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God's Laws vs. the laws of men

Just a quick observation on the healing during the Sabbath issue.
In my understanding, it was about the commandment to do no work on the Sabbath and to keep it holy. Literally one of the Ten Commandments.
Their reasoning was that healing was actually work and thus violated the commandment. It wasn’t about any separate law.
Yeshuah’s position was that it wasn’t work, therefore not a violation of the commandment.
 
MeganC said:
Perhaps it isn't the Word of God to you, but to many people of the time of Jesus it was. For many in our current time it still is.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Mishnah

The Mishnah is a collection of rabbinic traditions that supplements, complements, clarifies and systematizes the commandments of the Torah.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org jewishvirtuallibrary.org



The Mishnah provided the regulations which put the laws into action.
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Jesus (Joshua/Yahoshua) spoke against the Mishnah - which is one reason the Pharisees wanted to kill him. He said that through your traditions (Mishnah) - you nullify the commandments of the Father in Heaven (Mark 7:6-13). The Mishnah fulfills what the Creator said through the prophet Isaiah:

Ezekiel 22:26
Her priests do violence to my Torah.

They also did violence to the Torah made flesh.

The Messiah also said that their traditions (additions and subtractions) were putting a great burden on the people.

The Word of God says that it's sin to add or take away from the written Torah (The Scriptures/Old Testament). Adding law after law to the Sabbath (for example - the prohibition to heal) is sin. It creates a heavy burden on the people, and leads people away from truth.
 
MeganC said:
No one, since it isn't eternal but one day a week.
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It's the 7th Day. What is the 7th day of the week? It's Saturday:

Exodus 20:8:
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work—neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant or livestock, nor the foreigner within your gates.

It's eternal for his people - which includes the gentiles grafted into Israel through faith in his Son:

Exodus 31:15-17
The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time. 17 It is a permanent sign of my covenant with the people of Israel. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he stopped working and was refreshed.

The Son said it's easier for Heaven and Earth to pass than this law to be done away, or changed (Luke 16:17 and Matthew 5:18).

I know people take Paul's letters out of context:

Romans 14:5
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

But the book of Romans is not referring to the forever Sabbath. Sabbath is not the topic of conversation in the "Entire Book of Romans." Not just chapter 14. Catholics will admit that 'they' changed the Sabbath from the 7th day of the week - to Sunday (1st day). So when believers in Messiah keep the 1st day of the week - they not only bear false witness against Messiah (He said he's not changing it) - but they also acknowledge the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession. Roman Catholics also came up with Christmas - in honor of the Roman holiday called Saturnalia - the birthday of the Sun. Christmas - btw - falls on day 359. Satan's number in Hebrew is 359. Coincidence? Sun-god day? Sun-birthday?
 
Otto said:
Adding law after law to the Sabbath (for example - the prohibition to heal) is sin.
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Is it adding a law, or is it simply interpreting His law?
For example, if I schedule my hernia surgery to be on a Sabbath I would be definitely causing the surgeon and his staff to work.
It’s a healing thing, but I would still see it as sin.
One act of healing can be sin whilst another act of healing isn’t. It’s about whether or not anyone is doing work.
 
steve said:
Is it adding a law, or is it simply interpreting His law?
For example, if I schedule my hernia surgery to be on a Sabbath I would be definitely causing the surgeon and his staff to work.
It’s a healing thing, but I would still see it as sin.
One act of healing can be sin whilst another act of healing isn’t. It’s about whether or not anyone is doing work.
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Healing on the Sabbath is not sin, which includes hospital care. If all people cease from doing work on the Sabbath - there would be less need for emergency care on that day (construction accidents etc) - and more people would be able to spend time home.

If a foreign enemy attacks your town or city on the Sabbath - you have a duty to bear arms and defend yourself. There is an example of a righteous and God fearing group of men in the Apocryphal (which was included in the original KJV) - agreeing to this:

1 Macabees 2:41
On that day they decided that if anyone attacked them on the Sabbath, they would defend themselves, so that they would not all die as other Jews had died in the caves.

They were very successful as well. Nice speech at the end for his sons. This was not long before Messiah showed up:

Verse 49
When the time came for Mattathias to die, he said to his sons, These are times of violence and distress. Arrogant people are in control and have made us an object of ridicule. 50 But you, my sons, must be devoted to the Law and ready to die to defend God's covenant with our ancestors. 51 Remember what our ancestors did and how much they accomplished in their day. Follow their example, and you will be rewarded with great glory and undying fame. 52 Remember how Abraham put his trust in the Lord when he was tested and how the Lord was pleased with him and accepted him. 53 Joseph, in his time of trouble, obeyed God's commands and became ruler over the land of Egypt. 54 Phinehas, our ancestor, because of his burning devotion, was given the promise that his descendants would always be priests. 55 Joshua was made a judge in Israel because he obeyed the command of Moses. 56 Caleb brought back a good report to the community and was given a part of the land as a reward. 57 David was made king and was given the promise that his descendants would always be kings because of his steadfast loyalty to God. 58 Elijah, because of his great devotion to the Law, was taken up into heaven. 59 Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael were saved from the flames because they had faith. 60 Daniel was a man of integrity, and the Lord rescued him from the mouth of the lions. 61 Take each of these ancestors of ours as an example, and you will realize that no one who puts his trust in the Lord will ever lack strength. 62 Don't be afraid of the threats of a wicked man. Remember that he will die and all his splendor will end with worms feeding on his decaying body. 63 Today he may be highly honored, but tomorrow he will disappear; his body will return to the earth and his scheming will come to an end. 64 But you, my sons, be strong and courageous in defending the Law, because it is through the Law that you will earn great glory.

Luke 11:28
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
 
Naming the days of the week is filled with mistakes. How does one REALLY know when the seventh day is the seventh day? For all we know the seventh day could be our Tuesday! The gregorian calendar could have messed everything up. There are stars to observe but nothing says, "today is the fifth day..." Tangent to that is the idea that we have 12 months but the Hebrew does not.
 
Maddog said:
Naming the days of the week is filled with mistakes. How does one REALLY know when the seventh day is the seventh day? For all we know the seventh day could be our Tuesday! The gregorian calendar could have messed everything up. There are stars to observe but nothing says, "today is the fifth day..." Tangent to that is the idea that we have 12 months but the Hebrew does not.
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In Italy - the 7th day of the week is called “Sabado.” Which is taken from the Hebrew word “Sabbath.” Same with many other European countries. For example, “Subota” for Croatia. Also in Arabic - they’ve named their 7th day for the Hebrew word - sabbath.

1785354598406.jpeg
 
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Romans 14:5
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

^ There are even Jews that keep Passover on different days - depending on what calendar they use. Not just Jews - but gentile believers in Messiah - some keep the Passover on different days depending on the calendar they use.
 
Otto said:
In Italy - the 7th day of the week is called “Sabado.” Which is taken from the Hebrew word “Sabbath.” Same with many other European countries. For example, “Subota” for Croatia. Also in Arabic - they’ve named their 7th day for the Hebrew word - sabbath.

View attachment 12366
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What matters here is to have a Sabbath, to reserve a day for God. That's all.
 
MeganC said:
What matters here is to have a Sabbath, to reserve a day for God. That's all.
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My only concern is who changed it to Sunday, and then provoking God to jealousy by keeping someone else’s day of sabbath. Because he said it’s the 7th day (Saturday), and he didn’t change it. Men did. If God himself changed it - or explicitly said it can be on Sunday - then I don’t have an issue.
 
Otto said:
Healing on the Sabbath is not sin, which includes hospital care. If all people cease from doing work on the Sabbath - there would be less need for emergency care on that day (construction accidents etc) - and more people would be able to spend time home.

If a foreign enemy attacks your town or city on the Sabbath - you have a duty to bear arms and defend yourself. There is an example of a righteous and God fearing group of men in the Apocryphal (which was included in the original KJV) - agreeing to this:

1 Macabees 2:41
On that day they decided that if anyone attacked them on the Sabbath, they would defend themselves, so that they would not all die as other Jews had died in the caves.

They were very successful as well. Nice speech at the end for his sons. This was not long before Messiah showed up:

Verse 49
When the time came for Mattathias to die, he said to his sons, These are times of violence and distress. Arrogant people are in control and have made us an object of ridicule. 50 But you, my sons, must be devoted to the Law and ready to die to defend God's covenant with our ancestors. 51 Remember what our ancestors did and how much they accomplished in their day. Follow their example, and you will be rewarded with great glory and undying fame. 52 Remember how Abraham put his trust in the Lord when he was tested and how the Lord was pleased with him and accepted him. 53 Joseph, in his time of trouble, obeyed God's commands and became ruler over the land of Egypt. 54 Phinehas, our ancestor, because of his burning devotion, was given the promise that his descendants would always be priests. 55 Joshua was made a judge in Israel because he obeyed the command of Moses. 56 Caleb brought back a good report to the community and was given a part of the land as a reward. 57 David was made king and was given the promise that his descendants would always be kings because of his steadfast loyalty to God. 58 Elijah, because of his great devotion to the Law, was taken up into heaven. 59 Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael were saved from the flames because they had faith. 60 Daniel was a man of integrity, and the Lord rescued him from the mouth of the lions. 61 Take each of these ancestors of ours as an example, and you will realize that no one who puts his trust in the Lord will ever lack strength. 62 Don't be afraid of the threats of a wicked man. Remember that he will die and all his splendor will end with worms feeding on his decaying body. 63 Today he may be highly honored, but tomorrow he will disappear; his body will return to the earth and his scheming will come to an end. 64 But you, my sons, be strong and courageous in defending the Law, because it is through the Law that you will earn great glory.

Luke 11:28
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
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Of course hospitals and etc. have to function 7 days a week, I specified an elective surgery.
If you don’t see a difference between elective surgery and emergency surgery/normal patient care, then I would suggest that you have a problem not being able to identify legalism when you come across it.

The Pharisees’ problem was that they were trying so hard not to offend Yah that they chose to err on the excessively safe side of every issue. Making laws beyond what Yah said in order to avoid any possible misunderstandings.
You are taking the opposite tack and excusing actual work that could be avoided, absolutely violating the commandment to, beyond remembering the Sabbath, keep it Holy!
Color me astonished.
 
Genesis 2

2 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

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We need to remember that the Sabbath didn't come from Moshe. It is my strongly held view (after about seventeen years of study on the Torah within the rest of the Bible) that ALL of the Torah of Moshe predates him, and the flood, and dates all the way back to creation.

King David tells us of the value of Yahweh's instructions for us. I don't call them laws, they can also be interpreted as instructions. It's God's righteous manual for living. The tzitzi, not mixing fabrics, observing the set-apart Moedim - all of this still has value and purpose. Jesus didn't say to stop wearing tzitzi, he said to have humble tzitzi and not enlarge them out of arrogance. Observing the fabrics instructions has altered the health and wellness of our family, immediately and powerfully. The Holy Days of the Moedim create the rhythm for living which isn't present while observing the secularly-approved pagan days of observation.

Jesus specifically said that no part of His instructions would go away until all of history was complete. When Jesus walked the earth, He taught from the five books of Moshe, the Torah. The Apostles continued to observe the Torah. Paul declared in front of a large crowd that he still believed in and observed Torah, and we can see from his examples that he did in fact do so. John explains how understanding the instructions is how we know what sin is. We can also see the Torah instructions still remain in future prophecy.

The religious authorities had departed from the Torah. This happened in between being captured and enslaved in Babylon, and the coming of Yeshua. The Pharisees (and other sects) had developed what we call today "fences." The fences were all around the real commandments, making it impossible to live without failing. The Sabbath was extended. They had created lists of new man-made "sins" to keep everyone from committing real sins by not even getting close. But, these were impossible to keep. It was insanity, it was narcissistic madness and judgementalism of the highest order. The Torah itself is easy to follow and gratifying.

The reason the Pharisees (and other sects) had done this was fear. They were terrified after Babylon of being punished by Yahweh again. They took it into their own hands to create new, more rigid instructions. We see this today in the "Talmud" of the Rabbinicals. They call it the "oral Torah," but it's not in scripture until Jesus and the Apostles. Moshe never talks about keeping this "other (spoken but not written)" set of instructions! The only time we see references to this pre-Talmud (it wasn't written down until after Constantine by quite a while) "oral Torah" in scripture is when Jesus is instructing the people not to follow it, and to stick to only HIS words. He clearly states on multiple occasions (and backed up by the Apostles in later Biblical writings) that He expects people to still observe all His instructions.

While looking at the "Old Testament" (Tanakh) we can see many instances of Jesus pre-incarnation. Christophanies. My view is that it was ALWAYS Jesus appearing as God in the Tanakh. He gave the instructions to Moshe.

Try reading through all of the books of the Torah. Yahweh is constantly stating outright to Moshe that the instructions being given to the Israelites come from HIM. Go backwards, start with Deuteronomy if you want. The Torah is VERY repetitive. Yahweh (I view this as Jesus, the Word of Yahweh) states to Moshe over and over again to go to the people and tell them HIS instructions. These are not man-made.

Here's the reason for the repetition: Yahweh tells Moses, Moses tells the people, the people age, Yahweh tells Moses again, Moses tells the people again, the people die and more people grow up, Yahweh tells Moses, Moses tells the people. I'm not entirely sure there are "613" instructions given in the Torah. Some people say that, but the reality is that many of the instructions are only for the priesthood. Many are only for men. Many are only for women. Some are only for children. Some are only for single people, or for married people. It's really not very many. Consider that we live right now in a nation of MILLIONS of instructions and most of them suck (and contradict the Bible).

We are supposed to be coming OUT of the world. The brave people who invest in this online community are already doing that. I don't believe in the term "polygynists." We're just people who read the Bible and have come to understand marriage according to the Bible, the instructions for righteous living. I have heard a few Torah-observant "polygynists" say things like "I don't understand how anybody can claim to follow Torah and not accept Biblical marriage." The reason I state this is because at this point I personally don't understand how anybody can accept and speak about the validity of Biblical marriage but not be interested in learning more about Torah and it's validity. But, we're all on our own paths and frankly I think most of the people here are open to learning more all the time. We are generally not a closed-minded people, whether Torah-observant or "Replacement Theology" followers. Suffice to say I view Replacement Theology as just another holdover from Rome and Constantine. You really need to look around the time period of Origen to begin to see the first feelers of this viewpoint starting to manifest.

This is such a deep and rich topic. I could stand on stage and talk about this for three hours without a break, easily. I just did a breathless 45 minutes at an event we organized last weekend, but that was about the topics of "Feminism and Marxism in the church." I went pretty hard against feminism but asked the crowd to raise their hands if I had offended them, and nobody did, so I count that a win. Getting pretty close to just producing online content about Biblical Marriage and Torah but if I put time and money into that then I'll be launching it during this winter or the following spring.

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Leviticus 19

1 And Yahweh spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I Yahweh your God am holy.
3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am Yahweh your God.

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Exodus 3

2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

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Psalm 19

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 The Torah of Yahweh is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of Yahweh is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of Yahweh is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of Yahweh is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of Yahweh are true and righteous altogether.

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Psalm 119

1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the Torah of Yahweh.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
12 Blessed art thou, O Lord: teach me thy statutes.
13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
 
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steve said:
Of course hospitals and etc. have to function 7 days a week, I specified an elective surgery.
If you don’t see a difference between elective surgery and emergency surgery/normal patient care, then I would suggest that you have a problem not being able to identify legalism when you come across it.

The Pharisees’ problem was that they were trying so hard not to offend Yah that they chose to err on the excessively safe side of every issue. Making laws beyond what Yah said in order to avoid any possible misunderstandings.
You are taking the opposite tack and excusing actual work that could be avoided, absolutely violating the commandment to, beyond remembering the Sabbath, keep it Holy!
Color me astonished.
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If it’s elective, meaning, you can choose any day of the week, then why choose the sabbath? If it’s a sudden emergency - ok. If not - you’ve got six days to choose from. Scratch that - usually it’s just five days to choose from. Lucifer’s trinity likes to keep a lot of places closed on Sunday. For example, banks are usually open on Saturday but closed on Sunday.
 
Otto said:
If it’s elective, meaning, you can choose any day of the week, then why choose the sabbath? If it’s a sudden emergency - ok. If not - you’ve got six days to choose from. Scratch that - usually it’s just five days to choose from. Lucifer’s trinity likes to keep a lot of places closed on Sunday. For example, banks are usually open on Saturday but closed on Sunday.
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That’s the point, scheduling it on the Sabbath would be wrong.
 
Otto said:
My only concern is who changed it to Sunday, and then provoking God to jealousy by keeping someone else’s day of sabbath. Because he said it’s the 7th day (Saturday), and he didn’t change it. Men did. If God himself changed it - or explicitly said it can be on Sunday - then I don’t have an issue.
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Calendars have been changed time and again over the centuries. Even the Jewish calendar has adjustments to compensate for the differences between the lunar calendar and the solar calendar. The Jewish calendar as we know it was created by the scholar Hillel in about 358 BC. This was needed as there were arguments in prior calendars over which day of the week was the Sabbath, the dates of festivals, and the dates of feasts.

The week we use now comes to us from Hillel. But he standardized the days of the week. We accept his decision of what is the Sabbath but there is little to say whether he was right or wrong. He was just popular.

Meaning that the real Sabbath could be Sunday. Or Monday.

Note that the European calendar makes Sunday the last day of the week:


Which makes it the seventh day, doesn't it?

Again, my point is to pick a day and keep it Holy. That's what really matters.
 
MeganC said:
Calendars have been changed time and again over the centuries. Even the Jewish calendar has adjustments to compensate for the differences between the lunar calendar and the solar calendar. The Jewish calendar as we know it was created by the scholar Hillel in about 358 BC. This was needed as there were arguments in prior calendars over which day of the week was the Sabbath, the dates of festivals, and the dates of feasts.

The week we use now comes to us from Hillel. But he standardized the days of the week. We accept his decision of what is the Sabbath but there is little to say whether he was right or wrong. He was just popular.

Meaning that the real Sabbath could be Sunday. Or Monday.

Note that the European calendar makes Sunday the last day of the week:


Which makes it the seventh day, doesn't it?

Again, my point is to pick a day and keep it Holy. That's what really matters.
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It’s simple:

1. Pick your calendar

2. Every calendar is set on a 7 day week.

3. Sabbath is on the 7th day.

4. Find out what is the 7th day in your preferred calendar. That is the Sabbath.

Sunday is not the 7th day of the week. It’s the first week day of the week. It’s not the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a memorial that the Creator rested on the 7th day from his work. He didn’t rest on the first day of the week.
 
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At the time Jesus lived and walked among men, He knew which day was the rest day. And the Pharisees knew which day to accuse Him of not resting as their rules required. Work six days, rest one is the creation pattern set by the Creator Himself.
 
Ezekiel 20:13
But the people of Israel rebelled against me, and they refused to obey my decrees there in the wilderness. They wouldn’t obey my regulations even though obedience would have given them life. They also violated my Sabbath days.

21
But their children, too, rebelled against me. They refused to keep my decrees and follow my regulations, even though obedience would have given them life. And they also violated my Sabbath days.

24 They scorned my decrees by violating my Sabbath days and longing for the idols of their ancestors. 25 I gave them over to worthless decrees and regulations that would not lead to life 26 So that I may destroy them.

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The first half of the "Ten Commandments" deals with how the creation is supposed to behave towards their Maker. This includes keeping the 7th Day Sabbath, and staying away from idols.

If the first half of the "Ten Commandments" gets violated - which means his people are rejecting his commandments - then the 2nd half of the "Ten Commandments" - which deals with how we're to treat thy neighbor - will get violated. He says - "I will give them over to worthless decrees and regulations that do not lead to life."

Do we not see church decrees that lead to death and destruction? Churches opening the door for LGBQT? Yep. Churches pushing for full equality between men and women? Yep. So what the Creator says is righteous and innocent - they call evil and demonic. What the Creator calls an abomination - they call inclusion.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
 
Otto said:
It’s simple:

1. Pick your calendar

2. Every calendar is set on a 7 day week.

3. Sabbath is on the 7th day.

4. Find out what is the 7th day in your preferred calendar. That is the Sabbath.

Sunday is not the 7th day of the week. It’s the first week day of the week. It’s not the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a memorial that the Creator rested on the 7th day from his work. He didn’t rest on the first day of the week.
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Otto. My dear.

I'm with you on 1,2,3, and 4. ;)

But Sunday is only the first day of the week on the American calendar. For most of the rest of the world Sunday is the last day of the week.

The week isn't different. If it's Sunday in Europe then that will also be Sunday in the USA.

The only thing different is how they organize their printed calendar.

I can start my personal calendar on Friday and end it on Thursday. That means that Thursday can be my Sabbath if I so choose.

My broader point being to pick a day and to give it to God. God doesn't give a rip which day you pick. Just pick one and make it your Sabbath.
 
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