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aklirich

Re: alkirich

No, absolutely not. What's good is when everybody is on the same page and wants what God wants (see Ps 133).

And a "current disagreement" suggests that objections will be overcome, emotions will settle down, and common ground will be found eventually. That's not really the fact situation I had in mind.

If on the other hand a man is willing to attempt polygamy 'over the dead body' of his soon-to-be-ex-wife, then there ought to be alarms going off for everyone, including especially the woman who was supposedly being courted as a 'second' wife. If that doesn't raise some serious questions for her about the kind of man she's marrying and what his real intentions are, then for me that would raise some serious questions about the kind of woman she is and what her real intentions are.
 
@ alkirich

Sir, at least we are on the same page with love. I was also not thinking about romantic love too but love as in sacrificing oneself for others.

I have to warn you, sir, that I am not well-versed in scriptures and I may be pulling things out of thin air. :D

Regarding cutting off ourselves from even our families to follow Him. It was a no-brainer for the apostles to drop everything and follow Jesus/Yeshua (although I'm interested to know if they left any dependents behind). But like what Steve stated or implied, are we really "following" Him? Actually, I also use that question to check myself often. If it is possible for God to be annoyed, he must be particularity annoyed with me. :D

There are advice in the scriptures that particularly deal with marriage/relationship and divorce and I personally prefer to hew close to them. As for wives whom we love but who refuse to break free from deception, the thing we need to do in order for them to finally see the truth through us is, IMHO, to love them more. We are merely instruments of God's will.


@ andrew

Sir, seems like we are united in that concept of we should be the best examples of husbands and fathers.

Thanks to all.
 
pebble said:
As for wives whom we love but who refuse to break free from deception, the thing we need to do in order for them to finally see the truth through us is, IMHO, to love them more.
That was very well said.
 
@Andrew, thanks very much for your mail. It occurred to me that this question (or questions) cannot be properly answered on a forum. I should be more proactive in finding a group that believes in poly and have discussions with them.

Secondly, I perceive that this is a discussion that many people will find sensitive. Chances are that a few men on here are struggling with this question too. I noticed that there are now 3 of us to have stated this publicly, in the space of less than 30 posts!

No sir, I don't believe that leadership gives us the right to treat our wives deceptively (I am trying to respond to your comment:"If on the other hand a man is willing to attempt polygamy 'over the dead body' of his soon-to-be-ex-wife"). It is not my WILL at all cost. My view is to lead in love, teach and instruct but knowing that, in this case and in several other cases, as a husband, the Lord will ask you to account....and not your wife. Remember Sarah? She went with Abram to an unknown place (Isaiah 51:2). From that passage, it was Abram that was called (alone). Should Abraham have continued to remonstrate with Sarah had she refused to leave certainty for uncertainty? You will recollect that Haggai was not sent away at the insistent of Sarah; NO. It was because the Lord said so. (Gen 21: 10-11).

My questions are on the principle. If we tacitly concede that it is the man and his first wife that are looking to add to their family (and not that the man is right to want to select whom he wants as his wife in all righteousness) are we not agreeing with the rest of the society that patriarchy is archaic and men cannot be trusted to lead righteously?


Like I said, these questions are better discussed in a long discussion.
 
aklirich is, in my opinion, correct in his questioning, and, again in my opinion, the answer which God's Word gives will not be popular. What I am about to say could very well blackball me, but I've reached the point in my life that I will speak the truth and let the dice fall where they will.

As Tom so aptly demonstrated in his book, Man and Woman in Biblical Law, patriarchy is a creation principle. One finds this then throughout Scripture. "The woman was made for the man ..." "The wife should submit to her husband as to the Lord."

That is the teaching of God's Word. No apologies.

Yes, the husband is to love his wife as "Christ loved the church" and "no man ever hated his own flesh". Yes.

Nonrtheless, "Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman, and God is the head of Christ".

Men are called to serve Christ; He is our head. The woman is to serve her husband; he is her head.

We are called to be fruitful and multiply. If in obedience to that command the husband wants to add another wife or wives, where is the need for a special call from God? Where is the need for the permission of his current wife/wives?
 
@JayJ, with views like this, you might be banned from a few restaurants if you are dinning out tonight. LOL



Paul said, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" as part of his reason for patriarchy. I bet he dare not say that in churches today.

I guess the point of my questions is, has the Lord given a man the authority to rule in his own house or not? Are we in danger of pandering to the politically correct police(surely, a man taking a second wife, despite the objection of his first wife, regardless of how long he had tried to lead her lovingly, will look horrible on CNN.). How patriarchal is it if, despite a man really wanting to take a particular woman as a second wife, the first wife objected and , well, preferred someone else? Is it up to him or up to her? Should a man be trusted not to bring in a woman that will damage the rest of the family or does he need babysitting by his first wife and a man should not be trusted with such a weighty decision.

Someone once told me that all that a man owes his wife(or wives) is a scripturally sound explanation and love to aid assimilation of the truth. Beyond that, is it disrespectful to the husband (nay to God) to demand more?
 
aklirich said:
I guess the point of my questions is, has the Lord given a man the authority to rule in his own house or not?
Ask a simplistic question, you get a simplistic answer. Yes.
 
@Andrew: sir, do I perceive a disdain? Having "eavesdropped" on here for months, I have come to expect a robust response to questions raised here. Of course , it is NOT a simplistic question, it is a probing questions. Such as, if that is true, what is the limit ? Does it apply here? If not, why not? etcetera.


Am I asking unpleasant questions? Should I just read information at the resource section and do all it says and be a good boy?
 
No, you're not perceiving a disdain. As a general rule, don't try to extract tone and emotion from written correspondence. At least not any from me.

You're not asking unpleasant questions, you asked a simplistic question. Instead of being offended you might ask yourself why I would call it that.

Whether you're getting anything out of these conversations or would be better off just reading is a call only you can make.
 
cwcsmc said:
andrew said:
aklirich said:
I guess the point of my questions is, has the Lord given a man the authority to rule in his own house or not?
Ask a simplistic question, you get a simplistic answer. Yes.
Under His headship.
Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

(I figure we haven't really explored enough entertainment culture references yet.....) ;)
 
"Authority" to take an action does not equal "wisdom" to take that action. With great authority comes great responsibility, and therefore a great need to hear from God, on your knees, in order to not screw things up. I have seen too many men with the authority to do something in their family, bring destruction to it. "But, I had the authority...." is a pretty hollow excuse, when examining the carnage you've wrought.

(I know Tom Shipley agrees - we've had this discussion.)

I'll go farther: Does a man have a 'right' to take another wife? Certainly. In my opinion (not the Word), it's almost always a bad idea (not 100%, I know there are special circumstances - you must hear from God), if your existing wife/wives are not with you. You can move forward slowly, bringing them with you. If you can't, it's almost always the man's fault - something he's failed to get right before approaching this issue, or while loving her thru it. Again, my opinion - and what I've experienced watching many men walk this road.
 
akli;
The enemy of our souls HATES poly done right.
He has done his damnedest to entice believers to get into situations that bring the appearance of shame on the concept. Examples that all of the monogamaniacs can point out to prove that they are right.
Exercising "authority" is probably the least likely way to produce a positive testimony for the Kingdom. Please keep this in consideration.
 
steve said:
alki;
The enemy of our souls HATES poly done right.

Very perceptive, as always, sir.

A long time ago, poly was the norm and whatever it is that is common is not valued much. Probably why there were those rules pertaining to poly alone.

This age is the opposite. We are "fighting" to get this truth out and accepted by the most number of people as possible and the best sermon we can do is set an example, according to His will. Anything less WILL be used by the other side to further his lost cause. Actually, I don't care about his cause except that it was also written that many souls will be lost with it.

I am also sorry if I may have offended anyone with my pigheadedness, not my intention.

I kinda like the idea of iron sharpening iron. Let it be iron against iron then, not tofu against tofu. :D

Thanks to all.


BTW, there are times (a huge number of them) when my beliefs get smashed to smithereens and that ugly thing called pride starts to creep into sulking mode. For those times I let this pop up into my mind:

Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Galatians 4:16

Ultimately, I prefer the truth, no matter how it hurts, to lies, which actually hurts more when exposed by the truth.
 
@Nathan7. I cannot agree with you more. Having the right and the resources to do something does not mean that it is expedient to do it at a point in time. Beyond our personal wisdom, though, we all should actively depend on the leading of the Holy Spirit. For instance, though Abraham was insistent on keeping Ishmael and Haggai, God showed up to advice him otherwise and Abraham was humble enough to follow that leading. We live in a better dispensation; we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

My perception of contributions so far is that, while there seem to be a consensus on the freedom of a man to add to his family (without let) ---as a principle, Love-not-force is a practice that is expedient to have so that the "monogamaniacs " (as Steve described them) will have nothing to latch on to. I think @pebble put it better than I could have.

Well, in my opinion, that is a reasonable middle ground to take for a concept that is widely frowned-at in the society. Knowing that Satan is a captor that will not let his captive go, no matter what; it must be understood, though, that love-not-force will not palliate a rabidly hostile society. I believe that every man, polygamous or monogamous, must the encouraged and taught to exercise their leadership knowing that they are accountable unto God. At the same time, our women (especially younger women) should be taught to rely absolutely on their husband's judgement in all things. I felt that if we emphasize the fact that our men are godly, whether in a monogamous or in a polygamous relationship, we will increasingly build a pool of women that will come to practice order in the home according to the pattern of the Lord.

This have extensions to homes where polygamy is practised. As I mentioned in my earlier contribution, I perceive that the consensus today is that “a family is looking to add to the family”. Is it not the husband that is adding to his family? I have seen, on several websites that I have been visiting as I try to understand more, instances of the first wife having a very active role in courtship of a new wife. If the wife have fully accepted trust in the judgement of her husband, apart from being made aware and her questions answered, why should she be involved in dinners evenings between the husband and the potential second wife, asking questions directly from the potential second wife, etc. Is this not a bye-product of love-not-force even in homes with more than one wives? Is that not the wives saying, “we can't trust that bloke(as we say in the UK) to do the right thing, we better get involved”? I have even stumbled on a model where it the wives' who select whom to add to the family; no input from the husband at all.

In my very, very, little experience of pioneering work, things of God (which is foolishness, anyway, to them that are perishing) have to be done according to HIS will for it to be successful. Any middle way we try to find will not be good enough.

Had there been love-not-force in the days of the fathers, how many polygamous families will there be even then? Honestly, if the law permits a woman to say “no second wife” and there is nothing in the law a man can do as long as she says no, what is in it for a woman to say yes? I have, in my study of the scripture, so far failed to find anything that a Christian woman would have done wrong if they object to a second wife. They would not have been disrespectful, they would not have been disobedient (there is nothing they would have disobeyed; they have merely expressed a preference).

It occurred to me that, in monogamous and polygamous families, we should actively promote the order of God. To think that if me are given full authority, according to the scripture, they will be abusive might be to be second-guessing the wisdom of God. While it might seem far-fetched now, I am persuaded that there will be a day in our life-time (ops, I don't know how old everyone is) when it will be mainstream in the church for a man to seek to add to his family and that will be taken as a given.
 
aklirich said:
My perception of contributions so far is that, while there seem to be a consensus on the freedom of a man to add to his family (without let) ---as a principle, Love-not-force is a practice that is expedient to have so that the "monogamaniacs " (as Steve described them) will have nothing to latch on to.
This may be your opinion, but if this is your take-away from what's been said so far, then I don't think you're hearing the right message. Being attentive to the needs and fears of our first wives is not something we do because we're afraid of what the monogamaniacs think or because we're compromised with the world. It's something we do because we love our first wives.

There is no direct commandment in the bible for men to rule arbitrarily in the name of God. There are commandments to the women to submit to and respect their men, and men are commanded to love their wives and treat them as weaker vessels, and to give themselves for their wives. If the consideration of polygamy throws up red flags for your wife, it is revealing things in both of you that need to be worked on.
 
Aklirich, I agree with both you and others that a man has full authority in his home. It is his choice whether to marry a first or subsequent wife. However in actually practicing this we must bear a number of things in mind.

If God has directed you to marry a first wife, then He has directed you to keep her. If you then act in a manner that would force her away to go for a second wife, are you not rejecting the first calling of God? If God directs you to a first, then a second (assuming you have actually heard this correctly from Him and aren't just following your own lusts), He has not just directed you to marry a second woman. He has directed you to BE married to BOTH women. Your mission is to have BOTH as your wives. If you gain the second but lose the first in the process, or keep the first and fail to gain the second, either way you have failed in your mission. Either way is just as bad as the other, either way you end up monogamous and fail to provide for one of the women God has instructed you to care for. Practically, gaining the second but losing the first is actually worse because it causes much more heartache than just failing to marry the second, so if you do that you've actually gone backwards.

Assuming you have actually heard from God that you should marry a particular woman (until then this is entirely hypothetical), it's your choice as a man what you do. You can reject God's calling and just stick with the first because it's easier. You can rush recklessly at the second part of God's calling and gain the second but lose the first, ending up in a worse situation. Or you can proceed with great caution, care and consideration for both women and actually succeed in being married to both, eventually, possibly after years of work. You've got the authority to choose any of those options, you need the wisdom to know which to choose and how to actually do it.

In terms of having the first wife involved in the courtship, I agree entirely that it isn't her decision. It's your decision. But a sensible husband will always take his wife's views into consideration when making his mind up. If we need a new car I don't just go and buy one. I take my wife, ask her what she thinks about our options, take her thoughts into consideration, and then make a better decision because of her input. Now if you have an angel appear to you and say "marry Susan tomorrow" then you know what you have to do. But in reality you'll probably think "I think God might be saying Susan would make a good second wife, but I'm not sure". If that's the case you'll need to carefully consider whether Susan is the right wife for you. And how well Susan gets on with your first wife will be one valuable element to take into account when considering that. So having them get to know each other would be a very valuable part of the courtship process. It doesn't mean your wife gets to make the decision, it's your decision, but your wife has a brain and is worth listening to. Furthermore the very fact that you value her enough to actually seek her opinion will be very encouraging to her, help her to feel more secure and strengthen your relationship with each other, and keep her as your wife - remembering that keeping her is just as much your mission as marrying Susan is.

So I agree fully that a man is the head of his home. In practically applying his headship though a prudent man will be very loving and considerate to his first wife, listening to her views. This might look from the outside like that means he is giving up authority to her, but that's not necessarily the case. He may actually be following God's calling at an even deeper level than you initially thought.
 
@FollowingHim. I cannot agree with you more on many of your points. Leadership, especially in a Christian home, demands wisdom and obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Helping a wife feel secure (whether while taking a second wife or in day to day living) is a major responsibility of a husband. I totally agree with your view of the role of a first wife during courtship with the second wife. Inform and listen. The role of the first wife in this , once she is aware that a second wife is been considered, is to give her views and continue to pray for her husband: trusting the Lord to direct him. The practice I have some concern about is the concept of "adding to our family" where the wife plays a very leading role; posting advert in personals in some cases. I just think that we should accept the order of the Lord absolutely while trusting husbands, under HIS headship, not to rule arbitrarily.

@FollowingHim, while I am not remotely planning on taking a second wife at the moment, my contributions are on the principle to be had, having recently came to the realization of the righteousness of polygamy. I think I registered here in January this year(or thereabout). I hold no view rigidly until they are grounded in the scripture and looking for others view, particularly supported by the scripture.
 
Aklirich, I agree with your concern about the wife driving this. It's not a good foundation to build on, so the structure is more likely to be unstable. Read the Froggie Family Chronicles in our 'real people's stories' secton for a prime example of plural marriage pursued this way, and the problems that eventuated.

From Curtis' example, if my wife met someone and said she felt God was drawing her into our family, I would listen to her thoughts carefully as I know she is just as capable of hearing from God as I am. I would then take the lead, get to know this person and see if I agreed. If not I wouldn't go there. I would greatly appreciate my wife's input but make the final decision myself. Is that a balanced approach in your views?
 
Yes @FollowingHim, that is a balanced approach in my view. Yes, mentioning a potential wife to the husband but not going ahead to interview the potential second wife. Should the husband say no and at the same time mentioned whom he will really prefer, that should not be a problem.
 
@cwcsmc, the captains analogy is perfect. Husbands should be men of integrity that are humble enough to listen to their heavenly given helps. I like that captains' analogy because, we will all agree that, by and large, travelling by sea and by air is quite safe and orderly (given hundreds of people that can be in a jumbo jet or on a cruise ship per time). Though we have extremely small percentages of accidents in these modes of travels, what they have in common are captains whose authorities are absolutely respected. WE all trust them with that authority. This illustrates my point exactly. In all homes, husbands should be seen as these captains and should be trusted to make right decisions, while wives keep praying and give advice. Are there bad captains? Of course. Are there arrogant husbands? Of course.
 
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