Pardon me for getting things confused @Off-Grid Artist. I could swear you said you were semi courting that Elle girl from a different post. I guess I misunderstood. Was that in a different time and place?
-
Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.
Excommunication Forthcoming!
- Thread starter Off-Grid Artist
- Start date
Off-Grid Artist
Member
You are correct. Elle is from a town about an hour and a half north and I don't know her well. The family unit with the sister (the feminist churchgoers who are our longtime friends) are from about that distance to the west. They are unconnected. I said "well I wasn't 'prospecting' anyone" but that is specific to my church group circles. It didn't include that situation.
Honestly that feels like years ago now, I moved on so hard that I don't even think about it anymore. Two separate situations. Elle was basically over the holiday time period, early-December to late-January.
There's another girl in Elle's town who started texting me out of the blue about a month back. My wife and I met her on Valentine's Day last year during a moment when we decided to just take a walk together, and I got her number. She's kind of pursuing me a little right now, we are in a light back-and-forth. I took her on a date with my family along, but it's not a big deal. She's cute and receptive but I'm a little burned out right now and just overworking a lot.
Off-Grid Artist
Member
Minor update. Last night my wife randomly encountered the younger sister the accusation of grooming has been made about. Reminder that neither of us sees this situation as resulting from her or her testimony, it is a result of their older sister who is my age.
This was two hours from our home as she was on the highway. It was a random dollar store within modest distance of their home.
It was an aloof and disconnected encounter. They did make eye contact, said hi, she held the door for my wife. She did not snub her. My wife reports that the energy was off. She feels that the girl has been coached against her.
Quite coincidentally, my wife reported to me that she felt very strongly that their hearts had been hardened against us, and she thought of Pharoah.
I say coincidentally because at almost the same time, three hours away, I was taking a Hebrew dance class with a married woman we take classes from. She is the main instructor to that girl Elle from months back. I haven't mentioned her because she isn't relevant in general. She is not easily connected to our church, being probably four steps removed or something.
We spoke about Israelite history for a bit. She mentioned social stigma and brought up Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart by Yahweh. I don't know if the high school drama with Elle ever reached her. I assumed that it had obviously been something she heard since I was asked not to come back to her classes at Elle's boss' house. We have continued taking instruction with us at her studio a handful of times.
My assumption has just been that she heard about the polygyny angle and is cool with it. Maybe those folks aren't gossips. She's on the same Messianic path we are - mostly - even though the rest of that crowd isn't.
The point is the Pharaoh mention, separately and hundreds of miles apart. And if I go back to a week and a half ago, the only male friend from my church I've been in contact with ALSO brought up Pharaoh and the hardening of hearts.
This is a three witnesses situation now.
Quite separate from all this, my wife - as a part of the emotional recovery process from this drama - has leaned hard into her female support groups. It has been really incredibly emotionally taxing on us. In the last few weeks a new older woman has come to her attention as someone who needs mentorship, guidance and support. Not a wifely candidate, just a hurting lady. So, my wife may be mentoring her on emotional recovery perhaps. Here's the funny thing - we have just established in the last few days that she is now going to Elle's boss' home and taking dance instruction from this same instructor. And she's a Sabbath keeper too so we may try invite her to an SDA church in that town next week. We aren't SDA and don't agree with their doctrine but they're everywhere if we ever need a random Sabbath service.
So that lady has invited us to come dance with Elle. And she's taken direction from a woman who is connected to our pastor. Part of moving here was to get away from the affects of being a public figure but it's happening again.
Separate aside - going back to the accusations. The older sister, my age, who threatened to ban my wife then immediately circulated false testimony about us. Before she married two years back I had been seriously considering approaching her about being a second wife to me. She and I had a ton of chemistry, and she has always been very attracted to me. She is aces at domestic housekeeping and cooking but very embittered from her first marriage. She's a "men are pigs" feminist with a lot of misandry. I have always teased her and maintained my masculine frame, and refused her emasculation attempts. Marrying her would be like putting a hornet's nest in the living room. She's a lovely hornet. But, in her first marriage she was with an openly polygynous FLDS dude. We didn't realize that she knew in advance before that marriage that he was polygyny-minded, but in the final discussion with her in the kitchen - the one which she used to accuse us of grooming her sister (an adult woman who wasn't present for half that conversation) she admitted that it was true. She thought she could "fix" him, but she was already going to their huge FLDS polygynous family reunions. She KNEW in advance yet has been using that failed marriage as a poor-me victimhood scenario since we met her almost five years ago. So that and her being attracted to me has something to do with this character attack. That's my wife's point.
I hope you all had your popcorn ready. If anyone established here wants to help us by having a video meeting next week, we could certainly use some support, just pm me. There are other things happening. We are experiencing spiritual attacks from various non-poly drama angles.
This was two hours from our home as she was on the highway. It was a random dollar store within modest distance of their home.
It was an aloof and disconnected encounter. They did make eye contact, said hi, she held the door for my wife. She did not snub her. My wife reports that the energy was off. She feels that the girl has been coached against her.
Quite coincidentally, my wife reported to me that she felt very strongly that their hearts had been hardened against us, and she thought of Pharoah.
I say coincidentally because at almost the same time, three hours away, I was taking a Hebrew dance class with a married woman we take classes from. She is the main instructor to that girl Elle from months back. I haven't mentioned her because she isn't relevant in general. She is not easily connected to our church, being probably four steps removed or something.
We spoke about Israelite history for a bit. She mentioned social stigma and brought up Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart by Yahweh. I don't know if the high school drama with Elle ever reached her. I assumed that it had obviously been something she heard since I was asked not to come back to her classes at Elle's boss' house. We have continued taking instruction with us at her studio a handful of times.
My assumption has just been that she heard about the polygyny angle and is cool with it. Maybe those folks aren't gossips. She's on the same Messianic path we are - mostly - even though the rest of that crowd isn't.
The point is the Pharaoh mention, separately and hundreds of miles apart. And if I go back to a week and a half ago, the only male friend from my church I've been in contact with ALSO brought up Pharaoh and the hardening of hearts.
This is a three witnesses situation now.
Quite separate from all this, my wife - as a part of the emotional recovery process from this drama - has leaned hard into her female support groups. It has been really incredibly emotionally taxing on us. In the last few weeks a new older woman has come to her attention as someone who needs mentorship, guidance and support. Not a wifely candidate, just a hurting lady. So, my wife may be mentoring her on emotional recovery perhaps. Here's the funny thing - we have just established in the last few days that she is now going to Elle's boss' home and taking dance instruction from this same instructor. And she's a Sabbath keeper too so we may try invite her to an SDA church in that town next week. We aren't SDA and don't agree with their doctrine but they're everywhere if we ever need a random Sabbath service.
So that lady has invited us to come dance with Elle. And she's taken direction from a woman who is connected to our pastor. Part of moving here was to get away from the affects of being a public figure but it's happening again.
Separate aside - going back to the accusations. The older sister, my age, who threatened to ban my wife then immediately circulated false testimony about us. Before she married two years back I had been seriously considering approaching her about being a second wife to me. She and I had a ton of chemistry, and she has always been very attracted to me. She is aces at domestic housekeeping and cooking but very embittered from her first marriage. She's a "men are pigs" feminist with a lot of misandry. I have always teased her and maintained my masculine frame, and refused her emasculation attempts. Marrying her would be like putting a hornet's nest in the living room. She's a lovely hornet. But, in her first marriage she was with an openly polygynous FLDS dude. We didn't realize that she knew in advance before that marriage that he was polygyny-minded, but in the final discussion with her in the kitchen - the one which she used to accuse us of grooming her sister (an adult woman who wasn't present for half that conversation) she admitted that it was true. She thought she could "fix" him, but she was already going to their huge FLDS polygynous family reunions. She KNEW in advance yet has been using that failed marriage as a poor-me victimhood scenario since we met her almost five years ago. So that and her being attracted to me has something to do with this character attack. That's my wife's point.
I hope you all had your popcorn ready. If anyone established here wants to help us by having a video meeting next week, we could certainly use some support, just pm me. There are other things happening. We are experiencing spiritual attacks from various non-poly drama angles.
Last edited:
Thanks for the update. I got through the whole bucket.
You are always welcome to join the Men's Video Chat on Wednesday. I have also done some face time with some other folks on Facebook Messenger, if you are part of any of the Biblical Marriages Face book groups.
Off-Grid Artist
Member
Okay I didn't know about this.
Perhaps we need to announce this more often.
Off-Grid Artist
Member
Tuesday (today) in the afternoon we are meeting with the pastor and his wife of a different church. This is the gentleman who received the phone call about me during the character assassination, and told me that I'm not banned right now but he wants to meet with me before letting me into the church. So, we will be laying out the story of how this all happened, as well as some basic verses and the structure of the purpose of polygyny. We don't expect him to let us into his church, but if he is willing then I would like him to help us clear up any misconceptions in the community and help us clear our names. Please pray for us to have to proper words and model good behaviors. I will be doing most of the talking.
That being the case, he'd kick out Abraham, Moses, David, and many others, so he's keeping the wrong people in and would happily kick the right people out. Sad, sad.
I like that the pastor is going through this effort. It must be difficult on his end, to have an unknown situation like this appear on his doorstep. I like his approach to handling it, and hopefully he's feeling God's peace through it all, even underneath the exterior. And hopefully he hears you out well, and does the right thing, even if it's an even harder thing that he may not have foreseen.
And, who knows, perhaps God is wanting to do something in this man and is using you for that.
Thank you for sharing your story. I feel that seeing how another man has been acting and reacting has been helping me. I like your courage and willingness to act, and hope to increase my own.
And, who knows, perhaps God is wanting to do something in this man and is using you for that.
Thank you for sharing your story. I feel that seeing how another man has been acting and reacting has been helping me. I like your courage and willingness to act, and hope to increase my own.
He has a conundrum on his hands. He understands that you need a place to worship and fellowship, but he is worried about what you might do once you get in. I suspect he is going to try to argue to convince you polygyny bad, but ultimately, he will lay out ground rules such as you won't discuss it while on church property.
If he is truly a servant of God, he will come in open minded and treat you with respect. I doubt he’ll suddenly adopt this doctrine. As a leader, I think he’s there to test your spirit and state of mind. Is he going to potentially allow a predator into his midst? Are you insane? A nutter? Or are you a Berean who’s come to a different conclusion honestly? Can you be led and managed? Can the two of you agree to disagree without you causing dissension within his flock? Are you there to truly worship, or proselytize? It’s not so much your position he’s interested in, it’s your demeanor and state of mind.
Off-Grid Artist
Member
It went okay. The meeting lasted for two and a half hours, maybe a hair more. I tried to keep the topic on the character assassination situation and not get dragged into a polygyny debate.
I will probably write more about it. Several times he started telling me why polygyny is wrong and might clearly even be a sin. He is not well studied on the topic, actually we found his small set of arguments to be the weaker arguments one could make. He also said he is not well studied on it, so he knows.
His wife is pretty feminist. She was getting angry and heated but she would defer to him when he would step in and cut her off so as to relieve the tension.
She kept trying to bait my wife into confirming membership in the fem sisterhood, but my wife wasn't having it.
Also I brought several packets of reading materials as a jumping off point. Pete Rambo's essay about polygyny as a framework for eschatology, the first six chapters or so of Man and Woman in Biblical Law, and a packet of my own arguments as collected from a recent text battle over the topic.
It was generally very poite and grounded. My respect for this leader has grown. I do not believe that he will let me come to his church but I do believe that he not perpetuate any gossip. I also think he might be willing to help me restore part of my reputation.
I will probably write more about it. Several times he started telling me why polygyny is wrong and might clearly even be a sin. He is not well studied on the topic, actually we found his small set of arguments to be the weaker arguments one could make. He also said he is not well studied on it, so he knows.
His wife is pretty feminist. She was getting angry and heated but she would defer to him when he would step in and cut her off so as to relieve the tension.
She kept trying to bait my wife into confirming membership in the fem sisterhood, but my wife wasn't having it.
Also I brought several packets of reading materials as a jumping off point. Pete Rambo's essay about polygyny as a framework for eschatology, the first six chapters or so of Man and Woman in Biblical Law, and a packet of my own arguments as collected from a recent text battle over the topic.
It was generally very poite and grounded. My respect for this leader has grown. I do not believe that he will let me come to his church but I do believe that he not perpetuate any gossip. I also think he might be willing to help me restore part of my reputation.
I would also refer him to the @biblemarriages YouTube channel, especially the Shorts, as they are concise and they show an opponent's statement, and give a quick rebuttal.
You should have hopped on the Men's Video Chat last night. I know you have expressed interest in interacting with live video. I am always there!
@Off-Grid Artist,
I generally side with joyful optimism as my disposition in most matters of life. But in practice, I’m a realist. In this situation, I believe your meeting went fairly well because this man really doesn’t know you. He’s got nothing personal against you has no need to escalate during a feeling-out meeting. The fact that there were no major fireworks doesn’t lead me to believe he’s got any more respect or admiration for your position. You are likely correct that he won’t welcome you into his congregation.
I’m curious as to why his wife would be a part of the meeting, though. I don’t know how the meeting was sold, but if he was meeting in his position as spiritual shepherd of a flock investigating potential dangers to that flock, then his wife really doesn’t have much of a role in that. I’d say elders of the church would be more appropriate.
If it was more friendly and informal, then his wife being there was appropriate, but not as an aggressive foil. If she was getting agitated and aggressive, then that was totally inappropriate.
I pray you have one less thing to worry about after this meeting, but the realistic side of me doesn’t see too much of a silver lining other than you got an audience. I could be wrong but I don’t see this going anywhere positive. Likely just neutral at best.
I generally side with joyful optimism as my disposition in most matters of life. But in practice, I’m a realist. In this situation, I believe your meeting went fairly well because this man really doesn’t know you. He’s got nothing personal against you has no need to escalate during a feeling-out meeting. The fact that there were no major fireworks doesn’t lead me to believe he’s got any more respect or admiration for your position. You are likely correct that he won’t welcome you into his congregation.
I’m curious as to why his wife would be a part of the meeting, though. I don’t know how the meeting was sold, but if he was meeting in his position as spiritual shepherd of a flock investigating potential dangers to that flock, then his wife really doesn’t have much of a role in that. I’d say elders of the church would be more appropriate.
If it was more friendly and informal, then his wife being there was appropriate, but not as an aggressive foil. If she was getting agitated and aggressive, then that was totally inappropriate.
I pray you have one less thing to worry about after this meeting, but the realistic side of me doesn’t see too much of a silver lining other than you got an audience. I could be wrong but I don’t see this going anywhere positive. Likely just neutral at best.
I’m guessing that she was the driving force for the meeting.
She gives the appearance of deferring to him, but she is not submitted to him. She cannot allow this teaching to take root in her territory.
This doesn't look good and may indicate a problem this man has in his own relationship. Protect your wife from the woman's poor influence and example.
That's an encouraging response. You don't need to win the war immediately, but it sounds like this battle had a favourable outcome. Shalom