The sad react is the closest to 
i could find
i could find
-
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Far Above Rubies
- Thread starter Immaheadout
- Start date
a. Exceptions only prove the rule; and
b. You'll get no argument from me that this is now part of what it means for men to behave as men.
But we're not in 100% agreement here. One does not come before the other, especially not in Scripture, which does not apply only to men. Women are just as exhorted to be submissive as men are to love and be leaders. In fact, Paul actually mentions the submission first.
Women have the freedom to pursue whatever they want to pursue, but they have no more right to expect any particular result than men have the right to expect what they want. The leftover women can pursue monogamy all they want, but most will end up spending the last few decades of their lives alone and in relative poverty.
80% of women are actively pursuing 10% of the men. That means 70% will die alone, which is shorthand for spending those last few decades without companionship or full covering.
I used to agree with this, but it only appears that way when that is the only variable one considers. As it turns out, both observation and statistics place far more importance for why it's difficult for men to find additional women willing to be wives on (a) cultural taboos and feminist hypnosis inspiring women to falsely believe they deserve more than they deserve, and (b) active sabotage on the part of first wives to prevent second wives.
The net result is hordes of uncovered women who depend on indirect governmental and other services from men at large -- but little or no companionship, passion or satisfaction. Meanwhile, those seeking second wives and the burdens as well as pleasures associated with them continue to have their first wives and all the companionship and satisfaction associated with them.
This MAY be true, but it becomes decreasingly relevant to me the more I realize that the leftover women need us men who are willing to take them on far, far more than we need them.
It's a sad state of affairs. <---- Lots of double meaning in what I said just there
And what kind of man can overcome these problems? An average guy isn't even going to try.
You reminded me of a joke:
Q: Why do most men die before their wives do?
A: Because they want to.
This is both sad and hilarious. Hilaresad? Sadlarious?
In all fairness, Keith said men, not males.
Your point is correct in so far as your point is a utilitarian one, but it misses the point I'm making, which is that (a) it isn't women's place to tell men what hoops they need to jump through, and (b) it is women who suffer as a result of playing so hard to get.
Also, to begin with, I am no fan of trying to do anything, and in the case of covering women I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that it's SNAFU territory to expend energy attempting to correct the female end of the reasons why they aren't being covered. Having elevated lusting for approval from the world higher than lusting for the approval of God, and combining that with demanding far too much while being willing to contribute far too little, Modern Women are too busy digging their own virtual graves to bother putting great effort into turning them around.
I get it that, maybe if men become Super Human, they will score higher in the Game of Polygyny, but the efforts of men can be placed in much more productive pursuits. The prize for the Game of Polygyny simply isn't worth the price. It's as if we're being asked to beg women to accept winning lottery tickets.
Have you been listening to @Raw Truth s videos??I gotta say, seeing my wife put herself under submission to what God calls good, and what I have asked of her is a beautiful thing.
I have heard and seen it asked, "what does it mean to be submissive?" and, "Is there a book for this?"
The answer is simply this. Ask your husband what he wants. Act like he is a general in the army, or the president of the USA, or the King of a kingdom. And ask him what he wants, how he wants it, and when he wants it. And then do it with a cheerful countenance.
Submissive means to put yourself under, to set aside your wishes and pick up another's. You submit to your boss at work by doing the work the boss wants, when and how the boss says. You don't do it with a bad attitude or talking back. The boss says get the job done and you say "Yes Boss!" It means to sit down and write out all the things that you know would please your man. How does he want you to dress? Are you doing that? Could you be doing that? What does HE like to eat? Are you feeding him that? Are you pursuing one of your goals and that's preventing you from meeting one of his goals?
I have children, and the expectation is that they obey me rather than do something they think is good. If they are instructed to go feed the goats, but they see some weeds need pulled, they don't stop to pull weeds, they feed the goats, check with me for the next thing, and if there is nothing, then they go pull those weeds. If your man has a priority or something that needs done, put his needs first and yours second. I absolutely GUARANTEE that if you do this, you will turn his whole attitude into mush about you and towards you. You will secure his heart and love in a way you never knew possible. You will captivate his heart and soul.
I put this under testimonies because I'm praising my Lord for a wife who is fully submitted to me, and through that submission, she is also under God's authority. She is seeking my will in everything. If I say we need to tighten up spending, there is no question, she simply says "Yes sir", or "ok!". She cooks what I want to eat, when I'm gone for work, she cooks the things she and the kids like to eat that I don't like. I've never asked that of her, but her heart is to do my will, and to please me. She's looking for ways to bless and please me. My energy levels are high, my motivation is extreme, my desire towards her is exceptional. I'm getting more done now than ever before. I can't imagine doing this life without her, and it's all because of the amazing woman she has blossomed into.
Your man has a mission in life. You are his weapon of warfare, the tool he needs to accomplish the task. You are his form fitted help. If you notice a corner is a bit too sharp and pokey, get some sand paper out and smooth that bit off so that it fits what he needs. Focus on how to form to YOUR man's needs. Don't get a book written by some woman, or some man describing what he wants in a woman. He's not your man. Go to your man. I promise if you ask, he will probably have some suggestions. If he doesn't then I bet if you thought about it hard enough you could come up with one thing a week to do better or differently that you know would please him.
If you reflect on this and realize you have not been this kind of woman. Or your man is cold towards you, or grouchy all the time. You might want to consider going to him and apologizing for not being this way. Ask him those questions and then straight away start doing them. If you need to, write down a list of things to remember to do daily. If he likes lipstick *gross* then put the nasty stuff on yo lips. If he would be more comfortable with you wearing a headcovering. Pull up a browser or catalogue and ask him what kind, pick it out and ask if that's too much to spend. If he says buy it, put that sucker on the moment you get it and show it off with a big smile. You might hate the idea, and he might decide after a week that he was wrong and it's dumb. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that you learned there was something he likes or wants and you immediately conformed to his goal. You could say you got in line behind him and started walking where he was leading. You might even call it being submitted to his headship. Make it a habit to ask him every month, what could you be doing differently or better. Don't fear this kind of obedience or submission. Your actions will win him like nothing else could. He will desire to hold you back from doing too much. He will want to protect and shelter you. My wife says I give her "sweet eyes" every time she looks at me.
This level of trust and seeking my good is such a blessing that it fuels me to do more and more for her. I look for ways to bless her and to provide for her. Her attitude towards me, her submission, her seeking to please me, elevates her in my mind and in my heart to the most treasured thing in the world. I would give all that I have to keep her. I would sacrifice everything to protect and provide for her.
If you ladies want to know what submission looks like, ask her. I'm serious... I'm blown away by her attitude and obedience. There are many wonderful women on this forum but I think I have the best.
(Sorry ladies, I'm sure you're great too)
(Not sorry fellers)
I watched a couple of them at some point. Not recently, why? Similarities?
Similarities, we parse scripture quite differently on several accounts. So I wouldn't say we are twins when it comes to theology or doctrine.
I agree that women can suffer if they're too choosy. Lots of them do suffer because they're too choosy. And IMHO the abortion ruling is going to make more women choosier than they were before...but that makes good Christian men more appealing than boy toys.
You're right that women don't get to tell men to jump through hoops. But we are free to set impossible standards if we wish and then we have to accept the consequences when no man alive can satisfy those impossible standards. Like I say to some women who have impossible requirements for men, "I hope you like cats."
In my own way my requirements for a man were very specific and perhaps impossible for most men:
1. Had to accept me as the damaged person I was.
2. Could accept me even though I wasn't a virgin.
3. Had to be free of any addictions.
4. Couldn't have money problems because money problems are often a symptom of addiction problems.
5. Had to want children. Already having children to me was a big plus.
6. Had to have at least one other woman living with him as his wife.
Around BF this is not an impossible list but for the majority of the world it is. I ended up blessed and never needed to go get a cat.
I am biased here because I see in you a great man and not just a good man. You're having problems with women who want boy toys and actual men are alien creatures in their eyes. Those women are not worth your time. It just occurred to me to ask you to write a list of your requirements like what I wrote. What do you want from a woman? Maybe just writing it down would help you sort the wheat from the chaff?
I'd said that poly men have to be better than average men because most women have to overcome a lot of social stigmas in order to be poly. And a better than average man is a very good reason to accept losing all of your anti-poly friends, alienating your anti-poly family, and maybe even losing a job or career. If you are blessed to find someone who grew up in the life then this isn't so big a deal because her expectations will match yours.
Warning: sound-bite-free zone ahead . . .
Now, you know me, Megan, and many others here also know my situation, but for full-disclosure's sake, I will not deny that a significant chunk of why I'm honing in on all this is related to the posture my wife Kristin takes regarding polygyny. I will with all genuineness assert that what I'm speaking about is a generalized phenomenon among women, but it's certainly present in my marriage. Yesterday, Kristin and I returned home from a 17-day driving trip to visit certain folks, including my mother with Alzheimer's, Biblical Families people, and old family friends -- topped off with 2 days in Key West. The vacation was generally quite wonderful, but Kristin would readily acknowledge that she has an inescapable habit of first dreading the end of vacation days in advance then destroying it near the end, and this was no exception. This time, the focal point for her was the attention I pay to men's issues and interpersonal relationships, with my desire to pursue biblical polygamy as the lightning rod. Several days ago I mentioned in her presence that I had stayed up late the previous night composing some fiery responses (mostly to things you'd written in this thread). Kristin asked me Saturday afternoon while driving through Louisiana to discuss all that with her, assuring me that she sincerely wanted to know and understand, and I don't pass up an opportunity to discuss such things no matter how it might end up. In the end, the typical litany of accusations were being flung at me, which I'm accustomed to, but this time I partially lost my temper for several minutes in the third phase of the conversation yesterday afternoon. My frustration came from her repeatedly asserting that she really wants to know what I want from her as a helpmeet as I repeatedly attempted to tell her as she consistently interrupted me either to tell me I wasn't answering her question properly or to tell me she would no way do one thing or another, so I just told her to shut up and listen, at which point I explained that it's obvious to me that what she wants is to have the feminist list of privileges but be looked at as a pious woman of God -- and that her expectation is that I give her a short list of bullet points (that was actually her spoken request) that include simple-to-implement instructions on how to make very minor and non-difficult adjustments in her approach to me that would, of course, not only create Nirvana in our marriage but inspire me to forever stop expecting her to give up the habit she bitterly clings to of being a meddling, bossy, masculine harpy who feels justified to treat her husband (and anyone else she happens to find distasteful) with derision and disrespect.
This, of course, led to tears and expression of heartbreak over how much I must not love her. I reminded her that not only do I love her and am permanently devoted to her and our marriage, but that if she's going to trot out that fake-attacked racket around me anymore, she better accompany it with some solid evidence. Briefly, she did her darnedest to get away with entirely misrepresenting me. I took the time to clarify each assertion, and she acknowledged, one by one, that Truth lay on the side of my characterizations and that hers were more representative of her fears or attempts on her part to catch me off-guard.
And then she calmed down a good bit and reasserted that she really wanted to know what I wanted her to demonstrate in order to be a helpmeet. The ensuing discussion was also problematic, fraught with regular unnecessary interruptions designed to derail or invalidate me, but we did eventually get through it to a significant extent, and, for those who are still reading, the point of why I'm sharing all this is to partly grant your request, Megan (who, in case anyone doesn't know it, I consider one of my best friends here), that I formulate a list of what I want in another wife. (I know very well what I want and don't want, but some of it I choose to be less public about.)
In response to Kristin's request that I define helpmeet, I told her that I take it literally as being someone devoted to helping me. Primarily, I want any woman of mine to be dedicated to helping me implement my vision. How do I want her to do that? By making implementing my vision easier. Kristin and I can't do child rearing all over again, but I didn't have to emphasize that her approach to that shared responsibility was generally in opposition to what I had wanted, which didn't help me or make it easier. What is my vision? I explained that it's been clear to me since age 12 that being a husband and father was central to my vision, but I emphasized that I don't think that my husband OR father roles are over just because our youngest child has now left the nest or because our children may temporarily believe they want nothing from me (which isn't even the case), because one can benefit from the counsel of a father throughout one's life. I explained that some of the rest of my vision has evolved over the 35 years she's known me but that, while currently a great deal of my focus is on standing shoulder-to-shoulder with other men endeavoring to fully implement patriarchal leadership, it's entirely clear to me that God's purpose for me has been consistent since I was a boy and has always involved using intuition to assist others, but that it doesn't stop there: it's also to seek truth, implement it in my life and the lives of my family members, and be willing to take slings and arrows in the process. Thus, among other things I see my purpose as being the active, public articulation of truths and information not yet generally comprehended, which includes subjects from bureaucratic overreach to polygamy to psychedelics to sexuality.
I'm focusing on purpose here, because I knew the conversation was inevitably going to get heated between Kristin and me when she mentioned what I would label just another bullsh** superficial self-help book for women centering around reaching full personal integration by high-fiving oneself in the mirror every morning, asserting that the first chapter was inspiring her to think about her purpose, which she has never been able to determine, and asking me what I thought her purpose might be. I asked three different ways whether she was really asking me for my opinion (which she later entirely denied), but she was in the beginning adamant about it even though I assured her she wouldn't want to know what I thought. Her last assertion before things went south was that she knew I was pretty clear about my purpose even if she didn't understand it and that it had something to do with vision but that she not only didn't know hers, she was hopeful that coming up with one would alleviate the boredom she fears now that our children are grown . . . and wanted to know what I thought.
I started by asserting that her purpose was already clear to me, that because I choose to hold Scripture in a primary regard it was inescapable, and that her purpose is to be a wife and mother. The mother part is over, she responded. "No, it's not, and even if it is, you still have plenty of purpose as a wife." When she re-mentioned boredom, I very purposefully replied that entertaining oneself is a separate concern from knowing one's purpose. This necessitated some vigorous debate unnecessarily tinged with her attempts to derail the discussion at hand with accusations that I was putting her down for needing to alleviate boredom, but I assured her that I probably fear boredom more than she does but just organize my life to prevent it rather than organizing my life to complain about it. Into that breach I asserted that I really don't have any opinion that will satisfy her stated purpose-finding goal, because it's my point of view that, as my woman, my purpose becomes her purpose, in that, as part of being a helpmeet, it's her purpose to help me fulfill the agendas of my purpose and vision (acknowledging that I'm responsible for confusing her in the beginning because I started out our marriage hell-bent on being egalitarian).
"But I don't like your purpose or vision; I'm sure part of your vision is to have another wife, I'm never going to do anything to help you have another wife, and I want my own purpose." Fine, said I, so, other than primarily being a wife and mother, and secondarily being a breadwinner based on the arrangement you wanted once you were pregnant with [our first child], and given that you say you honor The Bible and that The Bible is clear about your primary purpose being a helpmeet and mother, what has stopped you from knowing what your purpose is -- and, to avoid wasting time, don't bother taking us down a rabbit hole about how I've somehow stopped you from discovering it?
Skipping past unpleasantness y'all would very likely appreciate avoiding (more yelling; more tears), eventually Kristin asked me to tell her exactly what she could do to be my helpmeet (don't worry; I know this seems redundant -- because it was). Negotiating past numerous attempts to again require me to limit it to bullet points, I started with this: more than anything else, my love, I want you to be respectfully cooperative, which by necessity will include you being consistently nice and kind toward me, in both your speech and your actions.
"Now you're trying to change who I am at my core."
No, I replied; I don't for a moment believe you are mean at your core; it's just a longstanding constellation of bad habits, and you're a highly-intelligent, dynamic, resourceful woman with the ability to do anything you put your mind to.
"So let's just say for the fun of it that I could be as nice to you as you want me to be and that I'd be respectfully cooperative -- which I'll never do, because I'm never going to respect you and don't even like you -- what would the next step be toward being the helpmeet you want me to be?"
"I would then also like for you to refrain from any attempt to prevent me from implementing my vision. That's my first request; you don't have to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with me, but you can at least avoid working at cross-purposes." This required some significant discussion, because Kristin started by seemingly-sincerely believing that she wasn't at all in the habit of preventing me from doinganything I want to do, much less vision-related stuff. But I explained that probably the first manifestation of implementing such a change would be to stop speaking or acting as if my discussions with other men are an affront on her sensibilities.
Eventually, Kristin asserted that she could probably do all that and that she would try (you know what I think about 'trying'), but then she wanted an ironclad guarantee that, if she were to be nice to me and not give me grief for organizing my time and interactions according to my own determinations, I would agree that she didn't have to do anything else beyond that. In other words, let's play Let's Pretend This Is Respectful Cooperation.
So I reminded her that she had earlier mentioned some things she was always going to resist and that chief among them was polygyny, asserting that having a plural family is definitely part of my vision, that it has been since well before we met 36 years ago, that she was well aware of that at the time, and that it's not going to stop being the case -- reminding her as well that, early in our marriage, she left me so many times I got tired of it and wouldn't take her back, at which point she herself orchestrated getting me back by conspiring with a former lover of mine to join us in a newly-configured permanent plural marriage. First we discussed how she thinks that apologizing for having subsequently insisted on getting rid of Claire put the matter to rest -- which I countered with insistently asserting that apologies are only the beginning of being redeemed from something like that -- and that, given Claire's now long-term and very reasonable unwillingness to rejoin us, I will always consider it Kristin's responsibility to not only refrain from sabotage of plural marriage but to actively help me find her a sister wife. Eventually, I got across the concept of the inadequacy of apologies, but that didn't make a substantive difference: her response was the showstopper: "Well, that's never going to happen, because I'm only going to prevent you from having another wife; that's never going to change, so I guess there's no point in trying to be your helpmeet."
With Kristin, such episodes are very much a matter of one step back, followed later by two steps forward, but in regard to some of the issues we've been bandying about in this part of this thread, most of the headway has come about in regard to letting me take the lead. In other words, some movement in regard to her level of nasty disrespect (a habit she picked up from her father), but none to speak of when it comes to avoiding outright sabotage of plural marriage. I know that this colors the vehemence with which I approach some of these discussions, and I wish it were just confined to my relationship with Kristin, but unfortunately I see it almost everywhere around me. I'm confident it's not universal, and I'm always heartened but not shocked to read testimonials like @NickF's about his Ruby-Exceeder, but, while I know I have great room to improve on my skills as a man, and while I continue to believe that (as a man) I'm 100% responsible for everything that happens in my family, I'm also just as confident that the failure for either singular or plural marriages to occur in much more significant numbers is predominantly not in men's court: no amount of buffing up of our leadership skills is going to transform the vast majority of women from embracing entitlement feminism or sabotaging the leadership of their husbands. We can individually make a dent with individual women, but what I observe over and over is that the only thing that is really going to make a difference is for women to individually, one at a time, recognize the folly of their ways and embrace a new approach to life. And, furthermore, one of the biggest things we men are guilty of in this regard is failure to point out to women the nature of their misbehavior.
@NickF, I do apologize for the significant extent to which I've hijacked your thread. Your wife deserves mountains of credit for recognizing her purpose and for further recognizing that what both you and she need from her is loving, joyful, respectful cooperation. She also deserves great credit for making herself known here at Biblical Families even in advance of meeting people at a gathering. I do love my wife, but there's no other way to say this: while she's attended numerous gatherings, Kristin is too much of a coward to put herself out there in the form of writing out her thoughts for consideration in these Forums. I do pray that, after some rumination, she will re-engage in the discussion she abandoned yesterday, and when/if she does, the next thing on my list of desired helpmeet behaviors will be just that: taking the leap to engage beyond the superficial with Biblical Families.
As penance for veering away from celebrating Uber-Rubiehood, I have thus started another thread at: https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/...ininity-chicken-or-the-masculinity-egg.16110/
I do hear you, Megan, but I continue to object, and here's why: (a) maybe not a majority, but certainly a very significant minority of leftover women (divorcees and widows) are not possessed of significant friend fellowship, significant family networks or fulfilling jobs or careers; this is compounded by the fact that right now no amount of becoming Mr Wonderful is going to convince those with anything significant to lose to accept having to share -- some of the widows aren't characterized by this, but almost every divorcee or long-term marriage hold-out has become far too stingy and far too entitled to 'settle' for anything but the best -- in any case, I don't see male self-improvement as a worthwhile endeavor if one is doing it for the purpose of gaining a second wife; and (b) the more of a strong leader and good or great man a man becomes, the more entitled that man's first wife becomes as far as solitarily possessing that greatness (almost as if he's a possession she has earned), which only leads the first wife to become increasing stingy and decreasingly likely to refrain from sabotaging her husband's pursuit of plural marriage. Yes, the anti-poly bias is a significant factor, but in my opinion and observation the anti-poly bias effect on women's choices is dwarfed by both their generalized delusions about what they deserve and their tendency when married to feel free to disregard and disrespect their husbands (which potential wives are also adept at observing).
Now, you know me, Megan, and many others here also know my situation, but for full-disclosure's sake, I will not deny that a significant chunk of why I'm honing in on all this is related to the posture my wife Kristin takes regarding polygyny. I will with all genuineness assert that what I'm speaking about is a generalized phenomenon among women, but it's certainly present in my marriage. Yesterday, Kristin and I returned home from a 17-day driving trip to visit certain folks, including my mother with Alzheimer's, Biblical Families people, and old family friends -- topped off with 2 days in Key West. The vacation was generally quite wonderful, but Kristin would readily acknowledge that she has an inescapable habit of first dreading the end of vacation days in advance then destroying it near the end, and this was no exception. This time, the focal point for her was the attention I pay to men's issues and interpersonal relationships, with my desire to pursue biblical polygamy as the lightning rod. Several days ago I mentioned in her presence that I had stayed up late the previous night composing some fiery responses (mostly to things you'd written in this thread). Kristin asked me Saturday afternoon while driving through Louisiana to discuss all that with her, assuring me that she sincerely wanted to know and understand, and I don't pass up an opportunity to discuss such things no matter how it might end up. In the end, the typical litany of accusations were being flung at me, which I'm accustomed to, but this time I partially lost my temper for several minutes in the third phase of the conversation yesterday afternoon. My frustration came from her repeatedly asserting that she really wants to know what I want from her as a helpmeet as I repeatedly attempted to tell her as she consistently interrupted me either to tell me I wasn't answering her question properly or to tell me she would no way do one thing or another, so I just told her to shut up and listen, at which point I explained that it's obvious to me that what she wants is to have the feminist list of privileges but be looked at as a pious woman of God -- and that her expectation is that I give her a short list of bullet points (that was actually her spoken request) that include simple-to-implement instructions on how to make very minor and non-difficult adjustments in her approach to me that would, of course, not only create Nirvana in our marriage but inspire me to forever stop expecting her to give up the habit she bitterly clings to of being a meddling, bossy, masculine harpy who feels justified to treat her husband (and anyone else she happens to find distasteful) with derision and disrespect.
This, of course, led to tears and expression of heartbreak over how much I must not love her. I reminded her that not only do I love her and am permanently devoted to her and our marriage, but that if she's going to trot out that fake-attacked racket around me anymore, she better accompany it with some solid evidence. Briefly, she did her darnedest to get away with entirely misrepresenting me. I took the time to clarify each assertion, and she acknowledged, one by one, that Truth lay on the side of my characterizations and that hers were more representative of her fears or attempts on her part to catch me off-guard.
And then she calmed down a good bit and reasserted that she really wanted to know what I wanted her to demonstrate in order to be a helpmeet. The ensuing discussion was also problematic, fraught with regular unnecessary interruptions designed to derail or invalidate me, but we did eventually get through it to a significant extent, and, for those who are still reading, the point of why I'm sharing all this is to partly grant your request, Megan (who, in case anyone doesn't know it, I consider one of my best friends here), that I formulate a list of what I want in another wife. (I know very well what I want and don't want, but some of it I choose to be less public about.)
In response to Kristin's request that I define helpmeet, I told her that I take it literally as being someone devoted to helping me. Primarily, I want any woman of mine to be dedicated to helping me implement my vision. How do I want her to do that? By making implementing my vision easier. Kristin and I can't do child rearing all over again, but I didn't have to emphasize that her approach to that shared responsibility was generally in opposition to what I had wanted, which didn't help me or make it easier. What is my vision? I explained that it's been clear to me since age 12 that being a husband and father was central to my vision, but I emphasized that I don't think that my husband OR father roles are over just because our youngest child has now left the nest or because our children may temporarily believe they want nothing from me (which isn't even the case), because one can benefit from the counsel of a father throughout one's life. I explained that some of the rest of my vision has evolved over the 35 years she's known me but that, while currently a great deal of my focus is on standing shoulder-to-shoulder with other men endeavoring to fully implement patriarchal leadership, it's entirely clear to me that God's purpose for me has been consistent since I was a boy and has always involved using intuition to assist others, but that it doesn't stop there: it's also to seek truth, implement it in my life and the lives of my family members, and be willing to take slings and arrows in the process. Thus, among other things I see my purpose as being the active, public articulation of truths and information not yet generally comprehended, which includes subjects from bureaucratic overreach to polygamy to psychedelics to sexuality.
I'm focusing on purpose here, because I knew the conversation was inevitably going to get heated between Kristin and me when she mentioned what I would label just another bullsh** superficial self-help book for women centering around reaching full personal integration by high-fiving oneself in the mirror every morning, asserting that the first chapter was inspiring her to think about her purpose, which she has never been able to determine, and asking me what I thought her purpose might be. I asked three different ways whether she was really asking me for my opinion (which she later entirely denied), but she was in the beginning adamant about it even though I assured her she wouldn't want to know what I thought. Her last assertion before things went south was that she knew I was pretty clear about my purpose even if she didn't understand it and that it had something to do with vision but that she not only didn't know hers, she was hopeful that coming up with one would alleviate the boredom she fears now that our children are grown . . . and wanted to know what I thought.
I started by asserting that her purpose was already clear to me, that because I choose to hold Scripture in a primary regard it was inescapable, and that her purpose is to be a wife and mother. The mother part is over, she responded. "No, it's not, and even if it is, you still have plenty of purpose as a wife." When she re-mentioned boredom, I very purposefully replied that entertaining oneself is a separate concern from knowing one's purpose. This necessitated some vigorous debate unnecessarily tinged with her attempts to derail the discussion at hand with accusations that I was putting her down for needing to alleviate boredom, but I assured her that I probably fear boredom more than she does but just organize my life to prevent it rather than organizing my life to complain about it. Into that breach I asserted that I really don't have any opinion that will satisfy her stated purpose-finding goal, because it's my point of view that, as my woman, my purpose becomes her purpose, in that, as part of being a helpmeet, it's her purpose to help me fulfill the agendas of my purpose and vision (acknowledging that I'm responsible for confusing her in the beginning because I started out our marriage hell-bent on being egalitarian).
"But I don't like your purpose or vision; I'm sure part of your vision is to have another wife, I'm never going to do anything to help you have another wife, and I want my own purpose." Fine, said I, so, other than primarily being a wife and mother, and secondarily being a breadwinner based on the arrangement you wanted once you were pregnant with [our first child], and given that you say you honor The Bible and that The Bible is clear about your primary purpose being a helpmeet and mother, what has stopped you from knowing what your purpose is -- and, to avoid wasting time, don't bother taking us down a rabbit hole about how I've somehow stopped you from discovering it?
Skipping past unpleasantness y'all would very likely appreciate avoiding (more yelling; more tears), eventually Kristin asked me to tell her exactly what she could do to be my helpmeet (don't worry; I know this seems redundant -- because it was). Negotiating past numerous attempts to again require me to limit it to bullet points, I started with this: more than anything else, my love, I want you to be respectfully cooperative, which by necessity will include you being consistently nice and kind toward me, in both your speech and your actions.
"Now you're trying to change who I am at my core."
No, I replied; I don't for a moment believe you are mean at your core; it's just a longstanding constellation of bad habits, and you're a highly-intelligent, dynamic, resourceful woman with the ability to do anything you put your mind to.
"So let's just say for the fun of it that I could be as nice to you as you want me to be and that I'd be respectfully cooperative -- which I'll never do, because I'm never going to respect you and don't even like you -- what would the next step be toward being the helpmeet you want me to be?"
"I would then also like for you to refrain from any attempt to prevent me from implementing my vision. That's my first request; you don't have to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with me, but you can at least avoid working at cross-purposes." This required some significant discussion, because Kristin started by seemingly-sincerely believing that she wasn't at all in the habit of preventing me from doing
Eventually, Kristin asserted that she could probably do all that and that she would try (you know what I think about 'trying'), but then she wanted an ironclad guarantee that, if she were to be nice to me and not give me grief for organizing my time and interactions according to my own determinations, I would agree that she didn't have to do anything else beyond that. In other words, let's play Let's Pretend This Is Respectful Cooperation.
So I reminded her that she had earlier mentioned some things she was always going to resist and that chief among them was polygyny, asserting that having a plural family is definitely part of my vision, that it has been since well before we met 36 years ago, that she was well aware of that at the time, and that it's not going to stop being the case -- reminding her as well that, early in our marriage, she left me so many times I got tired of it and wouldn't take her back, at which point she herself orchestrated getting me back by conspiring with a former lover of mine to join us in a newly-configured permanent plural marriage. First we discussed how she thinks that apologizing for having subsequently insisted on getting rid of Claire put the matter to rest -- which I countered with insistently asserting that apologies are only the beginning of being redeemed from something like that -- and that, given Claire's now long-term and very reasonable unwillingness to rejoin us, I will always consider it Kristin's responsibility to not only refrain from sabotage of plural marriage but to actively help me find her a sister wife. Eventually, I got across the concept of the inadequacy of apologies, but that didn't make a substantive difference: her response was the showstopper: "Well, that's never going to happen, because I'm only going to prevent you from having another wife; that's never going to change, so I guess there's no point in trying to be your helpmeet."
With Kristin, such episodes are very much a matter of one step back, followed later by two steps forward, but in regard to some of the issues we've been bandying about in this part of this thread, most of the headway has come about in regard to letting me take the lead. In other words, some movement in regard to her level of nasty disrespect (a habit she picked up from her father), but none to speak of when it comes to avoiding outright sabotage of plural marriage. I know that this colors the vehemence with which I approach some of these discussions, and I wish it were just confined to my relationship with Kristin, but unfortunately I see it almost everywhere around me. I'm confident it's not universal, and I'm always heartened but not shocked to read testimonials like @NickF's about his Ruby-Exceeder, but, while I know I have great room to improve on my skills as a man, and while I continue to believe that (as a man) I'm 100% responsible for everything that happens in my family, I'm also just as confident that the failure for either singular or plural marriages to occur in much more significant numbers is predominantly not in men's court: no amount of buffing up of our leadership skills is going to transform the vast majority of women from embracing entitlement feminism or sabotaging the leadership of their husbands. We can individually make a dent with individual women, but what I observe over and over is that the only thing that is really going to make a difference is for women to individually, one at a time, recognize the folly of their ways and embrace a new approach to life. And, furthermore, one of the biggest things we men are guilty of in this regard is failure to point out to women the nature of their misbehavior.
@NickF, I do apologize for the significant extent to which I've hijacked your thread. Your wife deserves mountains of credit for recognizing her purpose and for further recognizing that what both you and she need from her is loving, joyful, respectful cooperation. She also deserves great credit for making herself known here at Biblical Families even in advance of meeting people at a gathering. I do love my wife, but there's no other way to say this: while she's attended numerous gatherings, Kristin is too much of a coward to put herself out there in the form of writing out her thoughts for consideration in these Forums. I do pray that, after some rumination, she will re-engage in the discussion she abandoned yesterday, and when/if she does, the next thing on my list of desired helpmeet behaviors will be just that: taking the leap to engage beyond the superficial with Biblical Families.
As penance for veering away from celebrating Uber-Rubiehood, I have thus started another thread at: https://biblicalfamilies.org/forum/...ininity-chicken-or-the-masculinity-egg.16110/
First of all, I’m sorry for causing you any pain or grief by bragging on my wife. My intent was never to cause anybody pain. And I’ll be more careful to refrain from undue praise in the future. While you are quite verbose, I love you dearly despite never having met you as of yet.
My heart breaks for you and I’m praying for fulfillment or if nothing else, peace for you.
As penance for my inadvertent pain causing, I’ll embarrass myself with sharing a song that makes me weep at least once a year when I’m overwhelmed with life and pain. I hope it brings a brief moment of solace to you. And if it doesn’t, I hope you get a chuckle at my sappyness.
Love you brother and I truly pray God grants you peace, fulfillment and strength.
Oh, my, Nick: nothing could be further from the truth than that you caused me any pain or grief. Please know that.
The soul wrestling I'm doing with my wife isn't even causing me significant pain or grief. In fact, I'm embarrassed that I even lost my temper with her for several minutes yesterday afternoon. You and I will eventually talk in person, and you'll learn that (a) my tendency toward self-disclosure is not indicative of breakdown on my part; in fact, if anything, I tend to gravitate toward addressing conflict rather than avoiding it; (b) it's probably the case that I give myself free rein to share what I experience because I want others to know they're not alone; and (c) I have gone through some rough stuff in my family in the past couple years but consider myself blessed by all of it. I frequently assert with all sincerity that 2021 was the best year of my life after 1972, because the adversity of something that occurred in my family which I now refer to as The Coup inspired me to take a hard turn toward patriarchal leadership from my previous go-with-the-flow more gradual approach to being a man (1972 formerly had top honors because I fell out of a hearse onto a Texas highway at 55mph). I needed a wake-up call and received it with a vengeance last spring, but I truly am grateful for it, because, with assistance from some key people here and inspiration from others in my life as well as from Kevin Samuels videos, I finally seized control of my family. Having approached that endeavor far too cavalierly for over 3 decades, I find myself with some monumental challenges from time to time, but I'm truly thankful for the current nature of my problems!
Please continue bragging on your wife. I've done mountains of that about Kristin over the years, and I predict I'll return to that once again being the default setting. In the meantime, she and I are going to have some really rough sledding, but, when it comes down to it, prior to The Coup I was only pretending it wasn't such a rocky ride.
Thank you, though, for your concern. I'm honored.