why not multiple husbands?

[Hugh McBryde]

I don't accept a nation that is aborting it's females out of existence as 'culturally conservative',"

I did not say it was, I said that India is a culturally conservative nation, so framing this as some sort of Liberal ethics vs. Conservative ethics is flawed."

You just contradicted yourself, in the space of one sentence. While denying you called India Culturally conservative, you went on to do it again. These are your terms. Not mine. That was my point, to quote you again you "said that India is a culturally conservative nation," and I don't buy that. 200 years ago, India's culture did not include elective abortion, at least not as a widespread or accessible practice. I'm not sure I did anything to make it "Liberal v. Conservative." I more or less said it wasn't Conservative. Maybe I'm impugning moderates.

You seem willing to accept the abortion of female children"

I this is bogus and libel, I don't appreciate it and I think you have major comprehension skills if you read that into my posts."

You built upon the apocalyptic results of elective abortion in a non christian culturally conservative nation, a rhetorical justification for polyandry. I merely pointed out that was probably doubling down on error. You also slipped in a dig at men by depicting as slavering sex fiends preying on young girls.

Would that (India was) a Christian Nation."

Too bad."

Indeed.

 

[Isabella]

You just contradicted yourself, in the space of one sentence.

Are you being purposely obtuse? I was quite clear, I said India is a culturally conservative nation, just the fact that you deny that proves your ignorance of anything outside of your own nations politics. Just because they have sex selective abortion does not make it some sort of liberal haven. That is just insane!!!

200 years ago, India's culture did not include elective abortion, at least not as a widespread or accessible practice.

Medicalised abortion was not a part of any culture 200 years ago, however, non medical ie Herbal abortificants were available everywhere 200 years ago including the USA. I am not sure what your point is at all but clearly it doesn't come from any real knowledge of medical history.

You built upon the apocalyptic results of elective abortion in a non christian culturally conservative nation, a rhetorical justification for polyandry.

I made no justification just by pointing out that the kidnapping and rape of teenage girls is WORSE than Polyandry it really is that simple, if you don't want to accept that it is your prerogative but don't dare try and surmise my thought process because you are clearly not up to the task.

B

 

[CecilW]

Hmmm...

I don't think that Hugh is going to come to a meeting of the minds with you, Bels, or vice versa.

Guess maybe the sparring is a sorta fun all by itself. Maybe. My own interest (in the argument part) dropped off a while back, but that's just me. Sir BumbleBerry is laughing and rubbing his hands and saying, "There's gonna be BLOOD pretty quick!" :lol:

 

[Hugh McBryde]

You just contradicted yourself, in the space of one sentence."

Are you being purposely obtuse? I was quite clear, I said India is a culturally conservative nation, just the fact that you deny that proves your ignorance of anything outside of your own nations politics. Just because they have sex selective abortion does not make it some sort of liberal haven. That is just insane!!!"

I didn't say they were liberal, I said they weren't culturally conservative. This is evidenced by the fact that they have moved away from a culture that didn't abort babies, and now they do. An anecdotal case or two of abortion per thousand, hardly means a culture is "aborting babies." That means that people are aborting babies, but not as a general rule. I further threw in that a nation that values women, at least residually, might do so because it was once heavily influenced by Christianity. I decry abortion, but we generally apply it as a limit, not as a way to select gender.

200 years ago, India's culture did not include elective abortion, at least not as a widespread or accessible practice."

Medicalised abortion was not a part of any culture 200 years ago, however, non medical ie Herbal abortificants were available everywhere 200 years ago including the USA. I am not sure what your point is at all but clearly it doesn't come from any real knowledge of medical history."

So, do you care to quote statistics of any kind on Herbal elective abortions? Judging from family size and birthrate statistics which have been declining, I'd venture to say that it wasn't widespread. Hence I would say that India is no longer "culturally conservative" and I wouldn't call the USA culturally conservative either.

You built upon the apocalyptic results of elective abortion in a non christian culturally conservative nation, a rhetorical justification for polyandry."

I made no justification just by pointing out that the kidnapping and rape of teenage girls is WORSE than Polyandry it really is that simple, if you don't want to accept that it is your prerogative but don't dare try and surmise my thought process because you are clearly not up to the task."

I remember similar arguments to justify abortion, so I don't accept yours that a disparity built on one error ought to be corrected by something "not so bad" that would seek to mitigate the result of one error by embracing yet another error. Polyandry I would contend, is not widespread for a reason. When you combine it with my Christianity, I would throw in moral reasons as well.

Bels, you're going to have to get over people disagreeing with you without going for the throat of your opponent. You've engaged in considerable name calling, and I haven't said one thing at all about you personally. I disagree. You don't seem to be able to deal with that.

 

[Isabella]

Hmmm...

I don't think that Hugh is going to come to a meeting of the minds with you, Bels, or vice versa.

Guess maybe the sparring is a sorta fun all by itself.

No, it isn't fun, debate is fun, when people are working by the same rules and there is a similar playing field but it is definitely not unfounded accusations (that don't even make sense) are bandied about along with hyperbole. I am perfectly happy with someone not believing the way I do, I certainly am not happy when someone decides not to read what I actually write, but instead to make things up entirely. That is not fun. :evil:

B

 

[Isabella]

I didn't say they were liberal, I said they weren't culturally conservative.

And again, more cultural bias. You are mistaken if you think you know what the definition of conservative is. Clearly you don't since you assume it is what American culture considers Conservative values. Please read and learn something before coming out with such bunk!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

So, do you care to quote statistics of any kind on Herbal elective abortions? Judging from family size and birthrate statistics which have been declining, I'd venture to say that it wasn't widespread. Hence I would say that India is no longer "culturally conservative" and I wouldn't call the USA culturally conservative either

Total nonsense, do you realise just what you are writing? It is 'I don't know something and so I don't think it is true and therefore even though you are not saying it, I am saying it to try to make a point to look clever but alas it isn't working' That is all the above paragraph says to me.

Firstly, no there are no statistics for herbal abortion, just as there are no statistics for illegal medical abortions that have happened all over the world. Do you want to deny that they exist also? There is no Indian (or any other country) law which states 'If you are carrying a female fetus you are allowed to abort it up to 30 weeks of pregnancy....' that is not written into the law! The point is, medical technology ( better scanning) means that finding out the sex of a fetus has enabled people to confirm that they are having a girl and therefore can use abortion. They are not linked you know? There isn't a State sanctioned dual scanning and abortion clinic called 'No more Girls'.....good grief!

You do know that India is a vast nation with a huge urban population with access to birth control, that does effect family size. Families that do not want or can't afford to have many children, but do want children are the ones who are turning towards sex selection to get the desired boy. It was not abortion (medical or herbal) that was not available in the past, but sex selection. In many communities the girls just would have been disposed of 'after' birth. Would you like some infanticide statistics from 200 years ago as well or are you just going to dismiss what I say out of hand?

remember similar arguments to justify abortion, so I don't accept yours

I don't care whether you accept it or not, I care whether you do not try and put words or intentions into my mouth.

Bels, you're going to have to get over people disagreeing with you without going for the throat of your opponent.

I don't have an opponent, an opponent is someone who can string together a viable argument, Samuel was an opponent (wrt this thread), you however are just not making any sense and I find that an irritant, not a challenge to my intellect.

B

 

[Hugh McBryde]

From your Wikipedia link Bels:

Cultural conservatives hold fast to traditional ways of thinking even in the face of monumental change. They believe strongly in traditional values and traditional politics, and often have an urgent sense of nationalism."

Something to the slow side of "late adopters," or the high side of "laggards" might be more appropriate since your gender selecting pro choice Indians are not exactly "Holding fast to traditional ways of thinking even in the face of monumental change."

 

[Isabella]

From your Wikipedia link Bels:

Cultural conservatives hold fast to traditional ways of thinking even in the face of monumental change. They believe strongly in traditional values and traditional politics, and often have an urgent sense of nationalism."

Something to the slow side of "late adopters," or the high side of "laggards" might be more appropriate since your gender selecting pro choice Indians are not exactly "Holding fast to traditional ways of thinking even in the face of monumental change."

I wish there was a smilie banging it's head on the wall....Hugh, I am not so certain how to explain it any more simply for you. Traditional Indian culture values males above females, these 'conservative values' have continued to be perpetuated in the face of modern feminist thinking, more women in the Indian workplace and even a female PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Gandhi. Those people have been willing throughout the ages to dispose of females to advance their male children, abortion is one of the modern ways these traditionalists utilise to this aim....do you get that at all or am I just talking to a brick wall?

B

 

[Hugh McBryde]

Ok, but that's not what I referred to Bels, I referred to the fact that Elective Abortion isn't a culturally conservative Indian value. You combine your observed overvalue of men in traditional or "culturally conservative India" with the NON culturally conservative value of "Elective Abortion" and you have female genocide. A classic case of unintended consequence, for I am sure those who brought Elective Abortion to the Indian Sub Continent weren't promoting the erosion of the natural female majority.

Now what you have is cutting edge Indian nationals not choosing first the value of Equal Rights, but instead choosing the right of Elective Abortion for convenience sake and gender selection. That was not foreseen. Thus a sort of female genocide occurred when the western value of "safe" abortion was introduced to Indian society. Those of us who thought they would behave as westerners are now shocked to see that they aren't adopting a practice in the way we did.

Nevertheless, these people occupy the spectrum of Innovator/Early Adopter and perhaps even Early Majority. They aren't cultural conservatives. They've forsaken one of their essential values to adopt new ways. Sadly, the value of women wasn't the first thing they changed.

You are focusing only on the value of women in Indian Culture. For that value alone you label them Cultural Conservatives, but they're clearly forsaking Cultural Conservatism, just not by the pathway you prefer.

 

[Chaplain]

Okay people.......I have already given you the answer so just in case y'all missed it well here it is again...........

I'll make it a very simple answer......God's word does not support such a marriage / relationship. End of chapter 1 !!!

You aint a Christian...then go do what you want...It don't matter to you what Gods word says to you anyway. Trying to convince you of the wrongness is like beating a dead horse. Until you come to know Christ and are willing to follow what the Word says there is no point in discussing this any further....End of Story!!!

I at one time had the "authority" to lock and delete post but doubt I do any more seeing as I do not post very much any more. It would seem to me, that those of you who do WOULD HAVE DONE SO BY NOW with this subject........Jeez people, y'all are beating a dead horse with this thread. Did it ever accrue to y'all why it seems that the SAME people are always THE ONLY ONES POSTING. I have been on this message board from about day 3 or so of its inception, which means a heck of a long time. Go look at the members list and see where I fall in line of those who joined first. I enjoyed posting way back when but it got to where people would keep going and going and going about a subject, repeating themselves over and over in a thread until SOMEONE would finally lock it. You guys who are in charge of this message board now need to go back and rethink what this message board is all about and why it is here. Go back and read all the early post and see what we were all talking about. This board started as a means of support, help, learning and encouragement about Biblical Plural Marriage. In my opinion, it has lost it's way somewhere and needs to be found again.....If it got back to what it started out as, maybe, just maybe, some of us older members might get back involved posting again..Just my $1.50

 

[CecilW]

Ok, but that's not what I referred to Bels, I referred to the fact that Elective Abortion isn't a culturally conservative Indian value. You combine your observed overvalue of men in traditional or "culturally conservative India" with the NON culturally conservative value of "Elective Abortion" and you have female genocide.

Hugh, I believe Bels just made a case that the traditional Indian culture DID practice elective female abortion. They simply did it POST-birth, instead of early-term, late-term, or whatever that term is for when the baby is partially born.

Just like the word polygamy is a general term that can be broken down into more technically accurate terms such as polyandry or polygyny, so the term abortion may well be considered a general term with the technical term for post-birth abortion being infanticide.

I certainly see it that way. Though I personally would tend to use one term for when a drunk parent blows their cool and shakes the child to death, and the other when it is a specific decision based solely on the child's gender, state of health, etc.

So, for whatever it's worth, Hugh, you appear to be vociferously arguing a point that has only a whisper of merit. I do hope that this argument ends, either by you accepting defeat or by Bels deciding to ignore your posts on this topic. It has passed well beyond debate into argument and, as Bels says, imputing meaning and intention to her that I just do not see in her posts.

*Sigh* It's been real ...