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Patriarchal Accountability

Kojent

Member
Male
I've been a long-time lurker in this community, and more recently, I've become burdened in prayer over a thorny problem that I believe warrants honest discussion: the question of patriarchal accountability.

Truth be told, I've always had a heart for the stranger. My desire is that all of God's people in Christ would be able to find a community to worship, serve in, and call their own—whether that's Reformed Anabaptists (yes, they exist in some small number) or polygynist practitioners and converts in Western society (as missiological exceptions already exist in Eastern contexts, even among intensely conservative microdenominations that have originated in the West).



The Drift

Folks who find themselves outside of the camp become a law unto themselves.

Because polygyny is societally unpalatable for various reasons, many people tire of receiving the left foot of fellowship and go off on their own to pursue what they believe to be appropriate. However, without the connective tissue of abiding inside of a body of believers, we drift. As these well-meaning people become a law unto themselves, their interpretation of Holy Scripture begins to matter as much (if not more) than the primary source material: Scripture itself, to include the demands it places upon disciples (between believers and disciples I make no distinction).



A Proposal

This is one reason I've been tinkering with the idea of a patriarchal online church.

To be clear, while I'm almost certainly not the right person to be formally participating in such a concept, and am in no way advocating to personally assist with such an idea, I'm still turning the idea over in my mind as something that seems to be sorely needed. I spotted a similar gap in a community of vagabond evangelists and tried to dedicate some cycles to thinking through how to improve things for them as well.

Now, while the legitimacy of a virtual ekklesia might be debated, in underserved communities I believe the real need outweighs any hypothetical nuance. Of course, it's easier to opt-in to opportunities to fellowship without any real accountability (as each head of household is essentially functioning as a law unto themselves), but it affords fewer iron-sharpening opportunities for the men and less protection for the women and children who find themselves in patriarchal households that may not be being managed properly. It also denies the entire household any benefits of exercising gifts and charity within the context of a larger community.

This is disheartening for many reasons, not the least of which would be that it is written that the world will know we are His disciples by our love for one another. If even unholy secular humanists exercise concern for other human beings that co-exist with them on their homesteads, what does our testimony of anti-social behavior really say about us if we aren't seeking to love our neighbor and especially those of the household of faith in a public way? What does it profit? "Do not even publicans do the same?" I digress..

With regard to a patriarchal online church, such a church could have a blended eldership representing both [Messianic] Jewish and Gentile perspectives, and exist for the purpose of mutual edification, wise counsel, and yes (gasp) accountability. They could stand in the gaps to clarify doctrines, resolve disputes and disciple patriarchs. With a composite group of qualified elders, the spirit of Romans 11 could also be fulfilled in a way that virtually every church today can't: there seem to be virtually no modern day mixtures of wild and natural branches where Messianic Jews and Gentiles worship together (pun intended).



Prophetic Reasons

There are even prophetic reasons (for those of you so inclined) to strongly consider such a proposal:

"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach." — Isaiah 4:1 (KJV)
"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." — Hebrews 10:25 (KJV)

How is it that we find ourselves in a community where many folks esteem Hebrew Roots and yet take lightly that which by inspiration was specifically written to the Hebrews? Or how is it that there are entire ministries being founded today based on a prophecy referencing polygyny, and yet these same contrarian champions may forsake the assembling of ourselves together?

I do not write this with a critical spirit, but rather to provoke you to love and good works. Please pray about this and consider it carefully.



The Separation Paradox

There also seem to be two different things at play here. The folks who stand apart from the church criticize it as diseased. Yet Paul's counsel was never for the faithful, orthodox members of the Corinthian church to depart from it, to flee. Contrariwise, there was no Scriptural precedent for existing faithfully outside of an institution and not congregating amongst yourselves. Even the Essenes had communities and caves.

So to say "I won't be a part of that unfaithful body" and yet "I won't congregate with any body" seems akin to a type of spiritual auto-immune disorder.

How is it that we have eyes which say to hands they have no need of them? Or how long can an ear, a finger or even a tooth survive apart from the body? If we have been given gifts to edify the body and yet exist apart from the body, do we not steal from the Giver of such good gifts?

Shall those who are not content to be diseased therefore be content to be disordered?

I think these are good things to think on also.



The Churchianity Tension

I understand this community's hostility towards and suspicion of "Churchianity." But at the end of the day, conservatively at least a third of the New Testament is written to churches. If Paul were alive today, many folks on these forums would've never received a letter. It is impossible to obey those who have the rule over you as a patriarchal man when you won't submit to the authority or oversight of another human being. This notion that we can be part of the body and yet live in a way that is happily divorced from it is without any scriptural precedent whatsoever.



A Broader Pattern

For what it's worth, I've observed the same phenomenon in other camps as well. Folks who are intensely evangelistic and regularly go out on the streets to preach are often ostracized from church communities, viewed with suspicion, and find themselves living as pilgrims and pietistic gypsies, traveling from one congregation to another. As time goes on, many of these people accumulate all kinds of curious doctrines, become plagued with repeated divorces, and other things that would disqualify them from just about everything except church discipline.

No doubt many of them mean well, and even began well. But we must pray and ask the Lord for grace to persevere unto the end, and to be numbered among the sheep of His pasture on the Last Day.



Opening the Conversation

I'm open to thoughts, pushback, constructive dialogue, etc. I don't know if something like this has been proposed in the past, but to my mind there would be many benefits, as we all have been given gifts by the Holy Spirit to minister one to another as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
 
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Now, while the legitimacy of a virtual ekklesia might be debated, in underserved communities I believe the real need outweighs any hypothetical nuance. Of course, it's easier to opt-in to opportunities to fellowship without any real accountability (as each head of household is essentially functioning as a law unto themselves), but it affords fewer iron-sharpening opportunities for the men and

You know, you can ask for mentorship here.

less protection for the women and children who find themselves in patriarchal households that may not be being managed properly.

You mean official pastor doesn't exist and they can't run to him?

Let's see what already exist for protection of women and children? Police, social service, divorce court run by feminists.....

And if want to ask for help, I'm certain many have open DM. And women already check each other regulary. You don't need to worry.

Contrariwise, there was no Scriptural precedent for existing faithfully outside of an institution and not congregating amongst yourselves. Even the Essenes had communities and caves.

What is another word for institution? Custom. And custom is habit done by group of people.

Does this community have any customs? Meetups maybe? They are form of congreating amongst ourselves.

If Paul were alive today, many folks on these forums would've never received a letter.

Just make public letter. Post it on Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, do podcast tour.

If anything, Paul would have solved distribution problem. I bet more would now read letter than in his time.

It is impossible to obey those who have the rule over you as a patriarchal man when you won't submit to the authority or oversight of another human being. This notion that we can be part of the body and yet live in a way that is happily divorced from it is without any scriptural precedent whatsoever.

Strange situation where "authority" can't order, but social status must be made by making contributions.

I have read cases of business where owner removes all management. You would thing more freedom would make people happy. Actually, opposite happens. They all get uncomfortable very fast.

This is what getting negative freedom result in. Confusion and chaos bacause there is nobody to make rules and who I'm to become.

But they negative freedom is combined with positive freedom (where people can decide to build themselves up) freewiling community can exist.

You are so mentally under need for lack of negative freedom that you can't imagine functioning without it.

More here:
 
This is what getting negative freedom result in. Confusion and chaos bacause there is nobody to make rules and who I'm to become.

But they negative freedom is combined with positive freedom (where people can decide to build themselves up) freewiling community can exist.

You are so mentally under need for lack of negative freedom that you can't imagine functioning without it.

More here:
My friend, with respect, you don’t know me.

I spent seven years outside of a church as a Christian leading my family. Not only can I imagine functioning without it, but I did for a very, very long time. I found a seminary before I found a church to become a covenanting member of, and joined the seminary to become a better priest of the home. I know all about life in the wilderness.

The Holy Scriptures have no concept of the rampant individualism you are promoting because the Author of us all delegated authority to different spheres, in which we are to joyfully participate and reverently submit when required.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." - 1 John 2:19 (KJV)

What is the Apostle whom Jesus loved saying to us here by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, @MemeFan?

Bear in mind that He wasn't a big teddy bear, either. This is one of the sons of Zebedee, a Ben Regesh, one of two Boanerges, or Sons of Thunder, that wanted to call fire down from Heaven in judgement. The same one who laid his head upon the chest of our Lord. One of three human souls to witness the Transfiguration. This is the one who legend has it was boiled in oil and came out unharmed before being exiled to Patmos where the Lord Jesus Christ gives him the distinct privilege of writing the last book of the Holy Bible.

Can I say the quiet part out loud? John had a lot figured out that you and I don’t. That’s why God preserved what he wrote, while what you and I wrote is hardly going to be printed, let alone preserved.

This is the sort of stuff you have to contend with if you're aiming to actually edify instead of merely pontificate. You need to pray about being willing to consistently deal with God’s people using God’s Word. It's the literal fount of all wisdom, containing everything we need for faith and practice in our lives.

My words and your words will pass away, but His won't. The Holy Spirit loves to use His own material. He repeats what He hears and He leads us into all truth. If He is within you, if it's no longer you that live but Christ, then shouldn't you make much of His Word by His Spirit also?

Why in all of your replies do you appeal to philosophy, psychology, politics -- seemingly anything except Holy Scripture?
 
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Posts where I qoute Bible:




I use all available tools.
The Holy Scriptures have no concept of the rampant individualism you are promoting because the Author of us all delegated authority to different spheres, in which we are to joyfully participate and reverently submit when required.
And where does exactly Bible says we have to submit to each other in general sense?

Qoute Bible, don't just say Bible says.
 
Posts where I qoute Bible:




I use all available tools.

And where does exactly Bible says we have to submit to each other in general sense?

Qoute Bible, don't just say Bible says.
My friend, I'm very pleased that you were able to find a few instances where you quote from Holy Scripture. I also rejoice that you only had to look back through a month's worth of posts to find it. Please continue to bring God's Word to bear when you and I interact: I would be blessed by learning more from you in accordance with God's Word. 🙏

To answer your question directly:

"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." - Ephesians 5:21 (KJV)

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." - Hebrews 13:17 (KJV)

Among many, many other places.
 
@Kojent, everything that you brought up really resonates with me. My wife and I were just discussing recently how patriarchy without accountability can lead to hyper patriarchy or "toxic patriarchy". Children are submissive to parents, wife is submissive to husband, but who is in a place of authority over the man? Of course we would say Jesus is, but the bible is clear that we are supposed to submit/esteem to our spiritual leaders as well. (1 Thessolonians 5:12+)

If we chose to completely remove all ecclesiastical from our lives, I think we are in violation of Binlical command. Otherwise, men view themselves as the "end all be all" for their actions, and women can not contending with them because of their call to submission.

Unfortunately this does become Complicated by the fact that there are so few pastors and churches that those in this community would align with, and be accepted into the church, so I think the response is pretty understandable, but this is also why I am very interested in your proposal.

I am not sure how it would look exactly, and I think you are saying you don't either, but in theory, I think something along these lines would be very healthy for this community.

And @MemeFan, all due respect, but your responses only confirm the value for healthy male accountability 😅
 
@Kojent, everything that you brought up really resonates with me. My wife and I were just discussing recently how patriarchy without accountability can lead to hyper patriarchy or "toxic patriarchy". Children are submissive to parents, wife is submissive to husband, but who is in a place of authority over the man? Of course we would say Jesus is, but the bible is clear that we are supposed to submit/esteem to our spiritual leaders as well. (1 Thessolonians 5:12+)

If we chose to completely remove all ecclesiastical from our lives, I think we are in violation of Binlical command. Otherwise, men view themselves as the "end all be all" for their actions, and women can not contending with them because of their call to submission.

Unfortunately this does become Complicated by the fact that there are so few pastors and churches that those in this community would align with, and be accepted into the church, so I think the response is pretty understandable, but this is also why I am very interested in your proposal.

I am not sure how it would look exactly, and I think you are saying you don't either, but in theory, I think something along these lines would be very healthy for this community.

And @MemeFan, all due respect, but your responses only confirm the value for healthy male accountability 😅
Thanks Brother, great to read that this resonates with another blood bought believer. Soli Deo Gloria. May the Lord bless you.
 
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