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Who was Cain's wife?

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Isabella

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ChrisM said:
Note here that Warren would have to throw out the Genesis account as accurate. If one thinks for half a second, they would know that Cain married his sister.

No he didn't, he went away and married one of the other people. It is right there, I honestly do not know why people want to put forth this incest thing...urgh!

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bore Enoch; and he builded a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son Enoch.


It does not say that Cain and his family left, it just says Cain, he was unmarried and at some point when he dwelt in the land of Nod he acquired a wife. If he had a wife when he left than he would have been instructed to do so, like Noah was instructed to take his wife, his sons and his sons wives.

B
 
Re: Things Christians Say About Polygamy

But that does not tie in with the rest of the text which clearly states that Cain went and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden and his wife bore a son and he built a city (who for? Just the three of them?). Then he had many descendants, genetically it wouldn't even work, the line would die out pretty quickly. Even taking out the realities of inbreeding over successive generations it doesn't stand up to the light of the text.

26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. 28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.' 29

These are people created before Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve are created for the Garden, these other people are not.

RE: Noah, genetically that also doesn't work since no y-chromosome from Eve's husband survives to present day, if Noah's sons populated the earth and since Noah is a direct descendant of Adam this would not be the case. Therefore there were definitely other people about.

B
 
Re: Things Christians Say About Polygamy

In fact I think (and forgive me if you have heard me talk about this sort of thing before) but I think the text is extremely illuminating of the purpose of Adam compared to the other people. Firstly it says 29 And God said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food;

But then later it says and there was not a man to till the ground; Tilling refers to agriculture, to cultivating the ground, as we al know there was significant pre-agrarian societies, where did they come from if not the other people? If male and female he created them (note: plural) have already been created then why was Adam created? He was created to till, he is the first Agriculturalist. Otherwise the purpose of the garden is pretty moot since the mist had already risen up into the earth to water it and cause herbs to spring up. It appears to me that Adam was chosen and taken to the garden but he was alone and so Eve was created to join him. When Cain left he went back to lands occupied by those other people and there he met his wife.

B
 
Re: Things Christians Say About Polygamy

Regarding the creatures God made, the bible is silent on exactly who Cain took as a wife. Though there is no doubt that God found none suitable for Adam, the bible says nothing about whether Cain took a wife that God considered suitable, and it certainly does not say Cain took one of his sisters as a wife. Indeed, God could have created other creatures vastly similar to man and Cain could very well have taken one of them to be a wife. Who was Cain afraid of when God pronounced his curse? Did Cain fear Adam would kill him? Is this the conclusion you come to simply because the bible only mentions Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel? You presumably accept that Adam and Eve also had daughters, yet the bible does not declare it so. I believe they had daughters as well. However, the same reasoning permits that it is not unreasonable for there to be other creatures God also created. In addition, it is also reasonable that such creatures no longer exist because of the corruption Cain and those like him brought upon God's creation as sin reigned and increased upon the earth until Noah. Perhaps, like the wicked line of Cain, they were wiped out in the flood.

Recall also that God formed Eden and placed Adam and Eve in it. Thus, God's creation here on earth included both 'Eden' and 'not Eden', yet the bible says nothing of 'not Eden' before the fall and the corruption all suffered as a result of Adam's sin. Should this cause us to positively declare anything about 'not Eden' as truth? I find it unreasonable to conclude from the Word that God creating "man" male and female precludes God having made another creature unsuitable for man, but whom a sinful man (i.e. Cain) might choose to take a female subject thereof as a wife.

Please also understand that I make this point in the interest of being honest with one-another about what the bible says and what it doesn't say. When we declare confidently that it says more than it does, we do unjustly to those that cannot accept our unsupported view; we run the risk of contention and division among brothers and sisters in Christ over something the Word does not make entirely clear. We are to do justly, not unjustly. Thus, when there is reasonable doubt, it seems best to leave it at reasonable doubt.
 
Re: Things Christians Say About Polygamy

Short response:
Genesis 3:20 said:
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
You don't get much clearer than that. Eve was the mother of all, and therefore of Cain's wife, Shem's wife, and the wives of the many other sons that Adam and Eve no doubt had as they "went forth and multiplied" according to God's instructions.

Bels, Genesis 1:1-2:6 is a general account of the entire creation, as outlined in 2:4-5. Genesis 2:7-2:25 then gives a more specific account of some events which occurred on day 6 of the creation week - the creation of man and woman, and the naming of the animals. They are not two separate accounts, but the same account told at two very different scales - that of God, and that of man. The people created in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are the same.

Oreslag, the Bible does state clearly that Adam and Eve had both "sons and daughters" (Genesis 5:4), and Josephus says there were 33 sons and 23 daughters (whether the number is exactly correct is irrelevant). Those sons certainly had the opportunity of marrying sisters or nieces.
 
Cain married his sister

If you don't like that, if you don't believe that, you are at odd with scripture.

Other Possibilities? Sure anything is possible BUT is it reasonable in light of the evidence we have?

To suggest otherwise is to consider facts not in evidence and deny the sufficiency of scripture.
 
Re: Things Christians Say About Polygamy

Oreslag said:
Regarding the creatures God made, the bible is silent on exactly who Cain took as a wife. Though there is no doubt that God found none suitable for Adam, the bible says nothing about whether Cain took a wife that God considered suitable, and it certainly does not say Cain took one of his sisters as a wife.......

Please also understand that I make this point in the interest of being honest with one-another about what the bible says and what it doesn't say. When we declare confidently that it says more than it does, we do unjustly to those that cannot accept our unsupported view; we run the risk of contention and division among brothers and sisters in Christ over something the Word does not make entirely clear. We are to do justly, not unjustly. Thus, when there is reasonable doubt, it seems best to leave it at reasonable doubt.

Thanks Oreslag! That is what I am trying to get across, my theories are my own, I do not expect other people to accept them but that it seems people make assumptions about things that are not stated in the text (including people who came after, I would rather read what it says, rather than what others say about it!).

B
 
I read an article done by the creationist and scientist that runs answer in Genesis, Ken Ham. He contends that scientifically and mathematically, that if you start out with 1 flawed gene each in a male and a female species it takes a certain number (i don't remember how many he said) of generations for problems to appear in birth defects, and I happened to be almost exactly the number of generations that had occurred at the time of passing down the law on incest. This is amazing and proof of an omnipotent God. He not only is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God and creator of the universe,.science, and math.

I will find the article and post it here.

Robert
 
Once again, I must disagree with those arguing that scripture declares Cain took a sister as a wife. Particularly, I disagree that there is sufficient scriptural evidence to prove such a conclusion.

For example, scripture says Eve was the mother of all living as has been pointed out. Does this mean that Eve was the mother of oxen? Sounds ridiculous, contradicts extra-biblical (i.e. natural) evidence, and is not declared so in scripture - even though this is a legitimate meaning of the words - so the preponderance of evidence argues to the conclusion "no".

Scripture also says "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." However, scripture also clearly shows that Adam and Eve did not expire in body on the same day that they ate the forbidden fruit and fell into sin. One option is that the bible contradicts itself. However, I (and Christians generally) take the bible's self-declaration to be truth as axiomatic. Whereas proof is built on axioms, trying to build a proof of a contradiction presents a problem. One must either accept that the bible is false or that the bible is true and build their proof from that point forward. Thus, we find no help here. Another option is that the scripture refers to the spiritually dead (i.e. dead in sin). Now I can build a case from the assumption that the bible is truth to argue that Eve was the mother of all those who are not spiritually dead. Of course, I can also make a case for a dual meaning (i.e spiritual death on the day that they ate, and physical death sometime thereafter, as the both the bible and extra-biblical evidence argue).

Scripture also says (Jesus specifically), let the dead bury the dead. Sounds ridiculous. Does this mean that we should expect beings already dead to bury the newly died? Contradicts extra-biblical evidence, so consider other potential meanings. Perhaps "dead" refers to spiritually dead in their sin? This would fit. This would also confirm the use specified in the previous paragraph. Thus, I've additionally used scripture to confirm itself (i.e. self-consistency). I can reasonably conclude that Eve is the mother of all that will come to be spiritually alive. However, I still lack the evidence necessary to conclude that Eve is the mother of all beings who have physically lived. This conclusion fits the speculative offering of my previous post.

Likewise, the scripture does not say that Cain took a sister as a wife. Period. End of argument. It seems reasonable to extrapolate that he did exactly this. However, it is also reasonable to extrapolate otherwise. The main point is that both are extrapolations from, not declarations of, the scripture. I cannot overemphasize this point: before you declare that scripture "says" anything, you better be absolutely certain it is not simply your own extrapolation that declares it so, for you may be falling into a trap by so doing.
 
Long answer:

If we were to read the first few chapters of Genesis exactly as written, with no outside influences, the plain reading says the world was created in six days, mankind was created as Adam and Eve, and they sinned putting all their descendants (mankind) under a curse.

However the account is brief. It doesn't say a lot of things - it doesn't say how many children Adam and Eve had, doesn't specifically say who they married, what skin colour they had, what crops Cain was growing... So people speculate about these matters. Which is understandable. But WHY do people speculate that there were other people besides Adam and Eve?

The fundamental reason for this, for many people (I can't speak for the posters here) is because they already believe that science has shown a long history of human evolution etc, and they realise that this does not agree with the Creation account of Adam being created from the dust of the ground. They are faced with three options: Reject human evolution, reject Genesis, or fit evolution into Genesis somehow. They don't want to reject evolution, as they have a strong faith in science. They don't want to reject Genesis, as it is so foundational to all aspects of Christian theology. So they try and blend the two.

This blending takes a number of different forms - for instance the "gap" theory which sticks millions of years of history in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, and the "day-age" theory which says all the "days" of creation were long periods of time. Common to each of these is the existance of pre-Adamic humans, or human-like beings, who evolved and created the fossil record of human evolution. The idea that Cain married one of these is speculation that follows the acceptance of the existance of these people. The key issue here is to look at whether these people needed to exist at all.

If you have a good look at what bones have actually been found for these so-called "cave men", the lack of evidence becomes rather shocking. Most skeletons have been formed from one or two bones of disputable origin. The actual fossils in existance are just as readily (or more readily) interpreted as humans, diseased humans (Neanderthal looks like a modern human with severe rickets, and the fossils were initially classed as that before evolutionary theory was read into them), and apes. I would highly recommend the book "Bones of contention" by Marvin Lubenow if you want to understand this further, I used that as an "alternative textbook" throughout my final high school year of biology (human evolution was the key topic of the year), and it made such an impression on both the class and teacher that I had a fellow student track me down years later to see if I still had it. I should buy another copy.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/store/product/bones-of-contention/

As a scientist, I reject evolution entirely as it defies basic biology. Natural selection is a very real and important part of biology, as is artificial selection. Mutations are real as well. But when you add them all together you don't get "onward and upward" progress to new creatures, or new features that didn't exist previously. You rather get selection towards more and more narrowly specialised creatures that are right for particular niches. Organisms with more heterozygous gene pools (containing lots of options, like wild mountain sheep) are bred to get specialised organisms with homozygous gene pools (e.g. highly bred stud fine-wool Merino ewes), that are excellent for one specific purpose (the production of fine wool) but can never be bred back to the original without cross-breeding as they have lost a lot of the genetic information preset in their ancestors.

Real-world biology and breeding is the loss of genetic information to select the bits that are most desired. Evolution requires faith that over long periods of time, the processes we see today are actually wrong, and you actually get an increase in information through mutations (which we see damaging information, not creating it) and natural selection.

If I believed there was no God I would be forced to have faith in evolution as the most viable atheistic option, despite its inherent flaws. However as I know God is real there is no reason to shut my eyes and blindly accept something that defies so blatantly the science I work with every day, I know rather that God created the world. He created a load of organisms containing a lot of information, and these have been selected and specialised over time, which fits both the Creation account and real, present-day science.

If there is no evolution, there is no need for ape-men. There is no need to speculate that there might have been humans before Adam, we can simply accept the creation account in the most natural reading of the plain text.

This does lead to the conclusion that both Cain and Seth must have married their sisters. But this is not a problem biologically (can elaborate if you like), and if we think it is "icky" we have to remember that lots of other people think polygamy is "icky" so that's no reason to think it isn't true - there was no law against it at the time. The Bible is clear that Abraham also married his sister (half-sister), so I don't see a problem with accepting this - unless you have a larger presupposition you are trying to fit into the text as well.
 
FollowingHim said:
Long answer:

If we were to read the first few chapters of Genesis exactly as written, with no outside influences, the plain reading says the world was created in six days, mankind was created as Adam and Eve, and they sinned putting all their descendants (mankind) under a curse.

However the account is brief. It doesn't say a lot of things - it doesn't say how many children Adam and Eve had, doesn't specifically say who they married, what skin colour they had, what crops Cain was growing... So people speculate about these matters. Which is understandable. But WHY do people speculate that there were other people besides Adam and Eve?

The fundamental reason for this, for many people (I can't speak for the posters here) is because they already believe that science has shown a long history of human evolution etc, and they realise that this does not agree with the Creation account of Adam being created from the dust of the ground. They are faced with three options: Reject human evolution, reject Genesis, or fit evolution into Genesis somehow. They don't want to reject evolution, as they have a strong faith in science. They don't want to reject Genesis, as it is so foundational to all aspects of Christian theology. So they try and blend the two.
Regarding your first statement above (as an example), I cannot tell what you mean by the term "six days". Actually the plain reading uses a word that can correspond to a twenty-four hour period (as many commonly hold the creation to have been six twenty-four hour periods), or not. In particular, it can refer to a specific time of the day, an indefinite period of time, or a distinguishable period of time other than twenty-four hours, as is confirmed by context and usage in other parts of scripture (e.g. "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad” - John 8:56; "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" - Philippians 1:6; etc.). Thus, anyone claiming this phrase means six twenty-four hour periods is taking the scripture farther than the plain words used therein support.

Regarding why people speculate that there were beings besides Adam and Eve, it is the same reason people speculate about the other matters you mention. They would prefer to know for certain. Interestingly, I would ask you the same question: why do you speculate that Cain married his sister? Quite clearly the bible says no such thing, yet you've concluded that this is true. A pertinent scripture that comes to mind is: "You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2).

Regarding evolution, I realize that it does not agree with the Creation Account, but this is not my reason for rejecting this hypothesis. Evolution can be rejected very easily without the use of scripture (as you point out). Thus, all I need worry about is whether I should reject Genesis. Quite ironically, claiming that Cain married his sister by using as a factual statement "that no other beings existed" gives cause to reject Genesis! "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" (Romans 1:19-20). This is a straightforward claim of sovereignty over nature by God; only He has the power to create. Thus, if we find the remains of other beings, they were created by God. Thus, if we find other beings we encounter a contradiction if we believe "that no other beings existed." However, our error in this case would be believing "that no other beings existed." Notice we have no problem if we simply accept that (1) the scripture does not declare there were no other beings, and (2) "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Also noteworthy, there are multiple nearly complete skeletons of Neanderthals, and from the scientific perspective; apparently over 400 individuals are now represented by skeletons of varying completeness. Whereas I'm a physicist and not a biologist, I'm not qualified to criticize how such counts are made nor on what basis the argument is built. However, my wife is a biologist and has done much work in DNA and genetics, and she sees no difficulty in accepting the truth of the bible as well as scientific conclusions regarding neanderthals (apart from evolution as a necessary model to explain the evidence). Even though she prefers a different (extrapolative) explanation of things than do I, the fact that we both realize where the truth of scripture leaves off and our speculative entertainment begins permits peace and agreement between us.

Perhaps also noteworthy: "Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior. All of them are put to shame and confounded; the makers of idols go in confusion together. But Israel is saved by the Lord with everlasting salvation; you shall not be put to shame or confounded to all eternity" (Isaiah 45:15-17). Thus, we can conclude that those rejecting God's general and special revelations (i.e. the natural world and His Word, respectively) have in common that they go in confusion together.

Therefore, it seems right not to put a stumbling block of extrapolation in the path of brothers and sisters (or anyone else for that matter) by way of declaring the Word says more or less than it actually does say.
 
*sigh* Definitive answer needed in answer to the thread's question. Here goes:

Jeannie. Nothing else is known about her for certain, except that she bore him at least one son. *sigh* I've got her photo around here somewhere. Will try to scan and post it...

:lol:
 
FollowingHim said:
Long answer:...As a scientist, I reject evolution entirely as it defies basic biology. Natural selection is a very real and important part of biology, as is artificial selection. Mutations are real as well. But when you add them all together you don't get "onward and upward" progress to new creatures, or new features that didn't exist previously. You rather get selection towards more and more narrowly specialised creatures that are right for particular niches. Organisms with more heterozygous gene pools (containing lots of options, like wild mountain sheep) are bred to get specialised organisms with homozygous gene pools (e.g. highly bred stud fine-wool Merino ewes), that are excellent for one specific purpose (the production of fine wool) but can never be bred back to the original without cross-breeding as they have lost a lot of the genetic information preset in their ancestors.

Real-world biology and breeding is the loss of genetic information to select the bits that are most desired. Evolution requires faith that over long periods of time, the processes we see today are actually wrong, and you actually get an increase in information through mutations (which we see damaging information, not creating it) and natural selection.

If I believed there was no God I would be forced to have faith in evolution as the most viable atheistic option, despite its inherent flaws. However as I know God is real there is no reason to shut my eyes and blindly accept something that defies so blatantly the science I work with every day, I know rather that God created the world. He created a load of organisms containing a lot of information, and these have been selected and specialised over time, which fits both the Creation account and real, present-day science.

If there is no evolution, there is no need for ape-men. There is no need to speculate that there might have been humans before Adam, we can simply accept the creation account in the most natural reading of the plain text.
BTW, I should also point out for the record that we are largely in tremendous agreement. Kudo's to and thank you for this detailed explanation.
FollowingHim said:
This does lead to the conclusion that both Cain and Seth must have married their sisters. But this is not a problem biologically (can elaborate if you like), and if we think it is "icky" we have to remember that lots of other people think polygamy is "icky" so that's no reason to think it isn't true - there was no law against it at the time. The Bible is clear that Abraham also married his sister (half-sister), so I don't see a problem with accepting this - unless you have a larger presupposition you are trying to fit into the text as well.
I also agree that marrying their sisters is not a problem and is indeed a plausible explanation. Our difference is merely that it is a 'plausible explanation' rather than a 'solid conclusion' based upon the evidence presented in scripture.
 
Oreslag, I appreciate how much we agree about a lot of this, and it is very good that you are challenging us to not presume that which is not explicitly stated in scripture. And my previous statement that Cain and Seth "must" have married their sisters is incorrect, because even with all humans descending solely from Adam and Eve they could just as easily have married their nieces (or several nieces!), provided other brothers married their sisters to produce those nieces. The text does not state that they definately married their sisters.
Oreslag said:
Regarding your first statement above (as an example), I cannot tell what you mean by the term "six days". Actually the plain reading uses a word that can correspond to a twenty-four hour period (as many commonly hold the creation to have been six twenty-four hour periods), or not. In particular, it can refer to a specific time of the day, an indefinite period of time, or a distinguishable period of time other than twenty-four hours, as is confirmed by context and usage in other parts of scripture (e.g. "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad” - John 8:56; "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" - Philippians 1:6; etc.). Thus, anyone claiming this phrase means six twenty-four hour periods is taking the scripture farther than the plain words used therein support.
You are correct that the Hebrew word "yom", or "day", has a number of meanings, just like the English word day. It can mean the light portion of a day, a 24-hour period, or even an indefinate period of time. However we mustn't just look at a concordance, and presume that just because a word has lots of meanings any could be valid in that context. The precise meaning of a word with multiple meanings is defined by the context, and there are many separate elements of the context that make this word only able to be translated as a literal "day and night" day in Genesis 1.

1) The word "day" is defined by God in Genesis 1:5: "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." After creating light (v3-4), God invented the word "day" as a name for it, and the word "night" for the darkness. He then uses this new word to say that this was the "first day". The clearest reading of this is that the word is a literal day.

2) Throughout the Old Testament, whenever the word "day" is used in conjunction with either a number, the word "evening", or the word "morning", it is clear from the context that a 24-hour day is being spoken of. In Genesis 1, every instance of the word "day" is used in conjunction with ALL THREE of these terms, to make it extremely clear that it is a literal day. An indefinate period of time does not start with a morning and finish with an evening.

3) Exodus 20:8-11 makes the meaning even clearer:
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
If this meant:
Remember the sabbath indefinate period of time, to keep it holy. Six indefinate periods of time shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh indefinate period of time is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six indefinate periods of time the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh indefinate period of time: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath indefinate period of time, and hallowed it.
it would make no sense whatsoever. God is instructing us to work for six days and rest for one, to copy what He did. If that is not what He did, then the sabbath day makes no sense.

Finally, a non-scriptural reason to reject this theory: The only reason to ignore the plain reading of this and think the days were long periods of time is to read in the presupposed long ages of prehistory that are required in order for evolution to take place. But the creation days themselves describe things happening in a completely different order to evolutionary theory. Most critically, evolution says marine life came first, and everything else evolved from that. Genesis says plants came first (day 3), sea creatures didn't come until day 5. Evolution says the sun came before plants, Genesis 1 says plants came before the sun. Evolution says land animals came before birds and whales, Genesis 1 says birds and whales came before land animals. This theory is not usable, which is why it is uncommon among theologians.

The theory that has a lot more support among theologians is the "gap" theory, which fits all evolutionary history in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, then lets the creation days proceed as literal days after that with the world being "recreated" after all the fossils had already been made. This too has enormous problems (both linguistic and practical), which I can discuss if anyone is interested. However its prominance instead of the day-age theory is also strong evidence for the flaws in the day-age theory, as it shows that even prominant theistic evolutionists accept that the days of creation must be interpreted as literal 24-hour periods, it is not linguistically or scientifically sound to believe otherwise.
Evolution can be rejected very easily without the use of scripture (as you point out).
Preach it brother! Except you're not using scripture. So lecture it brother! :D
Also noteworthy, there are multiple nearly complete skeletons of Neanderthals, and from the scientific perspective; apparently over 400 individuals are now represented by skeletons of varying completeness. Whereas I'm a physicist and not a biologist, I'm not qualified to criticize how such counts are made nor on what basis the argument is built. However, my wife is a biologist and has done much work in DNA and genetics, and she sees no difficulty in accepting the truth of the bible as well as scientific conclusions regarding neanderthals (apart from evolution as a necessary model to explain the evidence). Even though she prefers a different (extrapolative) explanation of things than do I, the fact that we both realize where the truth of scripture leaves off and our speculative entertainment begins permits peace and agreement between us.
There are an enormous number of neanderthal skeletons in existance. However the difference between neanderthal and modern human skeletons is not great, hence the classification of them as purely a sub-branch of homo sapiens: Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. The features found on skeletons classed as "neanderthal" fit within the range of variation seen in humans, particularly when disease is taken into account. As I said though, check out the book in my earlier post if you want to look into this one in detail. I don't have a problem with seeing neanderthals as descendents of Adam just like us, there is no need to add other peoples to the Bible in order to explain them.
 
Acts 17
26  And he made from one he made from one man every nation of mankind to live y on all the face of the to live on all the face of the earth, having determined earth, having determined allotted periods and a the the boundaries of their dwelling place,

No hidden "other people"., just Adam.
 
I see I am seriously outclassed in this discussion. I have to admit that it is possible (however unlikely) that Cain stole his mother as a wife, and he could have married a niece. His mother is highly unlikely as Daddy was still alive at that time, but certainly it could be a sister or niece. As Eve was the mother of all living, one would have to change other passages of Scripture to say that there were other people. One issue is how all men are currently fleshly sinners as inherited by Adam. If this was not the case and there were other people who did not inherit the sinful nature of Adam through the flesh, it seems foolish to assume other sub-Adamic races, then we would have cause to question God's revelation in His Word as being irrelevant for some of those in our land.

Here's the issue from my perspective: God says what He says, man through the futility of his mind (Romans 1) observes what God made and tries to figure it out apart from and in contradiction to what God says expressly. Christians suppose that they can and should challenge the authority, historicity, and inspiration of God's Word in order to fit in the speculations of men. Look around, folks. This is why we are here in BF. We have gone back to what God's Word expressly says and stand firmly therein. We don't add to the Law those things that man has extrapolated, such as the illegality and sinfulness of polygyny. Rather we stand on what God expressly declares, including those difficult things, and let God be true even if every man (and his "evidence" which MUST be interpreted through his world view) be a liar. It is not adding to Scripture to declare that Cain married either his sister or niece as no other people existed in the historical biblical record. It is adding to God's Word to say that other people existed as such are never mentioned, alluded to, or otherwise supposed from the Biblical text.

I suppose God could have created through evolution, seeded life here from aliens, or any other such process. However, His revelation states expressly otherwise. I believe that if there were other sub- Adamic races, there would be major complications with salvation itself, the redemption found in Christ Jesus, and lots more. I am reminded to trust the Lord with all my heart, lean not to my own understanding, in all my ways to acknowledge Him and He will direct my paths. I know so little and God knows all. For me, I have to leave it there and stand firmly that wherever men's theories and findings contradict God's Word, that it is not God who is in error, but rather man whether intentionally (Romans 1) or through being deceived.
 
NeoPatriarch said:
Acts 17
26  And he made from one he made from one man every nation of mankind to live y on all the face of the to live on all the face of the earth, having determined earth, having determined allotted periods and a the the boundaries of their dwelling place,

No hidden "other people"., just Adam.

Direct translation from the Greek of the passage you quote: "and he made of one blood/bloodshed every nation of men to dwell upon all the face of the earth having confirmed beforehand times and the boundaries of their dwelling."

Thus, it does not say "made from one man", but rather "made from one blood/bloodshed." Whereas there is a word for "man", this passage could have easily been written "made from one man", but the fact is that it was not written that way. Thus, what are we to conclude? In good conscience I can only conclude that it might mean "made from one man", or it might mean "made from one bloodshed (e.g. the flood)", or it might mean something different of which I am ignorant. As I always say, trying to gauge the depth of your ignorance is a fool's game.

As far as I can tell, the only pertinent question to ask is: does it matter if you believe that it means "made from one man" or "something I do not fully appreciate"? The correct answer is no, it should not matter; our fallibility argues to the conclusion that if full intellectual understanding were necessary to salvation, all of us would be lost and forever condemned - which is contrary to scripture. Thus, who among us should judge the belief of another so long as that belief does not contradict God's general or special revelation? None of us are permitted such sovereignty.

As I pointed out in a previous post, we also need to revere God's general revelation as witnessed by His creation, and as detailed in Romans 1:18-20. Note in this passage that even apart from His special revelation (i.e. the Word), we are guilty because we can see the truth around us in His creation. How might this be true? He gave us brains with which to reason, and the creation around us includes what is now and what has been. Scripture declares we can know the truth thereby. However, we can be just as wrong in interpreting the creation as we can in interpreting the Word, but the thing to recognize is that both interpretations are fallible because we are merely men.

Hence, I am fully convinced that His general revelation through the witness of His creation and His special revelation through the Word do not contradict one-another and are not intended for the purpose of confusion (see my previous posts for additional details). Therefore, it is just as dangerous to extrapolate the Word such that it contradicts His creation as it is to interpret creation apart from His authorship of it.
 
Cow fam said:
I see I am seriously outclassed in this discussion. I have to admit that it is possible (however unlikely) that Cain stole his mother as a wife, and he could have married a niece. His mother is highly unlikely as Daddy was still alive at that time, but certainly it could be a sister or niece. As Eve was the mother of all living, one would have to change other passages of Scripture to say that there were other people. One issue is how all men are currently fleshly sinners as inherited by Adam. If this was not the case and there were other people who did not inherit the sinful nature of Adam through the flesh, it seems foolish to assume other sub-Adamic races, then we would have cause to question God's revelation in His Word as being irrelevant for some of those in our land.

Here's the issue from my perspective: God says what He says, man through the futility of his mind (Romans 1) observes what God made and tries to figure it out apart from and in contradiction to what God says expressly. Christians suppose that they can and should challenge the authority, historicity, and inspiration of God's Word in order to fit in the speculations of men. Look around, folks. This is why we are here in BF. We have gone back to what God's Word expressly says and stand firmly therein. We don't add to the Law those things that man has extrapolated, such as the illegality and sinfulness of polygyny. Rather we stand on what God expressly declares, including those difficult things, and let God be true even if every man (and his "evidence" which MUST be interpreted through his world view) be a liar. It is not adding to Scripture to declare that Cain married either his sister or niece as no other people existed in the historical biblical record. It is adding to God's Word to say that other people existed as such are never mentioned, alluded to, or otherwise supposed from the Biblical text.

I suppose God could have created through evolution, seeded life here from aliens, or any other such process. However, His revelation states expressly otherwise. I believe that if there were other sub- Adamic races, there would be major complications with salvation itself, the redemption found in Christ Jesus, and lots more. I am reminded to trust the Lord with all my heart, lean not to my own understanding, in all my ways to acknowledge Him and He will direct my paths. I know so little and God knows all. For me, I have to leave it there and stand firmly that wherever men's theories and findings contradict God's Word, that it is not God who is in error, but rather man whether intentionally (Romans 1) or through being deceived.

Regarding Eve being the mother of all the living, refer to the points I made in "Postby Oreslag » 8:11am - Mon, 14 Jan 2013" above. In view of this argument, which other passages of scripture need be changed in your opinion? Regarding the inheritance of the sinful nature, "other people" might not have been any different than the animals (i.e. not made in God's image). Recall, for example that "And the giants were upon the earth in those days. And after that, continually entered the sons of God to the daughters of men and procreated for themselves. Those were the giants, the ones from eon, the men renowned" (Genesis 6:4, Septuagint). Where do these giants lie in relation to salvation? Who knows and why does it matter to us? For Eve became the mother of all the living (both spiritually alive as quickened by God, and physically alive in the present day) when Noah proceeded from the line of Seth and all others but Noah's progeny were annihilated (e.g. giants, other people - if they existed - and whatever else God destroyed and may have chose not to record in the Word).

Regarding how God created, His revelation only expressly states that He did by His word, no additional information regarding the mechanism of creation (apart from that Adam was formed from the dust of the earth and the breath of life was given to him). Thus, anything further is speculative. However, whatever we believe (and as I've previously posted), it must be consistent with scripture and the witness of creation; which testifies of the truth as declared in Romans 1.
 
Oreslag,

As near as I can tell your translation is the only one in question. All other translators of the Bible came to the conclusion to use the word "man".

I'm not sure of your expertise, but I trust the Bible.

So the only problem exists IF you might be right, but ALL the major translation committees determined otherwise.

Is there a reason I should trust you over them?
 
NeoPatriarch said:
Oreslag,

As near as I can tell your translation is the only one in question. All other translators of the Bible came to the conclusion to use the word "man".

I'm not sure of your expertise, but I trust the Bible.

So the only problem exists IF you might be right, but ALL the major translation committees determined otherwise.

Is there a reason I should trust you over them?

Yes there is a reason. The basis of my claim does not rely on translating anything. I'm offering the Greek word from the original text that has been later translated into English. Acts was written by Luke the physician in Greek to Theopholis. The version you are using is a translation of the original text by "scholars" who chose to prefer one potential meaning over another potential meaning. I suggest you find a copy of the Septuagint (by far, the oldest scriptural text available - it is nearly a thousand years older than any other text apart from the fragments of the dead sea scrolls) and look at the words for yourself rather than trust what "scholars" have produced in translation over the years. Some of the differences are shocking and infuriating.

If you are interested in the particulars, "aima" is translated "man" in the beginning of your translation of the verse. However, your translation renders the very same word as blood in Matthew 23:30: "saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’" Context here makes clear that the meaning of this word is blood. Later in your translation of this same verse the word "anthropos" is translated as mankind. This same word is variously translated as man, mankind, human, or people. By my rough count, "anthropos" is used in nearly 600 chapters of the whole bible (Genesis through Revelation); and typically many times in a single chapter. Thus, it is used thousands of times to mean "man" or some variant thereof. Consequently, this word was available for God to use and would have been readily understood to mean man if God had chosen to use it.

Please understand I'm not arguing for one interpretation or another. God might very well have meant to use the word blood in this case to refer to man. My point is, "or not." We must not constrain the Word to say something it does not, for then we add to it. The fact is that the word used is the Greek word meaning blood, not man. Why the "scholars" chose to render it "man" instead of "blood" I can only guess. However, to turn "blood" into "man", it should be evident that "interpretation" intervened. Thus it becomes important to consider why scholars chose to "interpret"? Were they trying to bring clarity, or obscure truth? Perhaps they do not even know for certain.

One final thing: I'm not asking you to believe me, but rather to look into it for yourself and to work as hard as you can to remove the layers of "interpretation" that scholars have placed between you and the words of your God. I'm certainly no expert - I don't even read Greek - but I can compare scripture with scripture in the original language via a list of English equivalent words and consider context to arrive at potential meanings, just as translators do.

P.S. Upon further reflection, I considered that it might be a case of textual variants as well as translation. As it turns out, the word "aima" in my version of the Greek text does not appear in all versions (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament#Acts_of_the_Apostles under Acts 17:26). Note therein that the word "aima" is more commonly included than not. Note also that instead of "aima" or its absence, it appears that another word meaning "mouth" (as nearly as I can tell) occurs in a few texts. It appears that most English translations may have preferred the less common Greek text; which reads "and he made of one every nation of men to dwell upon all the face of the earth having confirmed beforehand times and the boundaries of their dwelling." Thus, the translators either exchanged the word "man" for the word "blood", or added the word "man" where it did not exist. Regardless, English translations are not a completely faithful reproduction of the Greek from which they were made.
 
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