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Who Makes The Final Decission?

Chaplain

Chaplain

Member
Real Person
John and Jane have come into an understanding of PM or Covenant Relationship as I call it. Now inters Doe into the picture. John and Jane wish her to be a part of their family. Doe has received the same information that John and Jane have and understands this information. John and Jane have asked Doe to become a part of their family. John and Doe have come to an understanding of them having a Covenant Relationship............Now to the question and PLEASE do not read more into this question than what is stated.

Who makes the final decission on what the conditions will be concerning a Covenant Relationship agreement between John and Doe?


If you can, Please provide scripture to back up your answer.
THANKS!!!
 
Chaplain said:
John and Jane have come into an understanding of PM or Covenant Relationship as I call it. Now inters Doe into the picture. John and Jane wish her to be a part of their family. Doe has received the same information that John and Jane have and understands this information. John and Jane have asked Doe to become a part of their family. John and Doe have come to an understanding of them having a Covenant Relationship............Now to the question and PLEASE do not read more into this question than what is stated.

Who makes the final decission on what the conditions will be concerning a Covenant Relationship agreement between John and Doe?


If you can, Please provide scripture to back up your answer.
THANKS!!!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if by conditions you mean who gets to decide if or when Joe can marry Doe (the potential 2nd wife) or if you are talking about other conditions as well. If you're asking if Joe would need consent from his current wife, then biblically-speaking I would say no. All of the plural marriages that I've read about in the Bible did not require the approval of any wife, and also I'm sure others will bring up that the man is the head of the relationship. Ideally-speaking, I believe that the wife should have a say, and I don't believe that is a sin, necessarily. The wife can have a say and make decisions without the husband losing his head position, because it's all a matter of how the husband heads the relationship, whether it be with unilateral and overruling decisions or with decisions factoring in his wife, and delegating power, etc. This is best esp. before the polygamous relationship starts, so that no one gets hurt or so that everyone is on the same page in agreement, with the issues/problems addressed (jealousy, etc.) - doesn’t have to be perfectly but at least enough and perhaps progress little by little or gradually to make it as comfortable of a transition as possible. Other reasons can be mentioned but these are some of the good reasons I can think of.


Edit (3-6-2010): Deleted part of my original post and added something else...


Below are just more reasons of why I think a wife should have "some" say in the choosing of her husband's potential 2nd wife:

One helpful note I'll make from reading the bad experiences of some poly wives is that a wife should be involved in the selection/courting of the husband's potential 2nd wife. I say this because one headache a husband can bring on himself is if he marries a 2nd wife whose personality/behavior/values, etc are the polar opposite of his first wife. That situation would inevitably cause friction - the wives may not be able to get along, etc. That's why I and some others have mentioned on this forum that choosing a potential 2nd wife should not just be based on if the potential 2nd wife is the husband's type, but also if she's good, and compatible with the husband's current wife, as in if they would make good companions, friends, get along well, and be good in other areas of companionship. I mean a man should do this when even choosing his first wife, he should make sure she's a good woman, that they are a good match, etc, so the only difference when that same man is courting a 2nd woman to be his 2nd potential wife is that he must also make sure that the potential wife is a good match for not only him but also his current wife. I think a lot of plural families, especially in the early history of the polygamy practice in America, did not think about letting the wives have a say in the selection process of a new wife, and when that worked out for the bad, at least, we have an opportunity to see and learn from the problems, and work around it with a solution so we don't make the same mistake.
 
Chaplain, my friend, methinks you're being a tad too circumspect in stating the problem. All is not yet clear.

Are you asking who gets to decide whether, when, or under what condition Doe joins the family? At this late date? When John and Jane have already agreed to court Doe?

Are you asking if, once John & Doe have entered into covenant, either verbally or physically, if Jane has the right to suddenly change HER mind and veto JOHN & DOE's existing covenant?

Or are you asking who gets to set forth the conditions of the covenant between John and Doe, the Ketubah, so to speak? John or Doe? Or both? And/or God? Or Jane?

Or something else entirely? Who lives where? Same or separate houses? Bedrooms? That kind of stuff? Or not?

Aren't you glad for forum-buddies like me with such helpful answers? :roll: :lol:
 
Well I guess I either made my question to complex or just to simple :lol: SO to rob this line from Cecil......."are you asking who gets to set forth the conditions of the covenant between John and Doe, the Ketubah, so to speak? John or Doe? Or both? And/or God? Or Jane?".....Thus my question "
Who makes the final decission on what the conditions will be concerning a Covenant Relationship agreement between John and Doe?" Hope this makes it a bit easier :D
 
Aaaaah. Soooo. Well, then, since each marriage is in fact a distinct marriage, it would seem to be up to the bride and groom, with reference to God. Unless, of course, the bride is yet under the headship of her father.

Some have suggested that the groom's parents have authority as well, but I think that the command that he should have LEFT his parents tends to negate that.

Of course, his existing wife would LIKE to have authority in the matter, and both the bride and groom won't be hurt by CONSULTING her, but it isn't actually HER marriage, and so she doesn't actually have authority over what John & Doe agree upon.

She does, however, have certain recourse, as per Ex 21, if what her husband chooses to do in the new relationship negatively impacts herself in certain ways.
 
I don't have sufficient scriptural evidence to support my opinion, other than all the patriarchal scriptures that you already know about, but I believe that the covenental relationship between John and Doe should be decided with John and Doe. At the point that they decide to get married they should already know if Doe will be "kosher", so to speak, with the family as a whole. So the only thing that remains is the marriage between John and Doe. And that should be decided between John and Doe. Of course with John making the final decision in all matters.

It has always been my opinion that as long as the subject of submission is understood among all involved then everything else should fall into place as long as the husband is being the husband and leader that he is supposed to be.
 
Chaplain said:
Thus my question "
Who makes the final decission on what the conditions will be concerning a Covenant Relationship agreement between John and Doe?"
Click to expand...

God.
 
I have to agree with the comments provided thus far. The covenant relationship in question is between John, Doe and Doe's father (if applicable). The answer is exactly the same as when John and Jane entered into a Covenant Relationship. Pre-existing wives and/or children simply dictate the type and size of family being entered into. The terms or conditions of the relationship are determined and agreed to by the participants, not the entire family.

Does that mean John can unilaterally decide to take Doe as a wife without any concern for Jane's wishes? Certainly, he has the authority to do so, and he has the right to destroy his entire family through his actions if he is not wise. Doe will certainly note that if John acts with disregard to his current wives and children's feelings and needs, he will likely disregard her feelings and needs in the future.

The final decision belongs to the husband and the wife of the covenant.

P.S. I'm re-reading your initial paragraph and I'm confused about how the last bit was worded. "John and Doe have come to an understanding of them HAVING a Covenant Relationship............Now to the question" Is this to suggest that John and Doe have entered into a Covenant Relationship PRIOR to determining the TERMS of the Covenant Relationship? Or am I doing exactly what you said not to do and reading too much into this question? :lol:

In His love,
David
 
Brother David,
No.... In this example John and Doe have not intered into a covenant. Quess I could have written that statement you asked about a little bit different. :D
 
I wish to Thank those who have replied to this topic. After much prayer and additional study, I feel led to add the following:

John and Jane, once they agree about PM, can discuss with each other what they hope to see happen concerning adding another wife and how they hope things transpire after she agrees, such as living arrangements, children, etc.

When John and Doe start courting, they need alone time together and be allowed to go out on a date in order to build their relationship, just as when John and Jane courted and dated.

Once John and Doe begin a courting relationship then they are the ones who dictate how that relationship will develope. Jane is to support her husband in his decissions as well as in prayer but has no say so in their relationship, just as Doe has no say so in John and Janes relationship.

John and Doe decide what the conditions of the PM agreement are, even if those conditions do not go along with what John and Jane had hoped for. The relationship is between John and Doe. Jane still needs to be supportive of her husband and to pray for him, for he is the head of the family and answers to the Lord for his decisions and not to Jane.

Jane and Doe need to build a relationship as a means of building the family unity and to minimize jealousy as much as possible.

John must pray for both Jane and Doe as well as himself.

Jane needs to continue to pray for John and if she has not done so already, start praying for Doe and Doe should do likewise.

John, Jane and Doe all need to do things together, such as, date nights / get togethers, day trips, weeknd trips, vacations, etc so as to build family unity.
 
Even though Gentile disciples of Christ are not required to keep the Law given to Moses (Acts 15, Galatians, Colos 2, Ephes 2 and Acts 21) I believe it is the wise husband who abides by the Word in Ex 21:10 and 1 Cor 7:1-5 in adding another wife to the family.
***Ex 21:10 If he takes ANOTHER WIFE to himself, her food, clothing, and conjugal privilege{5772} as a wife he shall not diminish.    11 And if he does not do these three things for her, then shall she go out free, without payment of money."<Br>
Strong's {5772} `ownah, o-naw'; meaning to dwell together; sexual (cohabitation): — duty of marriage. Ex 21 ESV
***1 Cor 7:2 But because of sexual immorality, each man SHOULD [i.e. is under the absolute command that
requires full obedience to] be HAVING/HOLDING/POSSESSING his own wife CLOSELY
ADHERING, CLINGING TO [her], and each woman SHOULD [i.e. is under the absolute
command that requires full obedience to] be HAVING/HOLDING/POSSESSING her own
husband CLOSELY ADHERING, CLINGING TO [him]. . . . 5 Do not deprive/defraud one another—except when you agree
[both consenting], for a time, to devote yourselves to [fasting] prayer. Then come together cohabiting again;
otherwise, Satan may tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

I learn from these passages that the husband should not initiate the practice of reducing the senior wife's conjugal privilege, their time of HAVING/HOLDING/POSSESSING/CLINGING to each other sexually and intimately when he adds another wife to the family. So if they were in the practice of having three nights of HAVING/HOLDING/POSSESSING/CLINGING to each other sexually and intimately, he should not reduce the number or duration of those times when the new wife comes on board.

Furthermore, in adding another wife, the husband must be very careful not to sexually and intimately deprive/defraud his senior wife because of the other wife, since the only legitimate reason he has for sexually and intimately depriving/defrauding her is for mutually agreed upon fasting prayer. It seems to me that if he is meeting both of his wives' needs without depriving the senior wife of their usual time together, and as unlikely as it seems, both of them are acutely aware of Satanic/demonic/fleshly temptations to sin sexually and so flee to their husband for intimacy in order to avoid sex sin by each having their own man, he could cast lots to see who would be with him first, or engage in the perilous task of meeting the needs of both of them at the same time, doing everything he can to help them keep from the sin of bisexuality, of becoming sexually intimate with each other while being intimate with their own man. That is no small task and I recommend avoiding that situation if at all possible.
 
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