Meat Can women pray or prophesy in the Assembly?

[The Revolting Man]

Over in the headcovering thread @James Pease and I are having a little bit of a discussion on what I Corinthians 11 has to say about the ever-controversial topic of headcovering. Somewhat tangentially related to the discussion is a claim he made that verses 4-7 only apply in the assembly. Here are the verses:

4Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 6For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. 7For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

So the passage is explicit, it's dealing with men and women using words. James' contention is that this applies in the assembly. So that would require women to be speaking in the assembly. Alright. Let's examine that. Everyone knows where I'm going with this. I'm going straight to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, so the same letter that we're dealing with in the other thread. That verse says, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also sayeth the Law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Alrighty then, to my simple mind that seems pretty cut and dry. Women shouldn't speak in the church (assembly) under any circumstances. It even says that it's "a shame", similar language to what chapter 11 says occurs if they pray or prophesy uncovered. Now I realize some of you require that everything be confirmed by two witnesses so let's do that now.

1 Timothy 2:11-12, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." So this isn't a one-off idea. Paul is quite explicit that women shouldn't be speaking in the assembly.

Now obviously I'm wanting to hash this out again (we've done it before) in order to take the conclusions back to that other conversation. I'm doing it in another thread in order to not derail that one and so lose the linear progression of the argument.

So here is the challenge. Given these two passages is there anyway a woman could pray or prophesy in the assembly whether she be covered or not? I assert that there absolutely is not.

Please note that the thread is labeled "Meat". For those who don't know, that means that this conversation is allowed to be quite confrontational. This is a crucible where bad ideas go to be burned away. You've been warned. Fight!

 

[James Pease]

Lets start out with the 1st Timothy passage in a little context.

8¶I wish, therefore, that men pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning;

9in like manner also the women, in becoming apparel, with modesty and sobriety to adorn themselves, not in braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or garments of great price,

10but -- which becometh women professing godly piety -- through good works.

11Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,

12and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

13for Adam was first formed, then Eve,

14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,

15and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

I see this passage to have no teaching directly to assembling. The men in verse 8 are told to be praying and other things in EVERY place. The women are to dress modestly, not adorn themselves in verse 9 and in verse 10 told to have godly works. In this a teaching to conduct in the assembly? Should women do these things outside the assembly or only inside?

Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection. She is not to teach or rule a husband (man). For Adam was nit deceived but Eve.

I see this as a woman should not be teaching but should be learning from a man or husband. The
same word for quietness or silence is used here.

2nd Thessalonians 3
12and such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness working, their own bread they may eat;

Does this mean that men while working cant speak? No, of course not. The word derives from quiet or tranquil. The men are to be peaceable.


I do not see a way to apply this to the assembly. There is no given application to the assembly, it reads as if it's daily conduct. The men do this and the women do that.

The woman learns from the man, not the other way around. We must use the context of the passage otherwise older women could never teach the younger women or the children. The context is that she should not exercise authority over a man. Does this teaching flow into the assembly? Absolutely. A woman should be subject to her man in the assembly as well. Woman should be modestly adorned in daily life and in the assembly. A man should pray every place, including the assembly. A woman should have Godly works, in and out of the assembly.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Lets start out with the 1st Timothy passage in a little context.

8¶I wish, therefore, that men pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning;

9in like manner also the women, in becoming apparel, with modesty and sobriety to adorn themselves, not in braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or garments of great price,

10but -- which becometh women professing godly piety -- through good works.

11Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,

12and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

13for Adam was first formed, then Eve,

14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,

15and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

I see this passage to have no teaching directly to assembling. The men in verse 8 are told to be praying and other things in EVERY place. The women are to dress modestly, not adorn themselves in verse 9 and in verse 10 told to have godly works. In this a teaching to conduct in the assembly? Should women do these things outside the assembly or only inside?

Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection. She is not to teach or rule a husband (man). For Adam was nit deceived but Eve.

I see this as a woman should not be teaching but should be learning from a man or husband. The
same word for quietness or silence is used here.

2nd Thessalonians 3
12and such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness working, their own bread they may eat;

Does this mean that men while working cant speak? No, of course not. The word derives from quiet or tranquil. The men are to be peaceable.


I do not see a way to apply this to the assembly. There is no given application to the assembly, it reads as if it's daily conduct. The men do this and the women do that.

The woman learns from the man, not the other way around. We must use the context of the passage otherwise older women could never teach the younger women or the children. The context is that she should not exercise authority over a man. Does this teaching flow into the assembly? Absolutely. A woman should be subject to her man in the assembly as well. Woman should be modestly adorned in daily life and in the assembly. A man should pray every place, including the assembly. A woman should have Godly works, in and out of the assembly.

Well that was a lovingly worded wad of nothing. You didn’t answer the question or if you did it was so carefully couched and qualified as to be incomprehensible to my simple little mind.

The question is, can women pray or prophesy in the assembly?

You spent a lot of time on Timothy and made one correct observation, the Timothy passage has general application that would also affect the assembly.

That’s why I led with 1 Corinthians 14, which you ignored. Why did you skip over the main point to attack the supporting one? The main says explicitly women are to keep silent in the assembly. Deal with this first.

otherwise older women could never teach the younger women or the children. The

Bullshit. The passage forbids women from teaching men, not women or children. You’re not even reading it.

 

[Shiloh.F]

Seems simple to me, women can obviously pray and be given the gift of prophecy (Joel 2:28, Acts 21:9, Deborah in Jud 4:4.) However they are not to teach or hold authority over men in the assembly/church. (1Tim 2:11-12) Any woman praying or prophesying in the assembly/church must do so in submission to and under the authority of the male leadership.

This is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 11:2-16. He seems to be saying that it is appropriate for women to wear a physical covering in this situation to show or acknowledge their spiritual coverings and show they are not out of order while offering prayers and exercising their gift of prophecy for the edification of the assembly/church.

So the answer to the question is yes, women can pray and prophesy in the assembly/church as part of the body of Christ, but in an orderly fashion by the permission of the male leadership.

(See 1 Cor 14 for more of prophesying in the assembly/church)

 

[The Revolting Man]

See 1 Cor 14 for more of prophesying in the assembly/church)

Did you read that chapter? Let me quote it again for you.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also sayeth the Law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

So what about “let them keep silence” and “it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church” means that they can speak in the church IF something or another? There’s no wiggle vroom in that statement.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Seems simple to me, women can obviously pray and be given the gift of prophecy (Joel 2:28, Acts 21:9, Deborah in Jud 4:4.) However they are not to teach or hold authority over men in the assembly/church. (1Tim 2:11-12) Any woman praying or prophesying in the assembly/church must do so in submission to and under the authority of the male leadership.

This is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 11:2-16. He seems to be saying that it is appropriate for women to wear a physical covering in this situation to show or acknowledge their spiritual coverings and show they are not out of order while offering prayers and exercising their gift of prophecy for the edification of the assembly/church.

So the answer to the question is yes, women can pray and prophesy in the assembly/church as part of the body of Christ, but in an orderly fashion by the permission of the male leadership.

(See 1 Cor 14 for more of prophesying in the assembly/church)

Please note that the woman being forbidden to speak has a husband.

 

[Shiloh.F]

Not looking for wiggle “vroom” , I’m comparing it to other related scriptures for context. There are some extreme statements and themes in scripture that at first glance seem contradictory. Such as,
“Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭26‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Or the fact that we serve a God who IS Love, but has also commanded the genocide of entire nations and personally wiped entire cities off the map. As it is written,

“It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭7‬:‭18‬ ‭NIV‬‬
And Jesus cautioned his disciples when they got wrapped around the literal details of communion,

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭63‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
So the needle I’m trying thread in my previous statement is this.

How should a believing woman, (married or single) who has received a vision or word from the Lord bring it to her local assembly?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Not looking for wiggle “vroom” , I’m comparing it to other related scriptures for context. There are some extreme statements and themes in scripture that at first glance seem contradictory. Such as,
“Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭26‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Or the fact that we serve a God who IS Love, but has also commanded the genocide of entire nations and personally wiped entire cities off the map. As it is written,

“It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭7‬:‭18‬ ‭NIV‬‬
And Jesus cautioned his disciples when they got wrapped around the literal details of communion,

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭63‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
So the needle I’m trying thread in my previous statement is this.

How should a believing woman, (married or single) who has received a vision or word from the Lord bring it to her local assembly?

She shouldn’t. She hasn’t received a word for her assembly. As it clearly says in 1 Corinthians 14:34-34, the verses not one person who has responded to this thread has engaged with, there is simply no way God is giving a public word through a woman . It’s forbidden and it’s shameful. Those are the words in the verses. How can you think He would contradict His Word?

 

[Shiloh.F]

Not contradict, but there must be some further context or something we are misunderstanding with 1 Cor 14:34, otherwise who are these women prophesying to/for??

“Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. Then she sent and called for Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali, and said to him, “Has not the Lord God of Israel commanded, ‘Go and deploy troops at Mount Tabor; take with you ten thousand men of the sons of Naphtali and of the sons of Zebulun; and against you I will deploy Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude at the River Kishon; and I will deliver him into your hand’?””
‭‭Judges‬ ‭4‬:‭4‬-‭7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭21‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

It says that God HAS poured out his Spirit on his maidservants to prophecy.

“And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You could argue that they should keep it to themselves like those that speak in tongues without someone to interrupt. That doesn’t make sense to me though, because every example of a prophet I can think of was someone with a specific message to be GIVEN to another someone, otherwise what’s the point?

 

[James Pease]

That’s why I led with 1 Corinthians 14, which you ignored. Why did you skip over the main point to attack the supporting one? The main says explicitly women are to keep silent in the assembly. Deal with this first.

I didn't ignore it. I was first dealing with the supporting verse. There is no rule of engagement that says this cant be done.

1st Timothy 2 is not in support of women not talking. Take a look at this passage that Paul uses the same word for quietness or silence.

2nd Thessalonians 3
12and such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness working, their own bread they may eat;

Paul commanded men to work with quietness. The same word in the greek that he uses here.

1st Timothy 2
12and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

Conclusion. If Paul was saying one cannot utter words then by the definition of the word he used the men need to work for their own bread without uttering a word.

Also notice this word is a noun and not a verb.
Greek word in both passages
G2271 - hēsychia

Bullshit. The passage forbids women from teaching men, not women or children. You’re not even reading it.

If you re read my post I am agreeing with you. I acknowledge that fact and just point out that's why context is so important. I believe Paul was not limiting a woman's ability to follow his other instruction.

 

[James Pease]

Here is the adjective of the noun used for quietness.

1st Timothy 2
2for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,

 

[The Revolting Man]

Not contradict, but there must be some further context or something we are misunderstanding with 1 Cor 14:34, otherwise who are these women prophesying to/for??

“Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. Then she sent and called for Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali, and said to him, “Has not the Lord God of Israel commanded, ‘Go and deploy troops at Mount Tabor; take with you ten thousand men of the sons of Naphtali and of the sons of Zebulun; and against you I will deploy Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude at the River Kishon; and I will deliver him into your hand’?””
‭‭Judges‬ ‭4‬:‭4‬-‭7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭21‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

It says that God HAS poured out his Spirit on his maidservants to prophecy.

“And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You could argue that they should keep it to themselves like those that speak in tongues without someone to interrupt. That doesn’t make sense to me though, because every example of a prophet I can think of was someone with a specific message to be GIVEN to another someone, otherwise what’s the point?

Not looking for wiggle “vroom” , I’m comparing it to other related scriptures for context. There are some extreme statements and themes in scripture that at first glance seem contradictory. Such as,
“Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭26‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Or the fact that we serve a God who IS Love, but has also commanded the genocide of entire nations and personally wiped entire cities off the map. As it is written,

“It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭7‬:‭18‬ ‭NIV‬‬
And Jesus cautioned his disciples when they got wrapped around the literal details of communion,

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭63‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
So the needle I’m trying thread in my previous statement is this.

How should a believing woman, (married or single) who has received a vision or word from the Lord bring it to her local assembly?

Not contradict, but there must be some further context or something we are misunderstanding with 1 Cor 14:34, otherwise

Why?

otherwise who are these women prophesying to/for??

Private, individual prophecies. Not for the assembly.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I didn't ignore it. I was first dealing with the supporting verse. There is no rule of engagement that says this cant be done.

1st Timothy 2 is not in support of women not talking. Take a look at this passage that Paul uses the same word for quietness or silence.



Paul commanded men to work with quietness. The same word in the greek that he uses here.

1st Timothy 2
12and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

Conclusion. If Paul was saying one cannot utter words then by the definition of the word he used the men need to work for their own bread without uttering a word.

Also notice this word is a noun and not a verb.
Greek word in both passages
G2271 - hēsychia


If you re read my post I am agreeing with you. I acknowledge that fact and just point out that's why context is so important. I believe Paul was not limiting a woman's ability to follow his other instruction.

Why are you focused on how silence is used in another verse when in this verse it is followed by the phrase, “it is not permitted to them to speak.” Why are you skipping this? It is in the same damn sentence. Why would you go to a different book to try and find an alternative meaning? Does silence have a range of meaning? Yes. And we’re told which one to use, the one that precludes speaking. Are these women ventriloquists?

Conclusion. If Paul was saying one cannot utter words

What does the phrase “it is not permitted to them to speak” mean to you? If doesn’t mean “one cannot utter words” then what does it mean?

Are you wanting to find the truth of the text or are you wanting to defend a certain point?

 

[James Pease]

Why are you focused on how silence is used in another verse when in this verse it is followed by the phrase, “it is not permitted to them to speak.” Why are you skipping this? It is in the same damn sentence.

You are mixing up 1st Timothy and Corinthians. There is not a verse in 1st Timothy that says it is not permitted to them to speak. I am specifically addressing 1st Timothy, your supporting text. The context of the passage as well as the language shows that it does not support women not speaking.

 

[Shiloh.F]

Why?

Private, individual prophecies. Not for the assembly.

I could be working from too loose a definition of assembly. In my mind if my wife is sitting under the tree in my front yard prophesying to visitors (with her head covered obviously ) she is exercising her gifts with in the church. This could be a different context then what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 14.
However even if I was in a formal Bible study or service, and a woman asked permission to share a word God had given her I would treat it as Paul says here

“Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭14‬:‭29‬-‭30‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Even if it is shameful my personal attitude would be f— it, if the Spirit is moving I don’t want to squander it, but that’s just me.

 

[The Revolting Man]

You are mixing up 1st Timothy and Corinthians. There is not a verse in 1st Timothy that says it is not permitted to them to speak. I am specifically addressing 1st Timothy, your supporting text. The context of the passage as well as the language shows that it does not support women not speaking.

I’m not mixing it up at all. You’re trying to not deal with the issue. There’s a passage that says “it’s not permitted to them to speak” and you’re off furiously thrashing around for any alternative. It doesn’t matter what the word could mean based off of some other unrelated passage. What does it mean in this passage? Not being permitted to speak doesn’t leave a lot of room for interpretation.

 

[James Pease]

I’m not mixing it up at all. You’re trying to not deal with the issue. There’s a passage that says “it’s not permitted to them to speak” and you’re off furiously thrashing around for any alternative. It doesn’t matter what the word could mean based off of some other unrelated passage. What does it mean in this passage? Not being permitted to speak doesn’t leave a lot of room for interpretation.

Please quote the Timothy passage that says its not permitted for them to speak.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Please quote the Timothy passage that says its not permitted for them to speak.

No, you’re not doing this. The passage is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Stop trying to be cute. Stop trying to be clever. Stop all of this damn faux high school debate club horse shit and deal with the damn issue. The Timothy passage was simply a reinforcement.

You are starting to appear as though you are wanting to manipulate scripture. We have a clear instruction. I’ll quote it for you again.

34 ¶ Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
35 and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.

In this passage we see clearly that women are not allowed to speak in the assembly, and it goes on to make clear that that applies to married women as well. Now deal with this. Stop stalling, stop qualifying, stop maneuvering and trying to be clever. Deal with the passage or admit that you don’t care what it says and you’re going to do whatever you want either way.

 

[James Pease]

1 Timothy 2:11-12, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." So this isn't a one-off idea. Paul is quite explicit that women shouldn't be speaking in the assembly.

No, you’re not doing this. The passage is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Stop trying to be cute. Stop trying to be clever. Stop all of this damn faux high school debate club horse shit and deal with the damn issue. The Timothy passage was simply a reinforcement.

The simple reinforcement passage doesn't reinforce. That's what im pointing out. The Timothy passage does not teach that a woman cant speak. This is plain and simple. If it does then quote it or accept that its not a supporting verse.

You asserted that this isn't a one off idea, but quoting 1st Timothy does not support that statement.

 

[The Revolting Man]

The simple reinforcement passage doesn't reinforce. That's what im pointing out. The Timothy passage does not teach that a woman cant speak. This is plain and simple. If it does then quote it or accept that its not a supporting verse.

You asserted that this isn't a one off idea, but quoting 1st Timothy does not support that statement.

What the 1 Timothy passage shows is that women are barred from teaching men at all, which would include the assembly. Applying 1 Timothy 2:11-12 to the assembly is the LEAST restrictive application. If women are forbidden from teaching men at all then by necessity they are forbidden from teaching men in the assembly.

So now you see that even your attempted evasion is weak and poorly thought out. If 1 Timothy 2:11-12 applies anywhere then it applies in the assembly. It is most definitely a supporting passage to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

Now man up and admit that you can’t deal with 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Or man up and deny that Paul is scripture. It’s one of the two. Either women can’t speak in the assembly or Paul isn’t scripture. This wishy washy evasion is unbecoming.