• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Exodus 22:16-17: "pre-marital sex" = the beginning of marriage?

Moses didn't say anything. And he's very detailed.
Adultery does not end a marriage and sex does not automatically start one either.
A daughter is in her fathers protection until he sees fit to relinquish it to another.

If you take a ride on my horse, it is still my horse and I will chase you down and bring it back, regardless of how willingly she rode off with you.

Theft is theft...
 
Adultery does not end a marriage and sex does not automatically start one either.
A daughter is in her fathers protection until he sees fit to relinquish it to another.

If you take a ride on my horse, it is still my horse and I will chase you down and bring it back, regardless of how willingly she rode off with you.

Theft is theft...
I’d love to finally see the Biblical case made for this claim. I keep getting told I will be but then no one ever makes good. The warble about Numbers 30, I show them they’re wrong, then they mewl about the bride price and I show them they’ve wrong and then I get called names and the poor little guy storms off in a huff.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yan
Females seem to be designed by God to be able to make the best of whatever has happened. This is why war brides simply move on. Their allegiance changes to those they are now with. This is not in any way to demean them. This, I believe, is for preservation of life. If women were like men, they could never be trusted and would have to be killed in war instead.
This is based on evolutionary psychology. Even if evolutionism is true, I don't believe that the mind stores memories of past times.

I don't feel these instincts in myself either.
 
This is based on evolutionary psychology. Even if evolutionism is true, I don't believe that the mind stores memories of past times.

I don't feel these instincts in myself either.
I said that females seem to be designed by God this way. I am not hearkening to evolutionary anything.... I am pointing to history and what has happened over and over again since recorded history began to be recorded.

I believe that God gave men and women their natures and while we may not individually feel a certain way, I believe that we are still painted with the same brush to one extent or another...
 
I’d love to finally see the Biblical case made for this claim. I keep getting told I will be but then no one ever makes good. The warble about Numbers 30, I show them they’re wrong, then they mewl about the bride price and I show them they’ve wrong and then I get called names and the poor little guy storms off in a huff.
You are too toxic to teach... You may pick it up from me by osmosis someday in the future but I am choosing not to work directly with you....
 
I said that females seem to be designed by God this way. I am not hearkening to evolutionary anything.... I am pointing to history and what has happened over and over again since recorded history began to be recorded.

I believe that God gave men and women their natures and while we may not individually feel a certain way, I believe that we are still painted with the same brush to one extent or another...
Why would God have designed women to be like this when there was no war in Eden?

The fact that most women are a certain way does not mean that God created them like that. Their corrupted minds chose to be that way.
In Genesis 6, it is said that the intentions of men's hearts were evil; God certainly did not make these people to be like that.

In Genesis 3, it is said that the serpent would live in enmity with the woman. Maybe these "instincts" are caused by Satan.
 
Last edited:
Why would God have designed women to be like this when there was no war in Eden?

The fact that most women are a certain way does not mean that God created them like that. Their corrupted minds chose to be that way.
In Genesis 6, it is said that the intentions of men's hearts were evil; God certainly did not make these people to be like that.

In Genesis 3, it is said that the serpent would live in enmity with the woman. Maybe these "instincts" are caused by Satan.
Are you still talking about the war bride being less bothered by the situation than a man would?
 
I understand all of this. I was trying to get the sex is marriage crowd to explain to me how a woman forced into sex, taking her virginity, is married to that man. So far I’ve heard no explanation.
Whether "forced into sex" or "gladly jumping into bed with" sex - the instruction is still the same. Go to the father. When, of course the father says "gimme da money", and "no, you may not have my daughter" - my suspicion is he is given exactly 30 seconds to high tail it outta town before he gets shot. And he'd better go far outta town, because "his goose is cooked" in that neighborhood. And, of course it was rape and of course he won't go to the father and of course he must suffer the death penalty, making the innocent girl a widow, making her the same as a virgin in the eyes of everyone.
 
Loosely using the term marriage because marriage as the concept we understand, I don't remember actually being defined in the bible as we use it. It mostly being inferred as contextually a single word descriptor for exclusive sexual access, authority/headship, and ownership of a woman by an individual man, one man at a time. If sex = marriage then what about slaves and concubines? As they are not "ishah", they have their own descriptor words, sex with them however is also inferred as permissible or carry exceptions to the adultery punishment, but does not instantly raise them to "wife status". The only time we ever see sex = forced marriage is in relation to a seduced/raped virgin who is unbetrothed, which even that scenario contains a void option, that is only available to the father, meaning her change of status it is not immediate nor a requirement. The text is clear there is still an order of operations, he must pay the bride price first, then she shall be his wife. From this and other things we can infer the father is the final authority before she is transfered to her husband.

But how is this scenario handled when there is no authority? If the father is dead...does it become an exception? The scenario not an unrealistic one, especially during biblical times....must they be married? Who does he pay the bride price to? Because she is no longer under her fathers authority is she like a widow or divorced woman without a head who carries their own accountability and can make their own final decisions? Or as an orphan does she fall under the passages for orphans? Covered by The Most High directly, not to be trespassed against lest his wrath be reaped.

Then there's the virgin betrothed woman who CAN commit adultery, in her sexless status. So we know betrothal is a status at least equal to "marriage" because violation carries the same punishment as a consummated marriage and we know adultery as a classification is only ever applied once a woman belongs to a man and yet the exception of a betrothed slave cannot be ignored, which I would also note it does not state her as a virgin, nor does it state either parties intent or consent. see Lev. 19:20-22.

If we drop the term marriage entirely, what are we left with to define a womans status other than the one flesh description as an act which contextually refers to consummation every where I can remember, as the last step in the series of marital events, never mentioned without the series, except in the prostitute reference of Corinthians. Still lacking a solid definition for one flesh as its first use is both equal to "go into or knew her" but also the bearing of fruit from that action so it contains a double meaning, how is it to be applied to the unbetrothed from above?

Considering the woman at the well (where many infer without it being stated as to why she is attributed to having multiple husbands, is she a prostitue, a concubine, a divorced woman, or an adulteress?) she has had 5 husbands and the man she has now was not her husband, we have no way to know if this is infering a one flesh union with the 6th man or just a living situation and with no real clarification as to her current status or how she came to be in this situation, we can only infer from the response of the townsfolk and the disciples that she probably wasnt of a shameful status, which means probably not a prostitute or adulteress.

There are just so many holes and inconsistencies in the sex = instant marriage argument...
 
But how is this scenario handled when there is no authority? If the father is dead...does it become an exception?
From my understanding, her headship is transferred to her closest male adult relative.
We see this in the book of Esther, she was under the care of her uncle.

Good post, you’ve raised some serious questions.
I am reminded of King David’s daughter, Tamar, who expected to be her brother’s wife after her forced her. The marriage seemed to have been more of an expectation than a mandate that they were now married. David and Absolom apparently didn’t recognize the marriage. (This may have been addressed previously, I didn’t go back over the thread)
 
Back
Top