On a lighter note...
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Taken in Hand/Domestic Discipline
- Thread starter Cool Wifey Jones
- Start date
Been a very long time since I saw that.. lolOn a lighter note...
Example of abuse of authority..
I've been drinking my coffee pondering why there is such an opposition to this when DD seems to have a biblical backing and I think I have got it. The sticking point is trust. Now men in general probably haven't done much in order to earn the trust of women in a broad sense, but what about in a personal one? Do the wives actually trust their husbands enough to hand over this kind of authority? This is a very personal question, but I think it is the one on which all of this hinges. I know no one wants to give up their control and subject themselves to someone else's authority, but in doing so there is freedom.
And a side note that struck me this morning typing this is that our grasp of authority dictates the level of interaction we can receive from the Father. In the story of the centurion he said he understood authority being under authority and in authority himself. That being said, he was the first Gentile to receive a miracle from Jesus, and Jesus didn't have to be there in person. Understanding authority he perceived Jesus' authority. He received this special miracle because of his faith and his grasp on authority. That being said it would make sense that the enemy would attack authority and our knowledge of how it works. I have heard all my life that the enemy is after families and he most definitely is. But maybe what he is really after is the structure of authority. He used a bypass in authority to get Eve to eat the fruit first so that he could get Adam to eat it. The enemy most definitely understands authority and I think he aims to make sure we don't. That is a big tangent and the more I think on it the more I want to type but as it has been discussed here on BF, Authority is kind of a big deal.
Any ways back on topic, the end goal of this approach isn't to punish the wife. The end goal is to bring about change that brings about good fruit. Pruning is always uncomfortable but pruning in itself is merely just the means. It's good fruit that we are after.
Hebrews 12:11 (ESV)
For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
When my wife and children are following my lead the family is a direct representation of my leadership much like the Church when its doing as it is supposed to is a direct representation of God's leadership. That means if we succeed or fail, it falls on my shoulders. Not my wife's and not my children's. They receive freedom and I find responsibility.
I know this is an extremely disjointed, rabbit-running post, but my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. The main point I want to get across is that DD requires a great deal of trust in the marriage and I think those against DD might have trust issues in their marriage or control issues. I'm not attacking anyone or casting any kind of judgement. I'm just pondering and writing and I can be way off.
And a side note that struck me this morning typing this is that our grasp of authority dictates the level of interaction we can receive from the Father. In the story of the centurion he said he understood authority being under authority and in authority himself. That being said, he was the first Gentile to receive a miracle from Jesus, and Jesus didn't have to be there in person. Understanding authority he perceived Jesus' authority. He received this special miracle because of his faith and his grasp on authority. That being said it would make sense that the enemy would attack authority and our knowledge of how it works. I have heard all my life that the enemy is after families and he most definitely is. But maybe what he is really after is the structure of authority. He used a bypass in authority to get Eve to eat the fruit first so that he could get Adam to eat it. The enemy most definitely understands authority and I think he aims to make sure we don't. That is a big tangent and the more I think on it the more I want to type but as it has been discussed here on BF, Authority is kind of a big deal.
Any ways back on topic, the end goal of this approach isn't to punish the wife. The end goal is to bring about change that brings about good fruit. Pruning is always uncomfortable but pruning in itself is merely just the means. It's good fruit that we are after.
Hebrews 12:11 (ESV)
For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
When my wife and children are following my lead the family is a direct representation of my leadership much like the Church when its doing as it is supposed to is a direct representation of God's leadership. That means if we succeed or fail, it falls on my shoulders. Not my wife's and not my children's. They receive freedom and I find responsibility.
I know this is an extremely disjointed, rabbit-running post, but my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. The main point I want to get across is that DD requires a great deal of trust in the marriage and I think those against DD might have trust issues in their marriage or control issues. I'm not attacking anyone or casting any kind of judgement. I'm just pondering and writing and I can be way off.
I think you are right as far as authority being a big issue, trust and understanding each other is too.
Communication is making sure that the message intended is the message received....also important.
Perspective is an interesting thing too.
I remember hearing a horse trainer ask his audience while explaining his training philosophy "When you're riding and you ask your horse to stop, why does it obey?" Many said "Because you pull on the reins." That may well be the rider's perspective but this trainer was helping people understand their horses better. The correct answer according to John Lyons was "The horse stops so you will STOP pulling on the reins!"
It is often said by horse trainers that it is the giving not the taking that gets results.... it was certainly the giving of YHWH's Son that changes people internally in ways that external forces might not.....but knowledge of His righteous judgements and His definitions of sin helps us value the gift that was given.
No one wants to ride a horse that is willful and not submitted. It is a dangerous fight all the way. But if they trust and respect you they will go anywhere you ask.
Just my after a short night and a busy morning but before coffee thoughts.
Communication is making sure that the message intended is the message received....also important.
Perspective is an interesting thing too.
I remember hearing a horse trainer ask his audience while explaining his training philosophy "When you're riding and you ask your horse to stop, why does it obey?" Many said "Because you pull on the reins." That may well be the rider's perspective but this trainer was helping people understand their horses better. The correct answer according to John Lyons was "The horse stops so you will STOP pulling on the reins!"
It is often said by horse trainers that it is the giving not the taking that gets results.... it was certainly the giving of YHWH's Son that changes people internally in ways that external forces might not.....but knowledge of His righteous judgements and His definitions of sin helps us value the gift that was given.
No one wants to ride a horse that is willful and not submitted. It is a dangerous fight all the way. But if they trust and respect you they will go anywhere you ask.
Just my after a short night and a busy morning but before coffee thoughts.
Well, and it has to do with corporate/community judicial punishment, so is not a model for husbandly discipline of the adults in his home.
Side note: I believe under European feudal law, a lord would also have authority to punish, corporally, both men and women under his jurisdiction. Just another example, fwiw, that whether corporal punishment is a useful tool for discipline is a separate question from whether a husband has real authority over his wife to compel the sort of behavior he expects for his household.
You sell yourself short, friend.
That was very well explained.
I'm sorry ma'am but your Bible does indeed command wives to fear their husband.It's truly amazing to me @rockfox how you're always the expert on the women's do's and don't's but can't seem to pull it together to put the shoe on the other foot! IF @Slumberfreeze's Biblical solution and @Joleneakamama's Biblical assessment is an overly simplistic and ideal view of life and female psychology, then WHAT do you call your "rule with fear and coercion method"?!? Trying to write your own bible?!? Cuz it ain't in my Bible!!!! Guess THAT would be humanism to the core--uhumm--idolatry
Damn this woman is something else. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee doggey!Glad you mentioned crucifixion here. 'Cause that's exactly what the Husband told his Bride to do.
This thread has been quite emotional for many of us. In fact, I will have to repent of conclusions I have had regarding the area of discipline. I’ll explain later.
Acts 17:10-11 (KJV) 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
I will use KJV scripture, and try to use only as my point of reference on this text.
Let’s first go to Proverbs 13:24 as I believe this scripture could be quoted by most:
“He that sparethhis rodhateth his son: but he that loveth him chastenethhim betimes.”
We can look at a few important words. (using the Strong’s as my reference)
Spareth – to withhold, restrain, hold back
Rod – rod, staff, branch
Chasteneth – discipline, chastening, correction
Betimes – dawn, to seek, seek early or earnestly, in the morning
Dawn, seek early, in the morning, all references to beginning of the day. I take this to mean “an early part of life, when the child is young.” I think this is common sense conclusion to the word “betimes”.
In Ephesians 6:4 it says
“And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.”
We have all seen where extreme discipline can “provoke your child to wrath.” This is a subject for another thread, but has become a reality in our society from use of ungodly discipline.
Here the word “provoke” is defined in the Strong’s as “to rouse to wrath, to provoke, exasperate, anger”.
Nurture
Admonition
Another scripture for this discussion is Proverbs 23:13-14:
“Withhold not correctionfrom the child:for if thou beatesthimwith the rod, heshall not die.”
Correction - discipline, chastening, correction
Beatest - to strike, smite, hit (additional info in your Strong’s Concordance)
(the word child used in Proverbs 23:13 could be a good discussion. At what age does a boy become a man? A boy goes through Bar Mitzvah at age 13)
Earlier, I mentioned after a little research, I realized I would have to repent based on the conclusions I have discovered. If you re-read Proverbs 13:24 and Proverbs 23:13-14, you can discover corporal punishment is an acceptable practice as defined in the Bible. However, in each of these two verses, it is clear, corporal punishment in these two cases, are both to correcting a sonwho is a child, “but he that loveth himchastenethhimbetimes” and “for if thou beatesthimwith the rod, he shall not die.” Since we are a “getting back to scriptures group” where many rewrite the scriptures, I realized that in spanking my daughters, I had no Biblical basis in doing so. I will be having a talk with God about this later this evening. In addition, I see no reference to women to a girl child.
In Ephesians 5:25 it says
25“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Verse 28 is of interest to this thread. “Love the wife as their own bodies.” If, as head of household, we subject ourselves to corporal punishment when we are in rebellion to Christ (our head) and the Word, I would not understand you, but you clearly would not be a hypocrite. However, if you are unwilling to submit yourself for a corporal punishment correction, then your hypocrisy is self-evident.
In verse 29 we have a prime example of how we are to treat our wives. “29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.” With Christ being our example, we have to look at how he conducted himself in regards to the church for us to know how we are to treat our wives.
A prime example is in John 8:3-9
“3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, ‘He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.’ 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
My point in this verse is the penalty for adultery was death. Jesus scribbled in the dirt (probably sins they had committed, but that’s just a personal opinion). And what his conclusion?
“10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, ‘Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?’ 11 She said, ‘No man, Lord’. And Jesus said unto her, 'Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.’”
This was not a sink full of dishes or an out of balance checkbook, but it was a sin that carried the death sentence. “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.”
Grace became the motivating factor of Christ. As for the woman at the well? The same thing for her, grace.
My conclusion is the woman is the weaker vessel. We are to protect them. If we would never allow another man to spank our wives, how hypocritical is it to spank them ourselves? One of the things that drew me to this site, was the elimination of “cherry picking” the scriptures. On this subject, I have seen cherry picking at its finest. I asked several days ago for scriptural reference to corporal punishment for a wife. The challenge is to refer to solid scripture to back such an idea. I toss this back to opposing views.
Acts 17:10-11 (KJV) 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
I will use KJV scripture, and try to use only as my point of reference on this text.
Let’s first go to Proverbs 13:24 as I believe this scripture could be quoted by most:
“He that sparethhis rodhateth his son: but he that loveth him chastenethhim betimes.”
We can look at a few important words. (using the Strong’s as my reference)
Spareth – to withhold, restrain, hold back
Rod – rod, staff, branch
Chasteneth – discipline, chastening, correction
Betimes – dawn, to seek, seek early or earnestly, in the morning
Dawn, seek early, in the morning, all references to beginning of the day. I take this to mean “an early part of life, when the child is young.” I think this is common sense conclusion to the word “betimes”.
In Ephesians 6:4 it says
“And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.”
We have all seen where extreme discipline can “provoke your child to wrath.” This is a subject for another thread, but has become a reality in our society from use of ungodly discipline.
Here the word “provoke” is defined in the Strong’s as “to rouse to wrath, to provoke, exasperate, anger”.
Nurture
Admonition
Another scripture for this discussion is Proverbs 23:13-14:
“Withhold not correctionfrom the child:for if thou beatesthimwith the rod, heshall not die.”
Correction - discipline, chastening, correction
Beatest - to strike, smite, hit (additional info in your Strong’s Concordance)
(the word child used in Proverbs 23:13 could be a good discussion. At what age does a boy become a man? A boy goes through Bar Mitzvah at age 13)
Earlier, I mentioned after a little research, I realized I would have to repent based on the conclusions I have discovered. If you re-read Proverbs 13:24 and Proverbs 23:13-14, you can discover corporal punishment is an acceptable practice as defined in the Bible. However, in each of these two verses, it is clear, corporal punishment in these two cases, are both to correcting a sonwho is a child, “but he that loveth himchastenethhimbetimes” and “for if thou beatesthimwith the rod, he shall not die.” Since we are a “getting back to scriptures group” where many rewrite the scriptures, I realized that in spanking my daughters, I had no Biblical basis in doing so. I will be having a talk with God about this later this evening. In addition, I see no reference to women to a girl child.
In Ephesians 5:25 it says
25“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Verse 28 is of interest to this thread. “Love the wife as their own bodies.” If, as head of household, we subject ourselves to corporal punishment when we are in rebellion to Christ (our head) and the Word, I would not understand you, but you clearly would not be a hypocrite. However, if you are unwilling to submit yourself for a corporal punishment correction, then your hypocrisy is self-evident.
In verse 29 we have a prime example of how we are to treat our wives. “29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.” With Christ being our example, we have to look at how he conducted himself in regards to the church for us to know how we are to treat our wives.
A prime example is in John 8:3-9
“3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, ‘He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.’ 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
My point in this verse is the penalty for adultery was death. Jesus scribbled in the dirt (probably sins they had committed, but that’s just a personal opinion). And what his conclusion?
“10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, ‘Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?’ 11 She said, ‘No man, Lord’. And Jesus said unto her, 'Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.’”
This was not a sink full of dishes or an out of balance checkbook, but it was a sin that carried the death sentence. “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.”
Grace became the motivating factor of Christ. As for the woman at the well? The same thing for her, grace.
My conclusion is the woman is the weaker vessel. We are to protect them. If we would never allow another man to spank our wives, how hypocritical is it to spank them ourselves? One of the things that drew me to this site, was the elimination of “cherry picking” the scriptures. On this subject, I have seen cherry picking at its finest. I asked several days ago for scriptural reference to corporal punishment for a wife. The challenge is to refer to solid scripture to back such an idea. I toss this back to opposing views.
The fact that we are told to discipline sons does not, in itself, mean we should not discipline daughters. This is an argument from silence. In the absence of any verse to state there is a distinction between the sexes on a matter, I would usually presume that both sexes are to be treated equally and the male was referred to simply by way of illustration.
I agree this is our command. I can see very few situations where corporal punishment of a wife would be needed or justified, and would fit within "love their wives as their own bodies". And, as stated before, I don't do it myself. However, this is not a blanket prohibition of corporal punishment, and can be interpreted in different ways.
The biggest danger with domestic discipline is that a man who is a poor husband can potentially use this as a substitute for improving their own leadership. Rather than solve the problems in their home through self-improvement, they might choose the shortcut of forcefully making what they want happen through their wives. That is where your illustration of "cast the first stone" is particularly pertinent. And there lies the risk of a downhill spiral into male-initiated domestic violence.
Its close to my bed time so I am going to get to as many of these as I can. The first is that Grace is the other side of the coin from discipline. Grace can only be exercised when punishment was the other option. I think its an old saying that "Without Punishment, Grace is pointless. Without Grace, punishment is useless." That being said I am going to try and get through this pretty quick.
1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
This is a real quick answer to the question of do you discipline yourself. First of all I believe God chastises the man and the bible says if He doesn't you are not sons. Paul says he chastises himself here in this verse or uses terms like crucifying his flesh in others. He doesn't physically hurt himself but does bring his flesh under his control unless God should chastise him.
I feel like discipline may be viewed different now than it was in Bible times. We view it as some negative thing probably because we have seen it misused which from your post I believe you have Phillip. That is unfortunate and in fact I would imagine most people now days don't use discipline and the ones who do use it violently or at best incorrectly but the Bible states many times over that God disciplines us because He loves us and we also discipline out of love.
Proverbs 3:12
for the LORD disciplines the one He loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
My wife asked me what happens when foolishness is bound up in the heart of your wife. That is a good question.
The more I think on this the more I want to get back to discipline as a concept. Discipline seems awful harsh in the Bible but God says He does it because He loves us. Seeming so harsh though, we water it down and in doing so water down God's grace that spares us the penalty of what we deserve. I love Grace, I do, but isn't it good to know God loves you and you are a son when that discipline comes. There is a neat dynamic when God calls us His children and His bride. He uses both pictures to try and explain his nature and ways to us. I guess my thought now is did He do that because so many of these rules overlap.
Anyways I tried to write this really fast so hopefully it helps. There are a lot more verses on disciplining that are not geared towards children but what I really want to do is distance the idea of discipline from abuse. I see how for children everyone seems a lot more comfortable acknowledging the line but when it is adults it seems we lost that and I can see why. I know it has been misused many more times between adults than it has been used well but honestly the same can be said of Polygamy. I just don't want to throw something out because of its misused by the few or the majority.
1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
This is a real quick answer to the question of do you discipline yourself. First of all I believe God chastises the man and the bible says if He doesn't you are not sons. Paul says he chastises himself here in this verse or uses terms like crucifying his flesh in others. He doesn't physically hurt himself but does bring his flesh under his control unless God should chastise him.
I feel like discipline may be viewed different now than it was in Bible times. We view it as some negative thing probably because we have seen it misused which from your post I believe you have Phillip. That is unfortunate and in fact I would imagine most people now days don't use discipline and the ones who do use it violently or at best incorrectly but the Bible states many times over that God disciplines us because He loves us and we also discipline out of love.
Proverbs 3:12
for the LORD disciplines the one He loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
My wife asked me what happens when foolishness is bound up in the heart of your wife. That is a good question.
The more I think on this the more I want to get back to discipline as a concept. Discipline seems awful harsh in the Bible but God says He does it because He loves us. Seeming so harsh though, we water it down and in doing so water down God's grace that spares us the penalty of what we deserve. I love Grace, I do, but isn't it good to know God loves you and you are a son when that discipline comes. There is a neat dynamic when God calls us His children and His bride. He uses both pictures to try and explain his nature and ways to us. I guess my thought now is did He do that because so many of these rules overlap.
Anyways I tried to write this really fast so hopefully it helps. There are a lot more verses on disciplining that are not geared towards children but what I really want to do is distance the idea of discipline from abuse. I see how for children everyone seems a lot more comfortable acknowledging the line but when it is adults it seems we lost that and I can see why. I know it has been misused many more times between adults than it has been used well but honestly the same can be said of Polygamy. I just don't want to throw something out because of its misused by the few or the majority.
That is a beautiful picture.
@Joleneakamama point is well made, external forces do not change the internal attitude. It create obedience, not submission.
Some horses are more willful, it takes a bit to force them to obey. Others, they only need the bridle to direct them. A really good horse and rider can turn on a dime with only the slightest movement of the reigns to communicate. Others horses are better trained, better dispositioned, that with the right rider they don't even need reigns. The rider can by their movement communicate to the horse where to go. They move as one.
It's ultimately not about obedience but communication. It is truly amazing how much we can cross the communications gap between species. They are very smart. And I don't mean just horses either.
Some horses are bad, and only the very most skilled of trainers can deal with them. Some riders are bad, and will mess up a horses training; or at least get ignored and disrespected by the animal. Some are just more spirited and take a more skilled handler.
This is all true, although my experience is mostly not with horses but cows. And I can say that not just from my own training experience, but from working with animals others trained and some which others abused. The later behaved just the same as the others so long as I kept in mind what odd little thing would trigger their terror reflex until I worked them past those triggers. The interesting part is, not only can animals learn rules, sometimes they'll willfully and knowingly disregard them and then act chagrin when caught. I can even yell their name from across the field and they'll quickly stop. Well most of them; personalities.
Because we understand each other, can communicate, and they acknowledge my place at the top of the herd; there is a lot of mutual trust between us. Peace. But if I'm not at the top of that totem pole; that is when it gets dangerous.
I had dairy goats growing up. I understand very well how deliberately ornery some can be. Most of ours would go straight to the milk stand. One doe was perfect unless she was in season, then she went straight to the buck pen. Lol
Our sheep are the kind of smart that know the limits of where they can graze ....and sometimes disregard warnings.
The boys that herd the sheep have made believers of them.
Bingo!
With our children some took more convincing then others. Another training rule is you only use as much force as it takes to get the desired response, but you DO use as much force as it takes.
Herding sheep helped me truly understand the parables of Jesus and how God feels about us most of the time. Sigh. What stupid creatures they can be. But I love them.
Goats I never cared for, just unrelentingly cruel to one another; there's another parable tie-in.
You took the words out of my mouth. And another admonishment for the soft hearted parent...if the kid is willing to stubbornly bear the punishment over such a little thing instead of obey, the punishment must not be that bad. Although, inconsistent enforcement will complicate this.
Goats I never cared for, just unrelentingly cruel to one another; there's another parable tie-in.
With our children some took more convincing then others. Another training rule is you only use as much force as it takes to get the desired response, but you DO use as much force as it takes.
You took the words out of my mouth. And another admonishment for the soft hearted parent...if the kid is willing to stubbornly bear the punishment over such a little thing instead of obey, the punishment must not be that bad. Although, inconsistent enforcement will complicate this.
But can you put a blanket prohibition on something God doesn't even address? He tells wives to submit to their husbands in all things. Can you show me how you justify this exception. It's been shown multiple times that God will lovingly discilpline His church so you can't prohibit with the "love of Christ" verse. How do you justify a blanket prohibition?
Hey Zec, a friend of mine, in the ministry, told me if you see a verse in the Bible, try and find another verse that backs up the verse you’re reading. @Soldier's Psalm brought out these two scriptures.
Proverbs 3:12
for the LORD disciplines the one He loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
The I posted Proverbs 13:24 and Proverbs 23:13-14. In each of these verses, mine and @Soldier's Psalm’s, all four verses talk of disciplining a son while still a child.
Disciplining a daughter or a wife are not mentioned. As I read and studied whether or not polygyny was real for today or not, I studied from Dr Luck. He mentioned the idea of first mention.
One of Dr Luck’s teachings was on Lamech. He explained the argument against multiple wives was that Lamech was a polygynyst. Lamech was a murderer. Since Lamech was a murderer, polygyny is a sin. I won’t take time with additional arguments as I am sure we all know them. If not, it’s time for the reader to study.
Those four verses clearly tell to use corporal punishment on a son, IF NEEDED. I don’t want outside sources thinking we’re stupid with discipline. After four clear verses on discipline, there are no clear verses of using corporal punishment on daughters or wives. In some cases, taking away the credit card may be more hurtful.
My contention is show me the verses to back up your claim. I’ve shown mine, not all of them, never show all the cards in your hand. Discipline is clearly discussed in the Bible. For this discussion, it is a particular type of discipline we’re going over.
To reiterate, the verses I’ve seen and posted discuss a son, a son child. For an opposite point of view, I only ask that a clear scripture verse be used. No analogies, no emotions, and as they used to say in ‘Dragnet’, “Just the facts, ma’am!”
Proverbs 3:12
for the LORD disciplines the one He loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
The I posted Proverbs 13:24 and Proverbs 23:13-14. In each of these verses, mine and @Soldier's Psalm’s, all four verses talk of disciplining a son while still a child.
Disciplining a daughter or a wife are not mentioned. As I read and studied whether or not polygyny was real for today or not, I studied from Dr Luck. He mentioned the idea of first mention.
One of Dr Luck’s teachings was on Lamech. He explained the argument against multiple wives was that Lamech was a polygynyst. Lamech was a murderer. Since Lamech was a murderer, polygyny is a sin. I won’t take time with additional arguments as I am sure we all know them. If not, it’s time for the reader to study.
Those four verses clearly tell to use corporal punishment on a son, IF NEEDED. I don’t want outside sources thinking we’re stupid with discipline. After four clear verses on discipline, there are no clear verses of using corporal punishment on daughters or wives. In some cases, taking away the credit card may be more hurtful.
My contention is show me the verses to back up your claim. I’ve shown mine, not all of them, never show all the cards in your hand. Discipline is clearly discussed in the Bible. For this discussion, it is a particular type of discipline we’re going over.
To reiterate, the verses I’ve seen and posted discuss a son, a son child. For an opposite point of view, I only ask that a clear scripture verse be used. No analogies, no emotions, and as they used to say in ‘Dragnet’, “Just the facts, ma’am!”
I'm not sure what you're getting at with Lamech, we all know that the idea that Lamech was a murder = polygyny is sinful is completely false, won't explain why here, if it wasn't false though we'd be off-track with this entire ministry. I don't know what point you're trying to make with this, can you clarify?
I agree. And if you have to resort to physical punishment in order to do that communication, to a grown woman who can fully understand normal language (we're not talking a toddler here), there's probably something else wrong.
Of course there is something wrong, or she wouldn't have disobeyed. It would be great if people just always obeyed; but they don't, and thats the reality of it. In reality some people need incentives to obey. Carrot and stick. A good leader will use both positive and negative incentives (whatever those may be).
Some women who embrace DD speak of the value of absolution they get from it. I don't understand that, but it is what it is. Given the fact many societies, including ours for a long time, used corporal punishment for men, women and children, I have a hard time saying that there is something wrong with the woman who feels that way.