and just halt everything and refocus. Every couple and every scenario is different. One of my greatest strengths AND greatest weaknesses is my adaptability. I like things to be simple and I like what works best in any given group. I'm human and can be selfish, but more often than not I just like to give.

As a Bible-believing woman, I absolutely believe in the model of a wife submitting to her husband. The concern that I have is knowing when that submission is appropriate. I have tried so hard to be my own protector because I've had to be for a long time. I could definitely be wrong (please tell me if I am), but I don't think it's realistic to think I can stay outside of that submission until the very day I'm bound to him in marriage, so when/how does that submission look? I've been hurt. I don't know if it's right or not, but that hurt has put somewhat of a wall up. I just don't want to be protecting myself TOO much or be too much of an egg to crack for a man and miss out on a good opportunity. I've gone both ways. I've given, given and given some more of myself and been far too adaptable to make things easier and more simple, but I've also been too closed off and in the 'protection mode' and have come across as someone who couldn't possibly submit.

I think there's room for a little bit of adjustment in any given scenario, but I need some kind of foundation that helps ensure I'm not just swept away in my adaptability. Where's my happy medium?
 
Seth said:
Error on the side of submission
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ONLY after you have prayerfully chosen the one man that you will spend the rest of your life with! :D
submitt to the Lord and let Him lead you while protecting yourself from being taken advantage of.
take your time, you have already been blessed by being rescued from a "rush-job"
the Lord loves you and will lead you to what is best.
"good" is the enemy of "best". do not settle for something that seems "good", it will take the place of what is "best" for you.
Where's my happy medium?
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i would encourage you to search out a wise woman on the board to councel and pray with. there is no firm boundry that i can see, each situation will be different.

just my 2 cents :D
 
Andria, this goes back to the point that the men and you need to have spiritual leaders overseeing you. Never trust any man who is not a disciple of another or others as he knows very little of the art of submission himself. Therefore, take the time to see how he submits to other men or how he seeks guidance from those around him who give good counsel as you become friends with him. And as you move along too have spiritual overseers watching over you. If you don't have a local mature shepherd then use the staff here at BF. This issue you are asking is an art and this there is not a simple one size rule that can be given. But the principle of both people being disciples and in good relationships where truth and transparency can exist is crucial to the process.

Much of the issues can be resolved up front when that times comes if the man is already submitted or bonded in strong relationships with others such as with a set of spiritual leaders who disciple, or guide, or speak into the heart of another. These people too will know him and will be involved in his life to some degree already. Sometimes it is not possible but in many cases this can be done.

The same would apply to you as well. In NT the elders oversaw the processes of the developing unions. If the woman's father was in her life he was involved in the direct oversight of the woman and if she was away from him or if he was not a believer and she was then the elders who functioned as the spiritual fathers over the spiritual children had that oversight.

This is important because as you have seen and pointed out there is the need for the woman to show submission. But a man can abuse that due to sin. Thus those spiritual leaders on the outside can be very helpful to whole process as they give counsel, wisdom, and guidance as the relationship develops.

Honestly, it is not just about the beginning of the union development either. It is wise for any covenant head of a family to be in covenant with other men even after a union is in place.

One of the greatest enemies to the polygyny movement is when a man refuses to be in covenant with other men who he will turn to for counsel and wisdom. Here is a link to this subject in one of the teaching articles that discusses this issue:

http://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/viewt ... =57&t=2479

For you to understand and see how submission works it is important to have a visual display of that. A picture so to speak is worth a thousand words. The man thus needs to model that to you by showing how he submits to others as well. Humility is the key to the car while wisdom is the car and pride is the pothole in the road that throws the car off course. There is no substitute to having godly leaders around you and around the man through life. This is one of the issues so many are facing because they do not have mature local leaders. Thus their unions suffer for it greatly as they have no trusted leaders to go to in a time of need. But, when that is the case it should not be an excuse to avoid any other leader anywhere else.

Here is one quote from that article:

Yet proud, arrogant, unruly, and immature men refuse to be accountable to anyone other than themselves. They reject the biblical principle as set forth in Proverbs which says, "Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in abundance of counselors there is safety" (Proverbs 11:14). Men who are rebels, men who do not exhibit humility, men who do not truly love the order and truth of God's word will have little to no desire to have others in their life who they can turn to for help when they or their family needs counsel or spiritual guidance. These men like the devil himself subject themselves and their family to grave danger and often falter and even sometimes fall to the point of destruction because they are full of Satanic pride (see 1 Tim. 3:6; Isa. 14:12-16; Ezekiel 28:11-19).

A covenant head is not exempt from the rule and authority of Jesus Christ. Specifically, Jesus Christ has set forth a rule that Christ is the head of man (1 Cor. 11:1-3). Therefore, Jesus' teaching on order among God's people stands true for each man and each family. If sin arises in the family assembly, the home, and if the members themselves cannot resolve the conflict with each other the Word of God requires (it is not a suggestion but a mandate) that the one who is offended or the one who is likely to be in unrepentant sin is to counseled or confronted by more than just the one person if the initial confrontation does not bring about repentance. Matthew 18:15-20 provides the proper order that a family will go through if they hit an obstacle that they cannot resolve within their own unit. Men who truly love and respect the Bible will do their best to find those other trustworthy people that they can trust and lean upon when they might be, or when someone in their family might be overcome by the power of sin.

More families, Christian ministries, and business organizations succeed or fail due to their ability or lack of ability to correctly confront. Biblical or coalescent unions often fail because the needed confrontation never happens, happens the wrong way, or even happens only after the problem has become so large that destruction has already set in and thus resolution is almost impossible. Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend have rightly said, “For many people, setting boundaries or confronting someone has gotten a bad rap. Yet, both the Bible and research show that confrontation is essential to success in all arenas of life. Successful people confront well. They make it a part of the ongoing texture of their relationships. They face issues in their relationships directly. In fact, the Latin word for confront means just that: to turn your face toward something or someone (Boundaries: Face to Face).”

Holy heads will be in submission to this mandate from Scripture. A godly, humble, Christ following man will obey this text and will not seek to isolate his family from those spiritual leaders who are mature, proponents of biblical polygyny, and who love God, his word, and people. A godly man will realize that he too can err, that he too might need outside help and counsel, and that he might and will likely need the spiritual wisdom of other brothers and sisters to combat the powerful force of sin.

Satan, however, wants to lure many women into the lives of arrogant men so he can use the doctrine of polygyny to destroy the woman and the family unit as well as the whole polygyny movement. Satan wants to set men up to fail. He wants men to be loners, obstinate, defiant, and rebels to any type of spiritual community where any person has any type of spiritual authority over another. If he can infiltrate the movement on the whole with such men then he can undermine the testimony of the movement while he causes the people of that persuasion of belief to live in such ways that they grieve the Holy Spirit.

A wise man, however, will see this trick and crafty ploy of Satan and will purposefully, intentionally, and with great care seek out godly men and women to bond with so that when sin strikes one or more people in the home if he cannot effectively deal with it himself he will have a team of brethren who stand ready to love, confront, guide, and help in those times where sin has taken control of one or more people in the life of the family. A godly man sees humility and the ability to ask for help not as a weakness but as a strength and virtue.
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Andria,

I'd like to offer a practical perspective my wife and I used while we were dating. We viewed our developing relationship as a practice run of marriage (without the sexuality of course). Our goal was to discover who the other person was and to consider whether those traits would be things we could live with on a permanent basis. We constantly asked, "what would you do if...," as a way to get discussions going and get to know each other. The stranger the proposed situation, the more interesting and revealing was the response! Even after many years of marriage, we still do this. We also got as much godly counsel as possible. You spoke about adaptability -- would that mean you're considering marrying a man who has already revealed traits you will have to put up with or hope will change? If so, be aware that more than likely, things will not change for the better. I hope you're not saying that you're willing to adapt to bad situations or bad characters.

As far as submission goes, you have a slight advantage here. The process of dating/courtship is a process of revealing one's self to a potential mate. First, it is the man's job to show how he will love his wife. If he does this, then the woman can respond. The husband is the head of the wife, and he is also the family leader. A leader in what? Since Christ is the head of the man, the man is to lead his family into submission to Christ. With this in mind, it is not at all distasteful for a Christian woman to follow her potential husband's lead insofar as he follows Christ. If he demonstrates his ability to love you as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it, then showing him your willingness to submit to his leadership makes sense. As the relationship progresses, trust is established because of what each partner demonstrates and marriage can proceed with confidence. On the other hand, if he is an arrogant, hot-tempered, lust-driven, controlling, or unscrupulous man whose selfish desires don't reflect submission to the Word of God, then how would it even make sense for a Christian woman be in a relationship with him, much less to submit to him?

Although I respect Dr. Allen, I differ with him slightly on one point. Godly counselors are important, but I don't see that it is universal that everyone be under some kind of fallible human authority. After all, to whom were Abraham and Moses accountable? Also, Numbers 30:9-16 shows that the vows of divorced, widowed, and possibly single women outside of their father's house were not revokable. (Vows of married women and young daughters were subject to being overruled by their husband or father within a short period of time.) Although there are many men who are loners due to their own pride, cantankerousness , or other faults, others are simply ostracized by their churches because they actually dare to take the Bible literally. The point of this is that we as believers in this New Covenant era can and should be aware ourselves (because of the Holy Spirit's guidance in our own lives) whether a person's words match the fruit of their lives. From that awareness, we should be ready to prayerfully make decisions that affect the course of our lives. Godly counsel can help, but it is the participants in a relationship who are often most aware of relevant facts. If a man's heart and actions do not reflect Christ, neither marry nor submit to him! Far too many people ignore the command to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers and the fallout (especially if children are involved) is usually disastrous. Know the Word yourself and follow it to the best of your ability. Look for a man who does the same.

Marriage is a repeating pattern throughout Scripture. Marriage points to the unity of the Godhead. Marriage points to the union of Christ and His body, the church. Marriage points to the relationship between Christ and man. Therefore in his dealings with his wife, a godly man should follow this holy pattern and overflow with the same love that Christ showed us when He humbly became human flesh, washed our feet and sin, died for us, and seeks to make us into fruitful disciples. Jesus Christ stated that he who would become great must become the least and servant of all. Christ through action lead this way; this is how a husband should lead. The husband must submit to Christ leadership in order to do so, and the wife reflects this by following and respecting her husband, thus completing the portrait and symbolism of marriage.

Joe.
 
Submission is submission. It's not divisible as in "I submit now, but not at other times when it is not appropriate." This sort of rationalization makes us the judge of when we "submit" and who we submit to and is therefor no submission at all.

It is said in the doctrinal statements of many denominations that Christ "Submitted unto death." This is partly based on a passage in John 10:
For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
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And also Philippians 2:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
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Jesus obeys the law, and when he is wrongly judged by both civic and religious authority he is seen by some as rebelling because he does not "submit" and give the judges what they want. He doesn't rebel though, because he accepts the consequences of his actions with regard to those authorities, "submitting" as it is said "unto death." The phrase neglects to mention "even to abandonment by God and public humiliating horrific torture."

So if we are to be "Christ Like," what is the requirement of our submission? Voluntary submission to every horror in even unjust treatment. That's the standard.

We uphold at times Peter in Acts 5 as an example of righteous rebellion:
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."
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This is seen as outright righteous rebellion against submission to wrong, but when this is said, it is not said in context. Previous to that in Acts 4:
And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye."
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So Peter and John, in submission, refuse and promptly ask the appointed authorities to "be the judge" as it says in other translations of the highlighted phrase.

What does that mean? After Paul's teacher, Gamaliel advised the rulers not to slay the Apostles:
And to him (Gamaliel) they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ."
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And so they are beaten, the standard which we often use as "going too far," yet these men rejoice in their shame and continue. Many of the Apostles are later martyred "unto death."

That's how you submit. Completely. To the unjust? The answer is yes. To wrong? The answer is yes. Submission does give you the option of obedience to God, and a resulting disobedience to men but we forget, obedience to men can come in another way. By taking the punishment those judges can dish out. God will deal with them. We should rejoice to suffer shame for doing the thing God wants.

What does Peter say in his first letter?
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:"
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That would be Jesus' Father, and our God.
 
Hugh McBryde said:
Submission is submission. It's not divisible as in "I submit now, but not at other times when it is not appropriate." This sort of rationalization makes us the judge of when we "submit" and who we submit to and is therefor no submission at all.

It is said in the doctrinal statements of many denominations that Christ "Submitted unto death." This is partly based on a passage in John 10:
For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
Click to expand...
And also Philippians 2:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Click to expand...
Jesus obeys the law, and when he is wrongly judged by both civic and religious authority he is seen by some as rebelling because he does not "submit" and give the judges what they want. He doesn't rebel though, because he accepts the consequences of his actions with regard to those authorities, "submitting" as it is said "unto death." The phrase neglects to mention "even to abandonment by God and public humiliating horrific torture."

So if we are to be "Christ Like," what is the requirement of our submission? Voluntary submission to every horror in even unjust treatment. That's the standard.

We uphold at times Peter in Acts 5 as an example of righteous rebellion:
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."
Click to expand...
This is seen as outright righteous rebellion against submission to wrong, but when this is said, it is not said in context. Previous to that in Acts 4:
And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye."
Click to expand...
So Peter and John, in submission, refuse and promptly ask the appointed authorities to "be the judge" as it says in other translations of the highlighted phrase.

What does that mean? After Paul's teacher, Gamaliel advised the rulers not to slay the Apostles:
And to him (Gamaliel) they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ."
Click to expand...
And so they are beaten, the standard which we often use as "going too far," yet these men rejoice in their shame and continue. Many of the Apostles are later martyred "unto death."

That's how you submit. Completely. To the unjust? The answer is yes. To wrong? The answer is yes. Submission does give you the option of obedience to God, and a resulting disobedience to men but we forget, obedience to men can come in another way. By taking the punishment those judges can dish out. God will deal with them. We should rejoice to suffer shame for doing the thing God wants.

What does Peter say in his first letter?
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:"
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That would be Jesus' Father, and our God.
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Sorry, I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, but this woman is not just submitting to any man who thinks they might be a good husband and who shows an interest in me. I'm not questioning when submission is appropriate in a marriage. The Lord commands wives to submit to their husbands. There's no "when you feel like it" attached there...I get that. My question is in situations of courtship, for lack of a better term. I feel that at the point of betrothal submission is appropriate. Before that point, I think it's wise to exercise caution, yet submit where I can with the idea that this could be a potential mate. But I don't feel the Lord telling me that I must submit before that commitment is made before Him. This is the simplest I've been able to come up with that is honoring to a man yet not putting me in danger of submitting to someone who may not be walking the path the Lord has for him.

I experienced this with my last relationship. I am a bit salty this morning because I came into the realization last night that the last "Godly" man was asking and expecting me to go down a path that I see was not of God. I was daily praying and bringing the relationship before the Lord asking for His guidance and blessing. I am not yet very skilled at recognizing the voice of the Lord. I was doing the only thing I knew to do and that was prayerfully putting that relationship in God's hands. There were things asked of me and expected of me that I did not feel comfortable with. But because the waterin my mind were muddied, I thought since this man could very well have been my husband that it was my duty to obey him and that the things I was concerned about were ok in a marriage setting. Well, we weren't married. And the things asked of me were not things a man of God would expect of a single woman.

I'm also upset that I was spiritually abandoned by my earthly father. Women are to be covered and in present day things like this happen so.frequently where a woman is going down the wrong path because she has no spiritual covering. It is really sad and heart breaking the world we live in and how "off" it is from what the Lord intended. Daughters aren't supposed to have to worry about this stuff. I would be GLAD to be in an arranged marriage set up by two men of GOD. All I have is the Lord. And I pray that is not forever the case. But a single woman in this world without a father to lead her had better walk carefully and pray for a recognition of the voice and will of God in her life.

Sorry. I'm upset at how wrong everything is. God had a better plan than this.
 
Andria, you are absolutely correct, and you must withhold submission until you are certain that this it the right person/family for you, and even then, I think gradual submission will then be a process that's not fully realized until you are actually married. That process, from meeting to being certain, then from then to marriage, should be longer than a few weeks, I'm absolutely convinced - and that time, I think, should be primarily used for you to be comfortable (build trust) that you CAN submit to this person, and trust them with this responsibility for your life. I want to make a hard statement here: Any man who asks for that submission to him, in any form, before he's been willing to put in the time and effort to build that trust, and make you certain that he can handle that responsibility, lovingly, with you: run away from him. And I know this applies to some men reading this, and guys, if know you it applies to you, please consider just moving on now, because we ZERO respect for men who would operate in such a fashion.

I think Joe's note is right on too (and in fairness to Hugh, I think he was clearly commenting on submission in marriage, not in your situation.)

I think God will bless you Andria, for using wisdom, and not just submitting at the first place you are asked to do so.

Blessings, Nathan
 
Andria said:
I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, but this woman is not just submitting to any man who thinks they might be a good husband and who shows an interest in me."
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I'm probably not going to answer in an apologetic way. I had no intention of asking you to submit when there was no requirement to submit. Submission is, what submission is. If you regard yourself as a free agent with respect to marriage and permission to marry then by all means, be careful who you choose.

When women or daughters start saying things like "This Woman," I step back. I don't see a submissive attitude. I'm not interested in what "This Woman" wants on those terms. I too would have a responsibility when it came to marriage. I have the authority in a marriage, it is true and that is God's command to you in marriage not me. My charge from God is to "Love my wife," not to dominate or show my authority over her. Having the ability to choose I shy strongly away from rebellion and rebellious attitudes because I am not planning to "subjugate" my wife since my charge is to love, not dominate. I have one point as you do with regard to your submission. I have a point to choose who I will love, not who I will make sure respects my authority (Cue to Eric Cartman). Oddly though, I will choose who shows respect to authority in general prior to choosing who to love, because love I must, as it is God's command. For me, the commitment produces the love you want, not some stray and changeable emotion. Commit, then love follows.

Similarly, submit, and obedience and respect follow.

Forgive me, but I don't see that flowing from statements that contain "This Woman," unless I misunderstand you. I would plan to love finally and completely when I take a wife (and I have no need of another wife).
 
Hugh, I expected a comment regarding how I said that because it sounds how it sounds. I have absolutely no issues with your post. But like Nathan said, you're referring to marriage. The whole point of the thread was pre-marriage. I don't ask you to make any apologies for what you believe. I don't think you're wrong. But there are a lot of men out there who prey on women who believe in the.Biblical model.of submission and try to trap them and lead them down a path God didn't intend for them. And there have been some like that even in this BF community. So, if my wording makes some men run the other way, that's fine. I'm angry at the traps women fall into at the hands of men who are snakes and don't intend for good. That post was written in anger and maybe the anger itself isn't wrong but yes my attitude was less than desireable and I will own that. Me writing this post a year ago would have been even worse...but God convicts and changes me daily.
 
Andria said:
Hugh, I expected a comment regarding how I said that because it sounds how it sounds. I have absolutely no issues with your post. But like Nathan said, you're referring to marriage."
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So how is the comment not apropos? If you are contemplating marriage, and submission, you should know what submission is, or acknowledge that you know, if you do. I'm not trying to make friends or enemies or potential brides out of anyone here. I would prefer friends, but not at the expense of the truth. Submission is as submission is. If we're going to talk about when to submit, of course we should know what we're talking about when we talk submission.
 
Wives submit to your husbands. That's my understanding of when to submit. If he's not my husband, then what? Was the whole point. Because it is impractical to think I will NEVR submit til the marrige vows. I honestly was coming at this from a good heart.
 
Andria said:
Wives submit to your husbands. That's my understanding of when to submit. If he's not my husband, then what? Was the whole point. Because it is impractical to think I will NEVR submit til the marrige vows. I honestly was coming at this from a good heart.
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Of course you are, Andria.

I have an idea. See how this sets. ...

Perhaps this is one of the benefits of the betrothal period. The groom gets to see your attitude towards submission or whether you can be expected to fight him at every turn. You get to see how he handles authority, lightly and kindly or harshly. Assuming that you do not use the state of "betrothal" as license to consummate the "marriage" sexually, (at least this seems to be how many BFers understand it,) either of you is free to bail out if the answer isn't to your liking.

So that would be one way of looking at it: Begins when betrothal/engagement begins, though there is a period with an escape clause prior to marriage. It's a practice run prior to the real thing.

Does that seem sensible?
 
andria;
i agree with your attitude in this thread, only you can take responsibility for you. do not give that responsibility to any man untill you are comfortable with how he will handle it.
re-read nathans post, it is spot-on.
the whole thing is a growth process in the relationship. the leadership that the man shows in the begining of the relationship will be in small areas and your submission will be in small things.
for example: if he is taking you out to coffee does he lead in showing you consideration by opening the door for you? do you submit to that action?
as the relationship progresses does he lead in keeping the physical relationship within what you consider proper boundries? submitting to a proper care for you, but not to an improper relationship.
cecil has the right idea, but in my book it starts and grows from day-1, not from the betrothel point. but, probably, what he meant to emphasize was that even in the betrothel period the door is available if you feel that the submission required (and what will be required) is unhealthy,
joe had a great idea with the "what-ifs". find out early and often what his expectations will be.
 
I believe that submission begins and is a process until you are married and you fully submit to the husband. I would never expect a woman who is dating to fully submit to the man, but in some things I would expect it. For instance, if you are dating a man and have committed to being with him then you shouldn't also be dating others. That is one area of submission that I believe is non-negotiable. I believe that if a man who you are dating exclusively expects certain behavior or actions from the woman he is dating then she should consider following his requests. Suppose your spouse to be thinks that you dress in a way that doesn't fit with his idea of modesty. If he tells you, I would prefer if you didn't wear clothing that is this revealing (not that it is but it does cause him problems) then I believe that a woman should begin to do things that show respect for the man. As a woman do you plan that on your wedding day you instantly conform to his ideals? The "betrothal" period is a time of discovery. You will discover what he likes and dislikes and you will try to incorporate those things into your life. He will discover what you do and don't like and try to incorporate those things into his world. You both become more and more intertwined until at some point the wedding is only a formality.

SweetLissa
 
Andria, I am in the same position. My Dad is dead and my brothers are not christians and have never taken any leadership role with their sister.
So, I presented my dilemma, once I was certain of the male leadership here
on BF. I prayed about it as you did, and I presented myself as a single woman in need of some male guidance from the leaders here.
I believe the retreat is sooo important! I will be able to meet them and they will meet me. I so wish you could come.
Then I will submit to their leadership, which is no different then submitting to your Pastor.
It still comes down to the right family and/or man for you. You have been hurt so you are wary, that is not always bad. Instead of it changing you, use it to gauge what you would not do or allow in the next relationship. You have also a testimony to us (single women) that we can use to protect ourselves. God uses something bad in our life to make something good come out of it, if you let it.
Bless you Andrea, dede
 
Submission is important early on to establish the patriarchal order and mutual respect for each person's role in the marriage.

My wife is an LPN and because her job in a surgery hospital is extremely challenging she credits that for her ability not to take authority personally. She say we all simply have our roles to play so why not be the best at them that we can be? She also says that having something extramarital (as in career, hobby, etc) with a sister wife helps to form the strong bond between them.
 
1 Peter 3:1-7
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; while they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
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As a preemptive comment, let me say; I believe that women are the weaker vessels, but the contents of that vessel have just as much potential for spiritual and emotional strength as any man. Also, I do not believe that God is against jewelry, hair-styling, attractive clothing or make-up (although I prefer kissing the real thing rather than Max Factor, personal preference), but He is saying that all these attractive things are no substitute for that sweet, feminine, godly spirit which can make any woman beautiful regardless of any external circumstances.
Back on point, may we consider that a woman's spirit, in submission to God reflects in her character in such a way that she may radiate a spiritual beauty that is attractive to godly men. Such a woman may demonstrate to those around her, the capacity of submissiveness in marriage without actually being in submission to a potential husband. There is no Biblical injunction for women to be submissive to men in general, but only to fathers, husbands and in a sense in church services which is really a reflection of her marital status. I believe we do godly women a dis-service by expecting them to be in marital submission to a man who has not yet made the commitment of marriage.
In my high school, during my senior year, my first year as a Christian, there was a lovely girl named Lenore S. She was not a pin up, but nice looking, neat, clean and stylish, but she was by far the most beautiful girl in a student body of almost 2,000. She was the most sincere, honest, open believer I have ever met. At 17 she was a genuine child of God, radiating His spirit. She excelled as a student and many extra-curricular activities. She was not mousy, nor was she brassy. She was a Christian woman, sold out to God, proud to be His. She was the first and best example I have had of what to expect of a Christian woman. I have every reason to expect that the years have held challenges for her, but the grace of God was sufficient for each one. I have had many other ladies demonstrate the same characteristics over these many years. I married one, in my youth. They have been of varying ages and backgrounds, bold and strong in facing the world, but sweet and submissive in their marital relationship. Before I knew anything about plural marriage, I frequently said in sermons that "I really enjoy being around godly Christian women, there is something uniquely wonderful about them." When God created Eve, He did His finest creative work. Her daughters in succession are the reflection of that excellence. God's people will do well to appreciate that work by allowing them to be all that they can be, with strengths, skills, interests, wisdom and insights under God. They ought to be particularly treasured when they offer themselves as a helper to a man they consider worthy of their treasure.
 
It would also appear that a woman is not to yield to a husbandly authority until they are actually married, because only then can her potential suitor be called "husband". It may be a good idea during the courtship period they both discuss what husbandly authority means to both of them before taking a final vow of commitment. He may have been misled to believe he has total domination in his authority and she may, through her gentleness and love of Jesus have the right concept.

Also, this is a good time to see if she wants to submit to his definition of husbandly authority. She isn't bound to accept a marriage proposal from just anyone. If his understanding of authority conflicts with hers, she should end the courtship and wait on the man God sends to her. Because once she accepts him as her husband, she is bound to his authority.

Men should not rush in to marriage guns blazing without asking the Holy Spirit to refine his understanding of his role as a husband. It's better to be prepared at the onset of the marriage rather than try it mid way. The learning curve can be difficult...
 
Where is the betrothal escape clause? I am not saying there is not one, but where is it?

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:23 NIV 2011
 
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