@ZecAustin Would you like it to be closed or ? I think that you are the OP on this thread so Andrew was kind of leaving it up to you.
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Abraham and Isaac
- Thread starter The Revolting Man
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Are you sure you want to involve Mishnaic perspectives and Shas?
I'm not sure what commentary you pulled that out of but I'll be *HAPPY* to throw talmudic sources in here. Be advised talmudic discourse is different than the approach we all have taken in this discussion; there are for example other talmudic opinions regarding Noachide laws which you referenced and even the number or Noachide laws in existence (some sources list 47 which extrapolate much more on nuances of various crimes [murder for example]).
Talmudic thought overwhelmingly favors our position: Rabbinical assumptions are that Hashem created the Torah before creation and it's always been the ideal and always will be...
Let me know if you have access to Talmud Bavli and we can move the discussion in that direction; also it must not be "Rodkisons" or whatever it's called similar to that. I don't want to have to deal with bad translation, incorrect dafs and skipped sections.
I'm assuming you have some commentary which cherry picks references from Bavli only.
Let me know also if we are limiting our discussion to Talmud Bavli or can I include also Yerushalmi?
waiting for your go ahead because this sort of dispute takes a lot of time. Please respect my time and only pull the trigger if you are prepared for a full Talmudic discourse meaning you have access to at least Talmud Bavli in it's entirety so you can check dissenting halachik opinions in Shas and you are familiar with how to interact with Rabbinic thought.
From your post it seems not.
I'm a little excited someone in here has an interest in this mode of Torah interpretation, there is a lot of wisdom in Shas but most shy away due to it's voluminous nature.
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**** the scope of my message is to Kevin and not part of the greater discussion ... He enjoys keeping Torah it seems so I'm responding to that and not forcing anyone else to obey G-d's written Law so don't freak out please ***
many many traditions are beautiful and good and useful.
Sometimes we oversimplify when saying tradition=bad; often traditions serve as a preservation tool for folk wisdom.
It has been my experience visiting Gentile churches that there are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more traditions in most of those places than is to be found among Jews. The problem is the Gentile traditions stem from a myriad of pagan resources or rotten theologian/murderers (i.e. Martin Luther the murderer) yimach sh'mo.
Everyone points the finger at the Catholic church (which is nasty I agree) not realizing what traditions they themselves inherited from that church.
I like how @andrew referred in an old thread to Protestants as "protesting Catholics".
There is a general misunderstanding that Yeshua is always anti-Pharisee when the very L-rd's prayer is an adaptation from a Pharisaical prayer.
Yeshua chopped it down to make it shorter; He is in effect giving the nod the the Hillilite method of prayer.
My wives light candles before shabbat ... usually. We understand it's a tradition and the tradition is beautiful. It adds to the sanctity of the shabbat by doing something not allowed to do on shabbat mere moments before it begins as a way of saying "the bible doesn't allow us to start fire on the sabbath so we are going to do it now before the sabbath starts as a nice way of marking what is coming".
Where people get into trouble is when they focus so much on the candle lighting (usually ladies since it's their duty) that it'll already be after sundown and the rush to light the candles. This is a perfect example of a tradition causing someone to violate G-d's commands. "Do not kindle a flame on the sabbath day".
So the importance when we espouse or adopt any tradition is to understand it's usefulness in our walk.
It's the happiest time for me in the week when both my wives are together kindling the sabbath candles just before shabbat.
I feel Hashem's blessing and unity in our family. So for us this is a nice edifying tradition which unites our people from age to age and for us has the added bonus of reminding us of Yeshua, the light of the world.
There are others I have recommended they not adopt this tradition because I know them and they were constantly violating by lighting after the shabbat started already and others I know will loose focus and it becomes all about the tradition (Obsessive compulsive types).
For me and my family, the traditions link us to my ancestors and I have no intent of abandoning them for some Gentile replacements or hippy over-easy-goingness. There are those who are led by the spirit and those whom it it blows around like chaff and stubble (see psalm 1).
In my world, the perfect faith experience is based on rock solid scripture as the absolute foundation, followed by guidance by the Holy spirit and complimented by beautiful traditions. For children, they will always remember the things like candle lighting, tzitzit tying, sabbath ice cream, etc. and noone will be able to take that away from them. You do not have to be fearful of traditions. You can adopt as you feel comfortable.
As your graft takes and gets stronger you will have an instinct about G-d's way more and more.
Beware of those who are overzealous against the "rabbis" in my experience they usually don't know very much about what the great sages taught.
If you like extrabiblical things I can recommend a reading from Avot from the talmud, also known as "Pirkei Avot" the ethics of the Fathers.
You will be shocked at the similarities with Yeshua's teachings.
Beware of popular "Karaites" who love to bash the rabbis together with their "Hebrew roots" buddies who accept them in open arms when those Karaites themselves reject Yeshua as the messiah. (Nehemia Gordon) for example.
Most important for someone in your chosen walk is of course reading the Torah and studying fully. Listen to it on audio when driving, as hearing can produce a different kind of obedience and level of understanding and awareness of what is not understood. Read it more often than the simple yearly cycle.
I usually read the written Torah 8 times or more a year depending on my leading from the spirit and there are always new insights.
The Torah is the filter by which all scripture is judged by Messianic Jews and Hebrew roots people (though we differ a great deal between the groups) and even within the groups.
Never stop to notice the beauty and genius of Adonai's timeless Torah especially when you see a command which says "do this from generation to generation" (Hebrew idiom for "forever") or "yom hashabbat hi ot l'olam" "the sabbath day is an eternal sign". You are getting fully grafted in and all the blessings of Israel are there for you to behold. So don't fear, move foreward with joy and awe that you have had this revelation.
There is no end to bible learning and the infinite wisdom the creator has poured in to it and it edifies any kind of being led by the spirit that's out there.
Tradition can be your friend as there are traditions which hearken back to Adam rishon, the first man and often these traditions can keep us out of trouble.
If you want to learn about a good tradition I recommend you google and read about "shomer nega" (safeguarding touching)
My family keep this tradition, the woman don't touch men who aren't me or their family members and I don't touch (shake hands etc) women who are not mine. Sometimes an over zealous church member won't get the hint when I'm bowing to her and she thrusts her hand in my space so I'll just shake it because it's a tradition, not a command. I find this tradition extremely useful as my wives seem to really appreciate that their polygamous husband isn't touching all the pretty girls who were wowed by his sermon
**** those who don't keep G-d's written law ****
This post was meant to reply to @Kevin and others like him who enjoy learning about and keeping G-d's beautiful Law. It's not an attempt to sway other denominations to Messianic Judaism so let's not spiral into a debate about the Law please.
Shalom
Couple of things....
First, from mine and VV76's pov, we're not impugning God at all (I think I can speak for VV76 here). VV76 has already explained that at length, so I'm not going to rehearse it here, but for anyone that wants to go back over the thread, it's there. It's only "impugning God" from the pov of your priors.
Second, I'm willing to stipulate for the sake of discussion that I can find no specific command in the OT against offering children to God as a burnt offering. Ergo, it is permissible, has always been permissible, and will always be permissible (your logic, not mine) for parents to offer children to God as a burnt offering. If you think that's not what you're saying, would you care to explain why you think that?
To be clear, I personally find sufficient basis for such a prohibition in the Noachide covenant and the general widespread condemnation in the OT of such practices by others (or wait, maybe the problem wasn't child sacrifice per se, it was just that they were sacrificing to the wrong God, is that it?). But I am willing to follow your argument to its logical or illogical conclusion. So assume for the sake of argument that there is no express "thou shalt not" forbidding the throat cutting, dismemberment, and burning of the remains of one's children. Now what?
Wow I just used the sabbath candle example in a response to @Kevin having not seen your post yet.
So here we are...
yes that blessing is a little rich; it's also the goto example for anyone making an example about "Jewish-tradition gone wild".
That being said, the rabbis do distinguish between Torah mitzvot and rabbinical decrees. If you worship at an Orthodox synagogue (as I enjoy doing when I'm in the land or a city big enough to have one), any discussion about mitzvot from the drash or among members everyone always will say things like "that isn't from the rabbinan, it's from written torah meaning "you aren't ever allowed to violate that one, it's in the bible actual". You'll also hear, "it's just from the rabbinan" in conservative Jewish communities. The idea is "look it's not a sin to violate it"
The reason for the blessing over the candles comes from a convoluded (in my opinion) understanding about G-d commanding light into darkness and such with mystical support from Zohar. There is actually a fairly strict adherence in the rabbinical community to not implore Hashem as the commander when it's a addition by the rabbinan. The Orthodox jewish community also understand that we can lift Rabbinical decrees at some point in time and some are set with expirations. The binding nature, however, does make sense in light of history. The Rabbi's are in the seats as Moses set up ruling over various groups who were allowed to decide legal cases...these decisions eventually developed into a legal tradition and a san hedren referred to by Yeshua as "the council" (you'll be in danger of the "council" meaning they have the right to decide your case here on Earth). So there is an unbroken precedent for rabbis making legal decisions (i.e. adding blessings etc) over Jews, or over Gentiles if they live in the land of Israel.
The Rabbi Gershom decree that Azhkenazi Jews will not practice polygamy for 1000 years, for example has expired in our liftetimes and now these communities are beginning to move in the direction of polygamy again.
I have noticed in the "Hebrew roots" movement a great misunderstanding, perhaps intentional, by some of the leaders (not you Mark) regarding rabbinical reasons for doing things. I enjoy my talmuds, and enjoy studying them. There is not a page not chock full of biblical references, often Psalms which I'm usually delighted to find how they work a psalm in to a particular exploration of a particular command.
I hope those who keep G-d's written law can pause for a bit and realize that we would have not even any vowel signs in our Hebrew bibles if not for the Rabbinical traditions. There is an entire talmud tractate (Soferim) dedicated to how to preserve holy books in the bible, how scribes should watch out for reish and dalet since they are similar looking, and such.
I'm not saying the rabbis are correct on everything, but it is astounding to read Paul for example and see echos from rabbinical thought all over his teachings. It's neat to see cases decided by Rav Gamliel who Paul holds in such esteem that he lists him as his teacher.
Ok a bit long-winded, I assume you knew a lot / all of this already but i'm hoping it will be illuminating for some.
See my post to @Kevin how many traditions are great and preserve behavioural wisdom.
(sorry for my spelling mistakes, when I learned European languages they wrecked my English spelling)
To get this I think you need to think about the concept of Holiness as it is derived entirely from procedure.
King Shaul (Saul) was impugned for making a sacrifice (a bull) to G-d because he was not a priest. Is it allowable to sacrifice a bull to G-d? Yes.
Is there a proper procedure which must be followed? Yes. Did Shaul sin when he offered the bull? Yes.
He was not in authority to do this sacrifice. Sacrifices must meet certain prescriptions and come after a malchizedek or aaronic authority and at proper places, namely Holy ground.
You are not allowed to walk out and slit a cows throat for Hashem. You don't have the authority and I'm guessing you don't live in Israel, the holiest land on Earth. Holiness demands G-d's procedures to be followed; He chooses how to do things.
Avraham meets the qualifications of a priestly office as did Yeshua...not like the Aaronic office but like the Malchizedek office.
What's particularly interesting about the Abraham-Isaac epic is that G-d is involved in the process and even shows Avraham the holy location (where the temple would one day be built on Mt. Moriah).
In all things biblical we must follow G-d's prescription. That's what determines holiness, doing it His way not our own ad hoc creative way.
We don't get to invent what's holy be it places, times, or rituals-Abba does it.
Yes, sacrifice to Hashem is allowed as are all sacrifices which fit his prescription for holiness...ie. follow His commands.
The uncompleted sacrifice of Isaac fit this criterium because Avraham was guided by an audible voice eminating from G-d not some gut-feeling or indigestion. No barking in the spirit, no rolling around laughing for hours or other manifestations we see in Hinduism today,
but an audible voice from G-d. Abraham's office is even above that of a priest because he's the only person to receive the much higher office of
"friend of G-d".
The ancient world saw things much differently than we do today and it's inappropriate to apply today's rationale and put it on ancient believers. I do not believe it was such a strange request since many of the pagan traditions like later Baal tales as outlined in the Baal cycle epics mimic biblical stories. In Abraham's day, with the state of revelation, offering up your child to the relatively unknown G-d, later known as the G-d of Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't occur to anyone to do because nobody was following Him, hence he did not need to outlaw offering up "your own child as an offering to me" hence it was not illegal. Offering up a child before the child can sin is in a way a perverse protection against hell if we can just escape from the 21st century world view...it's just not that weird of a request from G-d back then.
For this reason G-d did not need to forbid such an act. He had only a few followers in those days and surely He knew their hearts.
With Israel being out of Egypt, we were given a stricter set of rules with the Mosaic covenant and if one wanted to offer sacrifice he had to do it by the hands of the descendants of Aaron, or Aaron himself. See my example above about King Saul sinning by offering a sacrifice himself.
G-d later outlines what kinds of sacrifices are acceptable, how they are to be killed, and by whom, and where.
With Yeshua the law gets even more restricted as he "pleiroo" (Greek fills up) the Law adding even more commands and stringincies (don't hate brother in heart, don't look at other man's wife with lust, etc.)
So in Avraham's day, with his worldview and the worldview of all cultures in those days, you are correct; it was not a sin to offer up your child to the G-d of Avraham if you occupy a priestly or higher office; and G-d knew this wasn't a preblem because Isaac was the son of the promise, what idiot would destroy a gift G-d Himself had given to you? There was no need to outlaw such a thing. Nobody begs for a child for years and then offers him up.
You have a religion with a handful of followers and the main follower isn't about to destroy your gifts to him which are living testimonies to your greatness.
so in short: yes, child sacrifice was allowed for those in an office to do it i.e G-d's "friends" or "priests of G-d" at "holy sites chosen by G-d Himself" at "holy times chosen by G-d himself"
every use of "shafakh dam naki" "spilling the blood of the innocent" is used in a "betsa" "Ill-gotten-gain" manner. This clearly does not apply to priestly or "G-d's friends" actions.
hehe I agree, though actually it's already 3 different threads at least.
We can split the part about Noachide laws out as well
and Talmudic discussion
and maybe Peter's vision lol
so 4 new threads, maybe good for SEO?
Found this gem from frederick back on the first page of this thread. We probably should have just put a fork in it here:
Take away from that what you will. We're done here. I'm locking this thread, and if anyone feels there's unfinished business, feel free to start your own thread.
Reminder: God took the life of Ezekiel's wife to make a point (see Ez 24). He does what He wills, and we are not His judges. Abraham, acting on the authority delegated to him by God, was doing what he could not and would not have done on his own volition.
Take away from that what you will. We're done here. I'm locking this thread, and if anyone feels there's unfinished business, feel free to start your own thread.
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